Burlap and Forensics

[bessie]

I suppose the "Burlap Sack" theory has been beat to death but I felt the need to mention burlap sacks are used in the Oyster Industry as well as farming/nursery uses. Has anyone contemplated fishing industry uses of burlap sacks? At the end of this video (link posted) the oyster farmer shows his oysters in the water in oyster sacks which are not what I am used to seeing them in. I lived for 10 years on Gulf Coast of Texas & you could go to the marina & purchase a burlap bag of un-shucked oysters for around $30.00 & just this week I saw a bag (same burlap kind I'm used to seeing) of un-shucked oysters for sale in my local grocery store here in South Carolina.

There is some conversation about oysters/fishing beginning with rhis post.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12950310

I'm sure there are other similar posts further back in this thread or others, because I know the topic has been diacussed off and on over the years.

 

[relay]

I've stated this before but want to post my opinion regarding burlap again. I believe that the killer's CHOICE to use burlap is more significant that the fact that burlap can be readily purchased. How many victims nationwide, who were discarded in bags of any type were discarded in burlap? I don't know, but I believe it is not common. How many victims's remains who are discarded via any type of bag are discarded in plastic bags? Most, I believe.

 

[kat913]

Bad experience with plastic perhaps? Needed more durability? Matched sand landscape? More natural fibers?

 

[Skully]

I clicked on a thread at the bottom of this page, about Andrew Weible. He confessed to killing his wife, Ruth, in 1995. She was recovered in 2014 or ID in or around 2007, not clear on the date. He put her in a burlap sack. My point is, most use what they have on hand, or can get easily. I don't think he went out of his way to get this sack or burlap yardage. I am not clear as to which was used, but if he used a sack, it shows disrespect for the victims. If he wrapped them, he may have been preforming a ritual of some kind. Spacing the bodies, out, wrapping them all the same, shows he is reliving the crime perhaps, each time. Since VICAP is not used by all LE, there is a possibility that he is still killing and reliving it someplace else. We either didn't put it in VICAP or we haven't found the dumping grounds.

 

[relay]

Bad experience with plastic perhaps? Needed more durability? Matched sand landscape? More natural fibers?

Plastic bags better hold in materials from released from a body which would help prevent "evidence" from escaping into a vehicle, boat, primary murder scene or onto the killer(s) himself(selves). Most murderers would know this, and if they didn't, they would soon learn once they place the body(ies) into a burlap bag.

As a vet tech in the past, when animals, even small ones, die, even thick blankets, much more absorbent than burlap, sometimes leak. A human body, even with no open wounds, often leaks bodily material. So, I tend toward the idea that if the killer(s) initially used burlap but also realized leakage was a potential problem, said killer(s) would be more inclined to then place a body(ies) into plastic (i.e. plastic bags, plastic shower curtain, etc.). I think he/they may simply take remains and place them, burlap remaining, into the plastic. Less messy. We don't know factually if the REPORTED burlap encased remains were then placed into plastic, but I would imagine if true it would likely have leaked out by now (OMG. No punn intended . ).

My point is, that it may be that the killer(s) might not have believed remains leakage in his/their case would be a potential problem suggesting the possibility that the killer(s) had a private murder scene in which he/they felt safe. And, I still believe the killer(s) reported use of burlap suggests familiarity and comfort using burlap. Important points I am making? I don't know. But, I think they may be. MOO in all of the above.

 

[FindHG]

I suppose the "Burlap Sack" theory has been beat to death but I felt the need to mention burlap sacks are used in the Oyster Industry as well as farming/nursery uses. Has anyone contemplated fishing industry uses of burlap sacks? At the end of this video (link posted) the oyster farmer shows his oysters in the water in oyster sacks which are not what I am used to seeing them in. I lived for 10 years on Gulf Coast of Texas & you could go to the marina & purchase a burlap bag of un-shucked oysters for around $30.00 & just this week I saw a bag (same burlap kind I'm used to seeing) of un-shucked oysters for sale in my local grocery store here in South Carolina. [video=vimeo;6825095]https://vimeo.com/6825095[/video]

Ashburnkaren, thank you so much for your continued input. This is very interesting to note, as over the last few years the preservation efforts along the Long Island coast have involved revitalizing the local oyster farming too.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/36800.html

 

[ps149]

Everyone in the world who hears this case makes the assumption that the bodies were stuffed into burlap and transported there. But if you walk the salt water marshes of Jones Island near Gilgo and Oak Beach, there is often burlap placed there. I don't know if it's because it's used to hold sand to combat erosion or if it's because the county vector control workers use it for other reasons such as this;

Seeds may be collected locally and propagated for
planting as stems or plugs. Spartina alterniflora seed should be harvested near
maturity but prior to shattering (usually in August-early September in the northeast).
Seed heads may be clipped with knives or shears. Harvested seed should be
transferred to burlap sacks for temporary storage and kept moist under refrigeration,
for 3-4 weeks before threshing.

SOURCE: NEW YORK STATE
SALT MARSH RESTORATION
AND MONITORING GUIDELINES

All I'm sayin is that don't make yet another assumption that the burlap was purchased by the killers and brought there with the bodies. It could just be that burlap that was already there was used to cover the bodies so that they blended in with the terrain as the color of burlap when it is decomposing is the same color as the marsh grass when it dies.

 

[lissasun]

Kinda of knew to this and figuring out how to post. The burlap made me think of landscaping material and made me wonder what if sewing the bags from it isn't part of his MO. He stages the bodies so why wouldn't he pay attention to the bags as well? If he worked for a landscaping company it comes in rolls and disolves into the ground once the landscaping established. Maybe the other ones aren't in burlap cause he no longer works for the company.

 

[FindHG]

Kinda of knew to this and figuring out how to post. The burlap made me think of landscaping material and made me wonder what if sewing the bags from it isn't part of his MO. He stages the bodies so why wouldn't he pay attention to the bags as well? If he worked for a landscaping company it comes in rolls and disolves into the ground once the landscaping established. Maybe the other ones aren't in burlap cause he no longer works for the company.

:Welcome1:​

lissasun, you make a lot of sense. I agree, given how every aspect of these murders seem planned, somehow left obstructed and unsolved, I doubt the perp just beach combed for burlap. Thank you for joining. Please let me know if I can help you figure thing out or need any help. I look forward to more of your perspective.

What just keep wonder why LE would not release at least images of the burlap? There may be a good reason for that, but what could that be, besides not wanting to draw more attention to these crimes?

 

[No it's not]

Everyone in the world who hears this case makes the assumption that the bodies were stuffed into burlap and transported there. But if you walk the salt water marshes of Jones Island near Gilgo and Oak Beach, there is often burlap placed there. I don't know if it's because it's used to hold sand to combat erosion or if it's because the county vector control workers use it for other reasons such as this;

SOURCE: NEW YORK STATE
SALT MARSH RESTORATION
AND MONITORING GUIDELINES

All I'm sayin is that don't make yet another assumption that the burlap was purchased by the killers and brought there with the bodies. It could just be that burlap that was already there was used to cover the bodies so that they blended in with the terrain as the color of burlap when it is decomposing is the same color as the marsh grass when it dies.

It's a good thought, but I doubt it would be practical. The killer ("dumper") would have to first locate readily available burlap possibly in the dark using a flashlight, while the body to be dumped is still in their vehicle. And that would have had to have happened up to 4 times. Lot of risk, more risk than just using burlap stock. Going there during the daytime, parking a vehicle, looking for burlap, remembering the spot, coming back again, too complex and risky. This was done quickly, otherwise he would have buried the bodies. Just my thoughts.

-Nin

 

[Salsa]

I do not know if this picture has been posted before but i remembered someone asking if there was a picture of the burlap and I ran across one when reading old articles.

 

[bessie]

Salsa, can you give us a link to the source, please? :tyou:

Reminder for all: any published material, i.e., photographic, written articles, must be accompanied by a link to the source.

Rules: Etiquette and Information

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2279603

 

[Salsa]

Yes of course. The article has an overhead view of the crime scene. These were the best pictures I have seen yet in an article.

http://www.maxim.com/maxim-man/long-island-murder-mystery

 

[FindHG]

Yes of course. The article has an overhead view of the crime scene. These were the best pictures I have seen yet in an article.

http://www.maxim.com/maxim-man/long-island-murder-mystery

I do not know if this picture has been posted before but i remembered someone asking if there was a picture of the burlap and I ran across one when reading old articles.

Thank you very much Salsa, you're great to find this. Is the burlap sack shown one of the actual sacks? If it is, it looks like sacks that rice would come in, with those little loose end of the threads.

Whatever material the NY State Trooper is handling seems blue in color, like boat tarp possibly. That's strange because the idea that it could have been someone kayaking along the coast had crossed my mind.

http://www.shelter-systems.com/kayak.html

http://www.maxim.com/maxim-man/long-island-murder-mystery

[...]

"But the stretch along Ocean Parkway is mostly state park: poison-ivy-choked scrub brush, marshland, and beaches, with the occasional cluster of homes hugging the shoreline. During the winter it’s practically deserted."

[...]

"The burlap bags point to a landscaper or clam digger, but the killer’s skill in avoiding detection and capture has led some to speculate that he’s a member of law enforcement."

 

[Salsa]

I do not know positively, but he is handling it with gloves and it looks like a drawstring he is pulling. My eyes take it in as burlap over plastic? Were the bones or body parts removed and he is taking the burlap in alone as evidence or is this burlap from the other scenes away from the 4 with dismembered parts? Or only bone remains? Someone else probably has more sense then me regarding this. :thinking:

I only now noticed this police officer has a camera laying on his back, so this is evidence of some sort.

Okay wait, i thought at first the longer section was plastic poking out but looking again I believe that is a bone protruding. I feel really awful and depressed seeing that.

 

[pipingplover]

Is there any other evidence than the ex boyfriend saying that the police said she was found in Burlap? This seems strange. Did he misremember? I understand why it would be put in the show because it is intriguing but I don't know if I am buying it. Is there any access to those police reports? That would definitely be something that homicide detectives would make note of, as it could be an important clue. I wonder if the documentarians tried to get FOIA on this. In any case if it is true, it would be a game changer.

 

[Super Sleuth]

There are so many places to get burlap from. For example: http://www.ace-bag.com/burlap.html

I'm still trying to figure out how the burlap sacks lead to Bissett

 

[ps149]

Did my research and learned that one of the reasons why there are often so much random burlap bags along Long Island beaches/dunes is that both the Army Corp of Engineers as well as NYS use burlap to make sandbags to combat erosion. There has been extensive work done over the years along Ocean Parkway. NYS claims to have OVER 200,000 burlap sandbags stockpiled ready for deployment at any time. This is in addition to the hundreds of thousands of bags that they and the army corp of engineers have already placed along the beaches over the years.

In addition, I've discovered that many volunteer organizations as well as state agencies utilize burlap sacks for beach cleanup projects. It's what is done and burlap on the beaches is EXTREMELY common!



https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-issues-update-tropical-storm-hermine

 

[PositiveLight]

The picture looks like a small foot imho. I think the blue areas we are seeing may be blue jeans?
Has it been said if the burlap bags were used before the bodies being placed inside?
Was there some type of material found inside the bags to tell if it was used for oysters for example?
Or were they brand new never been used before?

 

[PositiveLight]

I'm trying to remember if the child was found in the burlap sacks?

"Of the ten bodies or sets of remains found since late 2010, the four discovered in December 2010 have been identified as missing prostitutes who all advertised their services on Craigslist. They had all been strangled and their bodies wrapped in burlap sacks before being dumped along Gilgo Beach.[25] All are believed to have been killed elsewhere."

If they were "wrapped" in burlap and not inside the bags, then that could be something worth pondering.
Why did they only wrap them? Was this person (LISK) normally seen with burlap in his truck? Was his job and truck identifiable as someone who uses burlap often? Like a seafood or landscaping business for example.
In other words, no one would question piles of burlap in the bed of his truck.
I would think the bags of sand at Gilgo Beach would be difficult to empty of sand. Most of the time they harden and/or are fragile from being in the elements.
One of the bodies date back to 1996 if I'm not mistaken? The fire island victim? If so there's no way they have the right age bracket for the unsub. He would be a baby when the fire island victim died. I'd place him more in the 40-60 age range. If the fire island victim is in fact a victim of LISK of course. What bugs me is where were some of her remains located prior to being dumped later at the site of the other victims.
I remember reading a book by James Patterson, "Kiss the Girls" where two SK's were communicating and compare their kills and bragging. They were on opposite coasts. Of course its not a true crime story but I've always wondered if in fact some SK's do communicate with others. Maybe the bodies found in the woody area that had some of the remains also on Gilgo was another SK trying to take credit for those bodies too. Kinda like a turf war.
I'm sure that now with technology as it is, there are underground networks where they can brag about their killings etc.
It's a dark world out there and nothing surprises me anymore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_serial_killer