Thanks Brown -- yeah, I just don't agree with that; makes very little sense to me and requires JR to be psychic and omniscient. Why (or how) would a father assume/know that his daughter was killed by his wife and/or nine year old son, without even the slightest inclination beforehand?
Burke Ramsey Files 750 Million Dollar Lawsuit Against CBS
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Thanks Brown -- yeah, I just don't agree with that; makes very little sense to me and requires JR to be psychic and omniscient. Why (or how) would a father assume/know that his daughter was killed by his wife and/or nine year old son, without even the slightest inclination beforehand?
How do we know he didn't have an inkling? Thomas says that when Arndt asked White, Fernie and Ramsey for their observations about the ransom note, John was unusually quiet.
Why didn't they drop off the final gift? They had some kind of "debate" (translation: argument) in the car. Maybe Patsy suspected he didn't spend the whole afternoon with his plane. The Vanity Affair article, as I recall, suggested that John was a serial adulterer in his first marriage.
We know that John witnessed an extended fight between Patsy and Jonbenet in the afternoon over the red turtleneck.
If Patsy killed Jonbenet in a rage, it was unlikely to be silent. If John pulled the covers over his head, these fights must have been a common occurrence.
It's too big a leap. It's one thing to have arguments on Christmas afternoon and evening; it's another thing to flat-out know your wife killed your daughter the next day. If he heard the night before, and pieced it together, he would have confronted his wife; he wouldn't have simply let it go -- why would he? According to the maids, they were never affectionate toward one another. If you suspected your wife just killed your daughter, and you were in a loveless marriage, would you simply let it go?
But he wouldn't know at the beginning. When Jonbenet couldn't be found, he wouldn't just assume she was dead. Because it is such a big leap. He wouldn't know she was dead until he found the body at 11 am, as he told his son-in-law (I think).
Arndt said that John was relaxed at the beginning, even joking. Then he was gone for a while. When he came back, he was nervous and quiet. It would be hard to decide what to do. Maybe it occurred to him that Patsy hated him so much, she might implicate him. It probably wouldn't occur to him that she already had.
Okay, but still -- do you know how difficult it would have been for him to have no idea she was dead; then to stumble upon her body? I think any father in that position would have freaked the eff out immediately upon finding her; and I think the reason he began to get nervous was because he knew the cops were literally setting up a command station in the last place (his house) he wanted a bunch of cops.
And I think the assault might have had two phases.
Patsy didn't claim that JonBenet went to the toilet before she went to bed. She had a bedwetting problem so she probably would wet the bed. When Patsy checked her at midnight, as was her practice, she would find that JonBenet'd had soiled the red turtleneck. She'd fouled her pants earlier. Uh-oh. So there would be yelling and crying, but that was probably a common occurrence around there.
If Jonbenet was anything like my kid, she would be hungry late at night. Because I was tired, I could get in a lather. Tortoises ate faster than my kid. I was careful to keep my distance and my hands free of heavy objects. I think Patsy bashed Jonbenet with the flashlight on the top of her head as she sat at the kitchen table. I think it would be loud but on the third floor, especially, you wouldn't know what it was.
Patsy didn't claim that JonBenet went to the toilet before she went to bed. She had a bedwetting problem so she probably would wet the bed. When Patsy checked her at midnight, as was her practice, she would find that JonBenet'd had soiled the red turtleneck. She'd fouled her pants earlier. Uh-oh. So there would be yelling and crying, but that was probably a common occurrence around there.
If Jonbenet was anything like my kid, she would be hungry late at night. Because I was tired, I could get in a lather. Tortoises ate faster than my kid. I was careful to keep my distance and my hands free of heavy objects. I think Patsy bashed Jonbenet with the flashlight on the top of her head as she sat at the kitchen table. I think it would be loud but on the third floor, especially, you wouldn't know what it was.
As time dragged on, he would know something was up, not just a practical joke, what with Patsy projectile vomiting next door.
First things first. Did John sleep through the night or not? If he got up and showered while Patsy conspicuously neglected to bother about this rather important part of her alibi, preferring to look like she'd been up all night murdering someone, and there's corroboration that John showered, shaved and brushed his teeth, then that's what happened.
I can agree there may have been a dispute in the bathroom between JBR and PR; I would even say, there may have been multiple trips (by PR) to her bedroom throughout that night concerning the issue.
I can't agree on JR and how he would react (or rather, wouldn't) react upon stumbling upon his dead daughter without any (or very little) inkling.
Why would PR attack her at the kitchen? I think the attack would take place in the bathroom. I think JR was well aware what happened far before police arrived. His fibers found on JBR's undergarment indicate as much.
I can't agree on JR and how he would react (or rather, wouldn't) react upon stumbling upon his dead daughter without any (or very little) inkling.
Why would PR attack her at the kitchen? I think the attack would take place in the bathroom. I think JR was well aware what happened far before police arrived. His fibers found on JBR's undergarment indicate as much.
otg
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I agree with you here, Userid. I don't buy John's innocence prior to BPD showing up. I don't know all of Kolar's reasoning, but he tells us two reasons that he (like Steve Thomas) thinks John wasn't aware of what happened until just before noon. One reason alone could be more easily discounted. But with two, they both (Kolar and Thomas) gave it more credence.
They both thought Arndt's description of the change in John's demeanor after having lost track of him was significant. Then add to that the statement reported by his future son-in-law that John told them he had found JonBenét at 11:00 am, and they both felt that it was then that he had his epiphany and figured out what had happened. Kolar felt that John figured out that Burke was responsible, and Thomas felt that John figured out that Patsy was responsible. (I know.) I don't agree with either conclusion; but then, I don't agree with other things in Kolar's or Thomas' theory either.
The following is from Kolar's AMA:
[]FrankieHellis 9 points 2 years ago
Do you believe he had not known it was down there before this discovery?
[]jameskolar[F,S] 16 points 2 years ago
An evaluation of the statement made by John, which I considered to be a spontaneous utterance that formed criminal culpability, suggests that he was not aware that her body was downstairs until he went roaming after the 1000 am ransom failed to come.
He became an accessory to crime when he failed to tell Det. Arndt that he had discovered the body. His beeline to the basement later with Fleet was thought to be a ruse.
Arndt had her hands full with the house packed with friends, and with Patsy, who was extremely distraught, puking and crying..
[]FrankieHellis 12 points 2 years ago
This makes no sense though. If he didn't know where the body was then he wasn't part of it. If he wasn't part of it, then why would he cover for family members who were? Wouldn't he assume it had been an intruder?
[]jameskolar[F,S] 17 points 2 years ago
Think it through. What reason would he have to cover for family, and if he did, wouldn't he then become an accessory after the fact?
The changing story line of his statements over the following months was indicative of deception.
If he recognized Patsy's handwriting, and her 'turn of phrase' in the ransom note, why would he think there was an intruder involved?
[]pantherplane 3 points 2 years ago*
Why would John not call 911 then? Being described as "calm" and cordial it seems he would opposed to the "hysterical" Patsy.
[]jameskolar[F,S] 11 points 2 years ago
Good question. I suspect that he was trying very hard to make sense of the ransom note and told her to go ahead and call police while he studied it.
[]ElectricGypsy 2 points 2 years ago
I wish I could give you 1000 points for this post!!!
[]FrankieHellis 2 points 2 years ago
Thank you!
[]pantherplane 4 points 2 years ago
What about John being heard in the 911 call?
[]jameskolar[F,S] 8 points 2 years ago
There is no disputing that he was nearby. He was on his hands and knees in the hallway outside the kitchen examining the ransom note when Patsy called 911
[]got-gum[F] (C'est moi.) 3 points 2 years ago
But that is according to the Ramseys' account. According to them he was still in his underwear reading the note. But from the end of the 911 call until Ofc. French arrived (less than 7 minutes), they claim he ran up the stairs (two flights), got dressed, looked in on Burke, searched briefly for JonBenet, and then got back to the first floor just inside the front door hallway to be seen by Ofc. French when he walked in the door. (No mention that I know of about his being out of breath.)
[]jameskolar[F,S] 6 points 2 years ago
I know, many unanswered questions about the events of that night and morning.
Thanks OTG, good to see you again. Yeah, I'm with you -- that still doesn't wash why he would protect PR. The change in demeanor could have been from something other than finding the body; it could have been from finishing up the staging itself, just to use one example. Or from the feeling of the walls around him caving in with the continuous police presence.
otg,
If JR just awoke to JonBenet being abducted, how come fibers from his Israeli manufactured shirt, i.e. foreign wool, arrived on JonBenet's thighs?
Bear in mind JR says he never helped Patsy undress JonBenet for bed.
In case you think JR's version of events supports him experiencing an epiphany regarding Patsy's or BR's role in the circumstances he found himself, apparently underwear-lite. Then how come he goes from BR was asleep to, oops, BR was awake during the 911 call !
JR has explanations for the broken window, the chair in front of the door, the samsonite suitcase, the flashlight and they all involve him.
So discounting telepathy how did JR know what required explaining away?
Another turn or switch was after telling a BPD officer that is was an Inside Job, e.g. framing poor ole LHP, at a later date he had another epiphany with Lou Smit where it just had to be an Intruder, this was rationlized away as the product of two devout religious minds communing in prayer.
All three Ramsey's have colluded in the death and staging of JonBenet, the GJ True Bills confirm this as regards the parents, BR well thats a Colorado State Secret !
Neither James Kolar or Steve Thomas know in detail what took place that fateful night and into the following morning. So they just invent a plausible narrative for their books.
Its possible the parents do not know all the details either, otherwise the staging would be more complete, e.g. Breakfast Bar cleaned up, JonBenet's bed tidied up, with JonBenet wearing her own clothes etc, after all its a homicide staging.
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The fibers from John's shirt in JonBenet's crotch only tell you that his shirt was there. It's also possible that Patsy abstracted fibers from the shirt and planted them rather than grabbing the whole shirt. From their questioning It's clear the police think Patsy was responsible for the fibers and wanted John to know it.
We don't know what evidence the police have that John was telling the truth about the early morning, but the police probably checked the state of both their bathrooms.
We don't know what evidence the police have that John was telling the truth about the early morning, but the police probably checked the state of both their bathrooms.
Cottonstar
Case Analyst | Expert in Staged Crimes
I believe, JR was, and still is the CEO of the cover-up. His dictation is peppered throughout the note.
Staging the crime as an inside job is probably the number 1 give away that JR was involved from the get-go.
JR, not rushing to BRs room after finding the note, and feverishly ask him a ton a questions is a give-away. As is Were not speaking to you-
CS
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Staging the crime as an inside job is probably the number 1 give away that JR was involved from the get-go.
JR, not rushing to BRs room after finding the note, and feverishly ask him a ton a questions is a give-away. As is Were not speaking to you-
CS
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yes absolutely he ceo-ed the whole cover up.
I hear him speak post jonbenet death and the lingo he uses is definitely within that note.
comes to mind off the cuff he told a reporter she should be returned from the police for proper burial.
the ransom note writer/dictator was fond of this terminology too.
some take his change of behaviour after 10am as a sign he suddenly became aware of the murder. I find this idea unfathomable because how would he know innocently finding her that patsy or burke did it????
he had cops upstairs and he would have buckled then and there. assuming an outsider didit...no doubt in my mind. he had no reason to delay finding her and bringing it to police attention if that were the case.
I think as the hours passed so did his levels of adrenaline.....fear...fatigue....sadness....reality setting in.
easy to explain being all over the shop to me. these people were devastated. even at their own making and trying to hide what they did.
very tricky indeed to keep it together. they didn't know they were going to get through it without getting caught.
Cottonstar
Case Analyst | Expert in Staged Crimes
I agree. JR was getting nervous. He had no idea the kidnapping ruse would be going on STILL, after 6-7 hours. JR was told the FBI was on the way soon. Kind of convenient for him that he found her 10 minutes before the FBI walked in the door.
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Cottonstar
Case Analyst | Expert in Staged Crimes
One of the biggest mistakes they made in the ransom note, was using the $118,000 amount for ransom. Since they decided to go all in on staging it to be an inside job, they thought that it was a great idea to use this amount because only a few insiders would know this amount(LHP, Merrick). But, in hindsight, this really nails down the Rams to the note.
It was clever, but once you eliminate LHP and Merrick as suspects, it leaves only YOU.
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It was clever, but once you eliminate LHP and Merrick as suspects, it leaves only YOU.
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Cottonstar
Case Analyst | Expert in Staged Crimes
JR not telling his best friend, Fleet White, about the ransom note.
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We don't agree on much, but we can agree on this. That is why the money figure was used, etc. JR helped orchestrate the note in order to stage an "inside job" (what he said when he brought JBR upstairs).
Wasn't it also convenient that they found duct tape and bindings that matched the ones on JBR in LHP's residence after the murder (if I remember correctly; heard this on a television special)? Makes you wonder if they were either planted at LHP's house soon after the murder or if the R's knew LHP had these particular items at her house, and used them specifically while staging the body.
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