Bruce Jenner Becoming a Woman and more...#2

[Nova]

For the most part (not accounting for chromosomal abnormalities) a biological male will never be female and a biological female will never be male. Even with sex reassignment surgery you still retain the chromosomes you were born with.

You are arbitrarily decreeing that sex is exclusively a biological issue. Transsexuals and their doctors will tell you you are wrong.

And as we know from Olympic testing, some people have two X chromosomes in addition to a Y, and their sex is very much in doubt. Moreover, the latest research shows that hormones may have as much or more to do with sexual identity than chromosomes.

And then there is psychological sex and gender as opposed to physical.

Frankly, it escapes me why this matters to anyone except the individual affected and his/her family! How does it affect me if Caitlyn Jenner decides to live as a woman?

 

[LaLaw2000]

But then is she still their G-pa, or is she their G-ma. Is she still their G-pa but now she's a woman and not a man any more. I don't know the ages of the children but I could see where this could be very very confusing to children regardless of their ages.

I see Jenners' whole change as creating a huge set of issues for these grandchildren.

 

[LaneGirl]

I am just an old Southern grandmother who wishes I could be as sophisticated and as accepting as almost all of you are. I am of the opinion that 'Caitlyn' will always be Bruce Jenner with X chromosomes. I can never refer to him as a 'her'.

The twist is that I am very accepting of gay people and am for gay equality rights.

It takes courage for me to express my views on this because I am sure I will be booed for it. I'm sorry, but I am disgusted by this whole huge display by Bruce Jenner.

MOO

BBM- I think you are who you are. Perhaps you've already refined your acceptance from where you once were. We are always taking in knowledge and learning about one another.

I'm sorry you are disgusted but perhaps look at it from a child going through this same issue feeling suicidal because they are not "normal" and he/she watches this play out in the public. Maybe just maybe this will help one person not feel so bad about themselves. Just a thought.

 

[nrdsb4]

"When I met Bruce, he told me that he had done hormones back in the early ‘80s. This was a conversation that took place in the early ‘90s," Kris explained. "So, what he was telling me happened a decade earlier, and he never really explained it…Nobody mentioned a gender issue."

Looking back, the self-proclaimed momager wishes her ex would have explained her gender dysphoria before they were divorced. "It was the most passive-aggressive thing I think I've ever experienced," Kris told the publication.

Read more: http://www.eonline.com/shows/kardas...r-marriages-to-kris-jenner-and-linda-thompson

This is very confusing to me. If my husband told me that a decade before we got together, he had been taking female hormones, and if I subsequently walked in on him trying on my clothes, there would be a whole lot of ensuing conversation about what all that means. Gender identity issues would be one of the concerns I would have had. I cannot imagine just telling him to cut it out and walking out the door.

I don't understand why she is so surprised. I'm not saying she should have known categorically that he had a gender identity disorder, but he surely gave her clues that there was definitely a serious issue to be addressed which at least peripherally involved his self image, or some other related issues.

Passive aggressive he may be, but it would seem she bears some of the responsibility for a stunning lack of communication that seems so striking in a couple married for 25 years.

On the other hand, as I am not attracted to females, I would not want to stay married to a person who wanted to transition to a female. Hopefully I could ultimately support her and wish her luck, but staying married would not be up for negotiation. I can understand some of her feelings.

 

[LaLaw2000]

To be absolutely honest, I am almost ashamed to feel as unaccepting of Bruce Jenner as I do. But, I am being just as honest when I say he disgusts me.

 

[TigerBalm]

I see Jenners' whole change as creating a huge set of issues for these grandchildren.

The grandchildren will have a much happier grandparent, things could be a lot worse.

 

[Nova]

I am an extremely tolerant person and very accepting of people's differences. It just concerns me when we can become so comfortable with mental disorders. There are people who think they are aliens.....are we discriminating against them if we don't accept their feelings?

Jenner is not analogous to a bipolar person simply choosing to take her meds.

Psychiatry has proven woefully inadequate in treating gender dysphoria with pharmaceuticals or talk therapy. Therefore, the better option for most is to adjust the body and/or the presentation of the body to align with the psychological gender/sex. This isn't pandering, it is currently the closest thing to a CURE.

So, yes, refusing to accept individuals' attempts to avail themselves of the only cure currently available is unfair (and unnecessary) discrimination.

 

[LaneGirl]

To be absolutely honest, I am almost ashamed to feel as unaccepting of Bruce Jenner as I do. But, I am being just as honest when I say he disgusts me.

BBM this is what I see in you.

It's almost like an internal struggle within yourself.

Reading about individuals internal struggles with thoughts of suicide and bulling helped me realize whatever beliefs I had in the past wasn't as important and understanding people are just like me and want love and acceptance.

 

[Nova]

...I don't know whether Caitlin will prove to be a "hero" from my perspective, but she may very well be a hero to those struggling with gender identity. The very fact that she was a man's man and Olympic athlete may be just what is needed to evoke sentiments of tolerance, acceptance, kindness and most of all compassion. IMO

One friend of mine opined that Caitlyn Jenner will be to transsexuality what Rock Hudson was to AIDS: the individual whose fame allows her/him to put a human face on the issue. (This is not to equate transsexuality and AIDS in any other sense.)

 

[TigerBalm]

Thank you all for sharing your opinions on this with me.....I am going to wait and see how much of this transformation is about money and fame before I change my opinion. There are several good articles about this type of disorder and before we go making transgender bathrooms, I hope there are more studies in this area. Back later....

Jenner had both fame and money for 39 years, ever since winning the gold medal in the decathlon event in the 1976 Summer Olympics.

 

[TigerBalm]

Wow.....many people are unhappy due to mental disorders. Dealing with a mental or physical disability can be very challenging and heroic. Dressing in evening gowns with heavy makeup and photoshopping is not heroic in my opinion.

Transgender is not about dressing in evening gowns wearing heavy makeup and photoshop.

 

[LaneGirl]

One friend of mine opined that Caitlyn Jenner will be to transsexuality what Rock Hudson was to AIDS: the individual whose fame allows her/him to put a human face on the issue. (This is not to equate transsexuality and AIDS in any other sense.)

BBM - I love this. Regardless how one feels about Jenner/trans there is a human behind it. Maybe Jenner didn't "come out" to some of our liking. Perhaps we think she should have chosen a different magazine cover. Maybe we wish she wouldn't do a docu-series for money or publicity.

There is still a human behind it with real feelings wanting love and acceptance just like we all want.

 

[LaLaw2000]

BBM this is what I see in you.

It's almost like an internal struggle within yourself.

Reading about individuals internal struggles with thoughts of suicide and bulling helped me realize whatever beliefs I had in the past wasn't as important and understanding people are just like me and want love and acceptance.

BBM:

The bolded statement is true because I wonder if something is lacking in me in that I cannot even have anything other than disgust for Bruce Jenner.

ETA: I just have to add that I respect everyone's opinion and beliefs here.

 

[Nova]

I'm in favor of straight talking. Children often undersrand more than we think, if someone just takes the time to explain in their own language. It would be a good time to talk about tolerance and discrimination and how we sometimes value people on the basis of the outside although the inner feelings may matter much more.

Depending on the age I might start by asking them if they think they're girl or a boy and pointing out that thinking you're a girl and having girly equipment are actually two different things, and what do you think would happen if you thought you were a girl but others thought you were a boy or if you suddenly ended up in the wrong body and so on. There are some cool children's books about this. Then I'd explain about transgenderism in language that they can understand, that some people feel more like girls even though their genitals make people think of them as boys, or vice versa, and that gender isn't just about the genitals but also a sense of identity and feeling comfortable in yourself.

And your grandfather hasn't stopped loving you you although she now looks very different from most other children's grandpas.

Donjeta, I so appreciate all of your thoughtful and compassionate posts in this thread!

I would add to your remarks above only that we should be careful not to explain more than children want/need to know.

Being gay is not the same as being transsexual, of course, and this thread is ample evidence that everyone seems to understand the difference. But to use my own family as an example, we (or their parents) simply explained to each grandchild in turn that Grandpa Nova and "Grandpa Mr. Nova" live together because they love each other.

That answer proved perfectly adequate (even very young children understand living with people who love them) until about the time the grandkids reached their teens and asked which of us was their biological grandfather. At that point their parents explained that my husband is their biological grandfather, but that doesn't mean that Grandpa Nova loves them any less.

Etc. and so forth. Children seem to have an uncanny knack for asking just as much as they need to know. I'd be wary of explaining theories of sexual identity the first time a child asks why "Grandpa" is now "Grandma".

 

[LaneGirl]

BBM:

The bolded statement is true because I wonder if something is lacking in me in that I cannot even have anything other than disgust for Bruce Jenner.

The simple fact that you wonder about this, is a step towards understanding. Understanding and knowledge is what makes us realize this is a person wanting love and acceptance just like you do.

Maybe you smoke. I personally dislike smoke but maybe you grew up in a smokers home, maybe you started to be "cool" in high school then got hooked. Maybe it calms your nerves and maybe just maybe it makes you happy. When I learn about you that you are a grandmother, southerner, painfully honest and feel ashamed of the way you feel sometimes, I think I can get past her smoking she has her reasons its not for me but there are things about you that I like so whatever strong feeling I have about smoking lessens. As I get to really know you I probably won't even think about how much I dislike it at all (except maybe concern for your health).

I'm not sure if this analogy is good but as I said about another analogy I mentioned earlier I will own it.

 

[grammieto5]

I see Jenners' whole change as creating a huge set of issues for these grandchildren.

Yep! That’s what I’m thinking about. I have 5 G-kids and I wonder how they would feel if Pop Pop was no longer Pop Pop, if he started wearing dresses, makeup, looking female, acting female. I would think my G-kids would be a little confused. And I know for sure at least one would have serious problems with the change. I guess we won’t know for a few years how it affects any of the children. I’m sure the media will through the years keep tract of the children.

 

[Nova]

I am just an old Southern grandmother who wishes I could be as sophisticated and as accepting as almost all of you are. I am of the opinion that 'Caitlyn' will always be Bruce Jenner with X chromosomes. I can never refer to him as a 'her'.

The twist is that I am very accepting of gay people and am for gay equality rights.

It takes courage for me to express my views on this because I am sure I will be booed for it. I'm sorry, but I am disgusted by this whole huge display by Bruce Jenner.

MOO

I think of you as a model of tolerance and a champion of the underdog, LA. So I'll tell you one of my deepest, darkest secrets and hope you won't report me to an LGBT advocacy group: I too used to feel a bit queasy around transsexuals. Although everyone used the one queer bar in the small, Southern city where I first came out, I later avoided "tranny" bars when I moved to a large city. I just wasn't comfortable, unless the context was a stage show.

HOWEVER, as time passed and I met more transsexuals--including most recently an in-law--I got more comfortable and confirmed what I knew all along: the discomfort was entirely in my own mind.

I'm comfortable with the people and the concept now, but I will not be throwing stones at you, my friend.

 

[LaneGirl]

I play this game all the time with my gkids....

me - would you still love me if I grow a beard (happens to some women when we age I didn't ask because of trans issues).
gkid - of course gma

me - would you still love me if my teeth fall out (will happen and I proceed to talk like I have no teeth)
gkid- laughing of course gma

me - would you still love me if I had an arm coming out of my back (probably won't happen)
gkid- of course gma laughing again

Kids are pretty amazing they surprise me every-time.

I'm not saying as the Jenner gkids get older they won't have to face ridicule for this very public time but they will face ridicule about being rich, a Kardashian, being on TV etc. As long as they feel loved and they will be fine.

 

[LaLaw2000]

I think of you as a model of tolerance and a champion of the underdog, LA. So I'll tell you one of my deepest, darkest secrets and hope you won't report me to an LGBT advocacy group: I too used to feel a bit queasy around transsexuals. Although everyone used the one queer bar in the small, Southern city where I first came out, I later avoided "tranny" bars when I moved to a large city. I just wasn't comfortable, unless the context was a stage show.

HOWEVER, as time passed and I met more transsexuals--including most recently an in-law--I got more comfortable and confirmed what I knew all along: the discomfort was entirely in my own mind.

I'm comfortable with the people and the concept now, but I will not be throwing stones at you, my friend.

Thanks, Nova. I have a tremendous respect for you.

 

[Nova]

Yep! That’s what I’m thinking about. I have 5 G-kids and I wonder how they would feel if Pop Pop was no longer Pop Pop, if he started wearing dresses, makeup, looking female, acting female. I would think my G-kids would be a little confused. And I know for sure at least one would have serious problems with the change. I guess we won’t know for a few years how it affects any of the children. I’m sure the media will through the years keep tract of the children.

In my experience, children take their cues from the reactions of their parents. If the latter act like the sky is falling, the children will be alarmed; otherwise, not so much.

But I don't know the ages of your grandkids. Teens, especially, are struggling with all sorts of identity issues and attempting to separate themselves from their parents and grandparents.

In the case of our son, for example, it was important that we carefully explain that his father being gay didn't mean he would automatically inherit the trait. (And he did not.)

If some of your grandkids are teens, it would be fair to tell them they would probably have at least an inkling by now if they had gender dysphoria.