CA - 13 victims, ages 2 to 29, shackled in home by parents, Perris, 15 Jan 2018 #8

[Sunny Texas]

Im still over on Thread 7, but I just wanted to address something. Maybe many others have addressed it and im repeating...but....

DT's brother expressed interest in adopting the kids. DT's brother wrote a book on fasting for many many days. He is extreme in his religious ways (IMO). What else is he extreme on? Can you even imagine if that man adopted those kids and started forcing them to FAST for 'spiritual' reasons even???!!! I hope and pray this never ever ever becomes an option for these kids!!! The horror

Back to reading. This case will forever haunt me.

(btw. my father is a retired pastor and I grew up having to fast now and then. I alway snuck food. It never lasted 12 days though. ugh)

Many religions encourage the discipline of fasting. Non-religious people also sometimes encourage fasting for health purposes, etc. Fasting isn't a problem if it is a personal choice, for whatever reason it is done. Fasting would only be a problem if someone imposed it on others. I have personally practiced fasting, but I would never have forced my children to do so. If they personally felt they wanted to fast, I would encourage them to refrain from a favorite food or to fast from something they enjoyed, like TV or video games. It is wrong to speculate that someone who advocates or practices fasting for religious purposes is an unsuitable caregiver to others.

 

[Cherp75]

Hi everybody. I'm new to WS and this is my first post in a forum, so please be patient if I am a bit basic.

I have read so much about this case, but still feel like I am catching up. Being in Australia, I have a sneaky feeling that we are not necessarily getting the full story in our media coverage, and it is very difficult to find good links amongst all the rubbish online. I am very happy to have found this forum. Although I haven’t been able to read everything here, I feel like I am catching up. Thank you.

Could I ask a couple of things that are on my mind? (Apologies in advance as I am sure these may have been answered elsewhere):

Is there a floor plan / layout of the house in Perris anywhere? I am struggling to understand how the home was actually put together. eg where the bedrooms were.

The years gap between the penultimate survivor (#12) and the baby (#13) bothers me. I don’t subscribe to the idea that the baby is not biologically LTs child, but I wonder why there were no conceptions / births in between. The possibility of a baby / infant who deceased in between is quite strong - and might have provided the impetus for the eventual escape - eg the older siblings worrying what might happen to #13 as she grew out of the "honeymoon" stage of baby cuteness.

In all the pictures I have seen, the eldest female survivor (#1) and second eldest male survivor (#4) appear the most frail - #4 in particular. At times he looks unable to lift his arms and legs easily, and holds his head at strange angles. I wonder if he has some sort of neurological condition (eg Multiple Sclerosis or similar – probably in my thoughts as my son has MS) or if this is inflicted neurological harm due to the abuse.

The picture where the survivors are in different tshirts also plays on my mind. I don’t have the link but I saw it here. I think (but hard to tell) the shirts are all Disney characters - Aristocats, Lady and The Tramp, Toy Story, ?One of the teeny shows about a band - and one of the boys is (I think) wearing a Darth Maul shirt from Star Wars.

Given the fixation on dressing everyone alike it seems unusual to have a range of different shirts - implying they may have been gifted. The photo is clearly in the home, and everyone is barefoot. The pants are obviously new (or at least really well laundered and not that old) - but they dont fit. I think a bulk buy from an outlet store where maybe only one or two sizes were available, as a quick fix to allow a "thank you" photos to be sent to the gifter. Notice also that the three boys are at the back - meaning you cant see their legs (?to hide the fact that they are in pink pants - or maybe dressed in old/dirty/unsuitable clothing)

Just a few thoughts. Thanks for reading.

 

[Jackalyn]

Bit that is choosing for them. It should be the 13 themselves who make the choice.

 

[Satch]

The hospital staffs, (the kids are being treated at two different medical centers.) in their communications thought it would be fun for the kids to have an iPad. If you could be fun stuff for the kids, what would you give them? Or expose them to fun stuff? What do you think that they would like? Now this assumes that they have the essential needs of life first like clean clothes, clean facilities, comfortable beds, and and can get comfortable with hygiene and personal grooming skills.

In other words, if you could be with the Turpin kids for a day, what would you give them? Fun places you would take them? So many things! First of all I would ask them, what they wanted to do that would be fun and special for them? Since they were deprived of food, I would bring fast food for them. So that they could eat hamburgers, pizza, and tacos. Stuff that they never in there lives. I think it is going to be so exciting for them to see a new world that they have never known! I think that the kids would really love a laptop computer! And we know that they were allowed to write. I think that they would enjoy expressing themselves.

Most importantly, I would be there as a good listener and friend to help them and guide them through the life they never had.

Satch

 

[rsd1200]

The developmental levels of children’s drawings by Lowenfeld indicate to me it was drawn by a 4-6 year old. The fingers on the hands are very telling as to age.

I asked the spouse. While our young ones could draw concentric circles, I doubt that large, and wide, nor continuous. That's high up, and then to add a head, reaching 6' at the top, equal to the top of the door-facing, and the bottom part at around 3' above the floor. Then again my spouse said they'd likely had a whole lot of time to practice...

My spouse's reaction to the expression on the face was that it was neither happy, nor sad, just, "there", basically, expressionless. The circles that seemed to have been erased, and drawn over, may have been erased because they were first or 2nd tries and they were trying to get them just right. The circles remind me more of Kadinksky dot circles, with some stuff added, for creativity, or afterthought. Since homeschooling may have been beginning, they could have had a Kadinsky dot art lesson, and got bored.

https://josettebrouwer.edublogs.org/files/2012/01/IMG_3853-23r3s07.jpg

https://www.tes.com/lessons/QYtYMMwqMepHcg/5th-grade-circle-loom-weaving-w-kandinsky-painted-plates

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Hi everybody. I'm new to WS and this is my first post in a forum, so please be patient if I am a bit basic.

I have read so much about this case, but still feel like I am catching up. Being in Australia, I have a sneaky feeling that we are not necessarily getting the full story in our media coverage, and it is very difficult to find good links amongst all the rubbish online. I am very happy to have found this forum. Although I haven’t been able to read everything here, I feel like I am catching up. Thank you.

Could I ask a couple of things that are on my mind? (Apologies in advance as I am sure these may have been answered elsewhere):

Is there a floor plan / layout of the house in Perris anywhere? I am struggling to understand how the home was actually put together. eg where the bedrooms were.

The years gap between the penultimate survivor (#12) and the baby (#13) bothers me. I don’t subscribe to the idea that the baby is not biologically LTs child, but I wonder why there were no conceptions / births in between. The possibility of a baby / infant who deceased in between is quite strong - and might have provided the impetus for the eventual escape - eg the older siblings worrying what might happen to #13 as she grew out of the "honeymoon" stage of baby cuteness.

In all the pictures I have seen, the eldest female survivor (#1) and second eldest male survivor (#4) appear the most frail - #4 in particular. At times he looks unable to lift his arms and legs easily, and holds his head at strange angles. I wonder if he has some sort of neurological condition (eg Multiple Sclerosis or similar – probably in my thoughts as my son has MS) or if this is inflicted neurological harm due to the abuse.

The picture where the survivors are in different tshirts also plays on my mind. I don’t have the link but I saw it here. I think (but hard to tell) the shirts are all Disney characters - Aristocats, Lady and The Tramp, Toy Story, ?One of the teeny shows about a band - and one of the boys is (I think) wearing a Darth Maul shirt from Star Wars.

Given the fixation on dressing everyone alike it seems unusual to have a range of different shirts - implying they may have been gifted. The photo is clearly in the home, and everyone is barefoot. The pants are obviously new (or at least really well laundered and not that old) - but they dont fit. I think a bulk buy from an outlet store where maybe only one or two sizes were available, as a quick fix to allow a "thank you" photos to be sent to the gifter. Notice also that the three boys are at the back - meaning you cant see their legs (?to hide the fact that they are in pink pants - or maybe dressed in old/dirty/unsuitable clothing)

Just a few thoughts. Thanks for reading.

The exact floor plan of the Perris house is here. I hunted and hunted in the Internet Archive until I found it - http://ifp.blufishdesign.com/ifp/plan.php?plan=34:00425444-150.2367 is the link from KB Homes of the floor plan, but you need to click the option 3 car garage to see exactly what the floor plan was in the development (Sequioia at Memorial Park).

Someone else posted what it actually looked like before it was converted from a model home in the development. Here it is - http://fusion.realtourvision.com/m/ios-viewer.php?tourid=70634&id=1178147 They escaped from the BR up front which is called Bedroom 5. In the house it is toward the street right next to what is labeled Den.

The press conferences also said I believe that they were locked in the bedrooms in small groups. The 22 year old boy and 14 year old and the 11 year old were shackled when police arrived, but I believe that the monster parents had removed the shackles of the 14 and 11 year old right as they arrived. That makes me think the 11 and 14 year old were maybe in the same room, but that is just a guess. I get so angry thinking about the suffering that these kids endured that I just have a hard time reading the reports and everything I see a picture of the two parents I just get a nauseated feeling.

I do know that in the press conferences that law enforcement discussed that some of the captives had neuropathy from years of abuse. Some press articles refer to it as nerve damage. I don't know a lot about it but neuropathy is permanent nerve damage and numbness and tingling which I have heard is similar to one of the symptoms of Multiple Sclerosis.

http://fusion.realtourvision.com/m/ios-viewer.php?tourid=70634&id=1178147

 

[mtnlites]

The hospital staffs, (the kids are being treated at two different medical centers.) in their communications thought it would be fun for the kids to have an iPad. If you could be fun stuff for the kids, what would you give them? Or expose them to fun stuff? What do you think that they would like? Now this assumes that they have the essential needs of life first like clean clothes, clean facilities, comfortable beds, and and can get comfortable with hygiene and personal grooming skills.

In other words, if you could be with the Turpin kids for a day, what would you give them? Fun places you would take them? So many things! First of all I would ask them, what they wanted to do that would be fun and special for them? Since they were deprived of food, I would bring fast food for them. So that they could eat hamburgers, pizza, and tacos. Stuff that they never in there lives. I think it is going to be so exciting for them to see a new world that they have never known! I think that the kids would really love a laptop computer! And we know that they were allowed to write. I think that they would enjoy expressing themselves.

Most importantly, I would be there as a good listener and friend to help them and guide them through the life they never had.

Satch

It's hard to know what they have and haven't done. If I hadn't seen the pictures, for instance, I'd have doubted that they'd been to Disneyland or that the parents took them to Las Vegas on their 21st birthdays. But I'd probably do things with them that weren't too overwhelming. (Laser tag, for instance, might be intimidating with the dark room and loud noises but mini golf might be fun.) The movies, perhaps? I live way out in the country and I think it'd be fun to get all of them bicycles (you can purchase training wheels and attach them to adult bikes if they need them) and to go for a ride. Or, if they're not too intimated, put them on my horses and take them down to the lake on our farm. We have ducks down there and my kids like feeding them. Spend the evening doing some kind of craft project, perhaps painting rocks which is a big thing in my community. The next day, we could take our rocks and hide them around town and look for ones that people have hidden. Make milkshakes and chocolate chip cookies together.

Basically, I'd just do with them as I do with my own kids. I don't want to treat them as children, since many of them are not, so I'd try to find activities that are fun and suited for all ages.

 

[Electric Sheep]

The hospital staffs, (the kids are being treated at two different medical centers.) in their communications thought it would be fun for the kids to have an iPad. If you could be fun stuff for the kids, what would you give them? Or expose them to fun stuff? What do you think that they would like? Now this assumes that they have the essential needs of life first like clean clothes, clean facilities, comfortable beds, and and can get comfortable with hygiene and personal grooming skills.

In other words, if you could be with the Turpin kids for a day, what would you give them? Fun places you would take them? So many things! First of all I would ask them, what they wanted to do that would be fun and special for them? Since they were deprived of food, I would bring fast food for them. So that they could eat hamburgers, pizza, and tacos. Stuff that they never in there lives. I think it is going to be so exciting for them to see a new world that they have never known! I think that the kids would really love a laptop computer! And we know that they were allowed to write. I think that they would enjoy expressing themselves.

Most importantly, I would be there as a good listener and friend to help them and guide them through the life they never had.

Satch

I'd introduce them to fresh vegetables and fruit. I suspect they saw precious few of either.

 

[Rocco]

It's hard to know what they have and haven't done. If I hadn't seen the pictures, for instance, I'd have doubted that they'd been to Disneyland or that the parents took them to Las Vegas on their 21st birthdays. But I'd probably do things with them that weren't too overwhelming. (Laser tag, for instance, might be intimidating with the dark room and loud noises but mini golf might be fun.) The movies, perhaps? I live way out in the country and I think it'd be fun to get all of them bicycles (you can purchase training wheels and attach them to adult bikes if they need them) and to go for a ride. Or, if they're not too intimated, put them on my horses and take them down to the lake on our farm. We have ducks down there and my kids like feeding them. Spend the evening doing some kind of craft project, perhaps painting rocks which is a big thing in my community. The next day, we could take our rocks and hide them around town and look for ones that people have hidden. Make milkshakes and chocolate chip cookies together.

Basically, I'd just do with them as I do with my own kids. I don't want to treat them as children, since many of them are not, so I'd try to find activities that are fun and suited for all ages.

I'd throw a big party for all of them, their foster parents, and their care givers and let them discuss amongst themselves how life is for them now. The new things they've seen and learned, and how good life is for them now. I'm sure they all have a lot they would love to share with one another.

A buffet.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

Yeah... I wonder if he worked mostly alone.

But, his coworkers will probably never talk unless subpoenaed.

At my place of work (fairly big company with offices in several countries), if such a case had happened we would have received a mail urging us to say nothing to journalists and to direct all inquiries to the spokeperson. Also, probably DT's colleagues are not looking for the kind of negative notoriety they would get by being associated with him.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

Agree... Pasta, rice, beans, potatoes, oatmeal, cabbage, powdered milk... lack of finances is no excuse for starving your family.

Jaycee... I'm pretty sure she and her children lived in the house after the first few years.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

BBM.

Can't find the link now, but I remember that when they filed for their last bankruptcy, DT listed $2,500 a month for food in their expenses. They were 14 at that time, so that's almost $6 per person per day. It's increadibly easy to decently feed a person with that budget. Plus they could bulk-buy.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

Who would be photoshopped out, though?
And what would be the purpose of it?

Maybe the photo is a composite of several photos -not easy to get the perfect expression for everyone at the same moment- and a random hand was forgotten?

 

[human]

I asked the spouse. While our young ones could draw concentric circles, I doubt that large, and wide, nor continuous. That's high up, and then to add a head, reaching 6' at the top, equal to the top of the door-facing, and the bottom part at around 3' above the floor. Then again my spouse said they'd likely had a whole lot of time to practice...

My spouse's reaction to the expression on the face was that it was neither happy, nor sad, just, "there", basically, expressionless. The circles that seemed to have been erased, and drawn over, may have been erased because they were first or 2nd tries and they were trying to get them just right. The circles remind me more of Kadinksky dot circles, with some stuff added, for creativity, or afterthought. Since homeschooling may have been beginning, they could have had a Kadinsky dot art lesson, and got bored.

https://josettebrouwer.edublogs.org/files/2012/01/IMG_3853-23r3s07.jpg

https://www.tes.com/lessons/QYtYMMwqMepHcg/5th-grade-circle-loom-weaving-w-kandinsky-painted-plates

I was an elementary art teacher although I went on to other teaching jobs. Using art wiork is what we did because we were trained by the Getty foundation.

A lot of people think art is hand turkeys and puttimg together precut forms. I seriously doubt LT was giving them higher level art lessons.

I also had training in art therapy although no degree. The levels of child development in drawing are well known and researched . The development of children is well researched in terms of levels of learning from concrete to abstract.

 

[catastrophe_]

Maybe the photo is a composite of several photos -not easy to get the perfect expression for everyone at the same moment- and a random hand was forgotten?

I literally do photoshop retouching in my career, and am able to perform the magic photoshop tricks of 'head-swapping' that is necessary in group photography on occasion. I seriously do NOT think the Thing #s photo was digitally altered at all. The hands in the circle are most likely in my opinion, the oldest/middle boy's hand (tall boy in the middle), and "Thing 3" girl's hand, extending from the other side of him as well... most of them all have very lanky and long arms too. And considering, with each, if not all of these kids being seriously, (please excuse my distasteful choice of word here, but it is applicable) grotesquely skinny in this photo, and none of them probably have a thicker waist than 25 inches around at most, I've looked at the photo for several minutes now and don't believe those two hands could belong to any other two people in that photograph.

 

[mtnlites]

I literally do photoshop retouching in my career, and am able to perform the magic photoshop tricks of 'head-swapping' that is necessary in group photography on occasion. I seriously do NOT think the Thing #s photo was digitally altered at all. The hands in the circle are most likely in my opinion, the oldest/middle boy's hand (tall boy in the middle), and "Thing 3" girl's hand, extending from the other side of him as well... most of them all have very lanky and long arms too. And considering, with each, if not all of these kids being seriously, (please excuse my distasteful choice of word here, but it is applicable) grotesquely skinny in this photo, and none of them probably have a thicker waist than 25 inches around at most, I've looked at the photo for several minutes now and don't believe those two hands could belong to any other two people in that photograph.

I design book covers part time and I agree. I don't think it's PS'ed with. I think it's just one of those weird angles and things that just crop up in images sometimes.

 

[enelram]

I am on this team as well. Equal blame. In fact, I am consistently shocked regarding that narrative and vitriol knowing what we know about their backgrounds. I don't see her as the "ringleader".

Never have.

This amount of torture is the responsibility of both parents and a reflection of a 'partnership" in depravity.

They were both raised with old school religious doctrines. LT's father was a religious leader or Pastor. I think DT's father was also a religious figure. Or was it his brother who wrote about "fasting" as a form of discipline?

According to the sister, DT and LT went from there respective upbringings and then "left the church" and began exploring "other religious practices". DT's parents stated it was DT's and her belief that it was "God's Will" for him to have so many children. A patently patriarchal belief and framework.

Historically, since FOREVER, the vast majority of religions are patriarchal in nature.

No way is anyone going to convince me this was all LT , that she was the lone demon in the situation. They are both equally responsible. Women are notoriously placed in submissive positions in the majority of religions. She was a 16 year old girl when he allegedly began pursuing her and apparently kidnapped her in an effort to convince her to elope. He was a grown man. She was a still a minor. Her parents did not protect her. Her mother enabled it and then her father effectively abandoned her in response.

I think the hyper focused vitriol toward LT as the "ringleader" speaks more to our uncomfortable feelings with a mother figure abandoning her maternal role of instinctual protector.

"Mothers" like this just challenge all of our narratives, gender roles, and all that we view as normal, and we just cannot process it. So we lash out at the woman specifically and the man in these particular situations is painted as the "follower" and the "weak one".

In fact, it is one of the few situations where we will do so.

Nope. Not buying it. Not by a longshot.

:moo:

Well said, Spice and I completely agree with you.
From my experience and perspective, these defective parents were feeding off each other. And yes, from these 'old fashioned' parenting styles, the husband generally leads and the wifey follows. Sometimes wifey complains and bemoans the terrible children's behaviors and husband suggest more control and more depravity. Wifey goes along with this. Again, both are involved and both responsible.

DT and LT BOTH experienced maltreatment in their childhood. DT probably Overly strict parenting and physical and emotional abuse, and LT probably
abuse, physical and sexual. These type families impart "suffering" as part of biblical punishment. It's generational, handed down through families. Normal punishment in their minds for these parents.

If you want to understand more about "suffering" as a normal type punishment I will try to find some articles. It's very
deep and complex but fairly common in religious based, ignorant, patriarchal families.

 

[Satch]

The exact floor plan of the Perris house is here. I hunted and hunted in the Internet Archive until I found it - http://ifp.blufishdesign.com/ifp/plan.php?plan=34:00425444-150.2367 is the link from KB Homes of the floor plan, but you need to click the option 3 car garage to see exactly what the floor plan was in the development (Sequioia at Memorial Park).

Someone else posted what it actually looked like before it was converted from a model home in the development. Here it is - http://fusion.realtourvision.com/m/ios-viewer.php?tourid=70634&id=1178147 They escaped from the BR up front which is called Bedroom 5. In the house it is toward the street right next to what is labeled Den.

The press conferences also said I believe that they were locked in the bedrooms in small groups. The 22 year old boy and 14 year old and the 11 year old were shackled when police arrived, but I believe that the monster parents had removed the shackles of the 14 and 11 year old right as they arrived. That makes me think the 11 and 14 year old were maybe in the same room, but that is just a guess. I get so angry thinking about the suffering that these kids endured that I just have a hard time reading the reports and everything I see a picture of the two parents I just get a nauseated feeling.

I do know that in the press conferences that law enforcement discussed that some of the captives had neuropathy from years of abuse. Some press articles refer to it as nerve damage. I don't know a lot about it but neuropathy is permanent nerve damage and numbness and tingling which I have heard is similar to one of the symptoms of Multiple Sclerosis.

http://fusion.realtourvision.com/m/ios-viewer.php?tourid=70634&id=1178147

Thanks for this!

Question the picture in the far left corner of the first link does not look like the current house: How come?

http://ifp.blufishdesign.com/ifp/plan.php?plan=34:00425444-150.2367 Also, why does the house interior look so clean here?

http://fusion.realtourvision.com/m/ios-viewer.php?tourid=70634&id=1178147

I think that I might be looking at the wrong house or something. I was expecting the horrible pictures that we saw in the media.

Satch

 

[Spice]

Many religions encourage the discipline of fasting. Non-religious people also sometimes encourage fasting for health purposes, etc. Fasting isn't a problem if it is a personal choice, for whatever reason it is done. Fasting would only be a problem if someone imposed it on others. I have personally practiced fasting, but I would never have forced my children to do so. If they personally felt they wanted to fast, I would encourage them to refrain from a favorite food or to fast from something they enjoyed, like TV or video games. It is wrong to speculate that someone who advocates or practices fasting for religious purposes is an unsuitable caregiver to others.

With all due respect and to be clear, I do not believe there is anything wrong with religious fasting when it is not used to literally starve or restrict food from your children, used as a form of punishment or discipline, or used as a form of control of children. I'm not asserting that this is what happened with the Turpins. We don't know yet.

My mention of the Uncle's book on fasting (The uncle that stated he wanted to adopt the children) should be taken in the context of this case.

Imho, it is not wrong in any way to criticize a religious practice if it used irresponsibly, recklessly, or nefariously to harm another person or child. Harmful religious practices, personal choice or not, are not above the law nor are they above criticism.

Context is everything.

These survivors were starved.

:moo:

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

I think shirts is a great idea. I remember all the Houston Strong shirts after the Hurricane. they were really popular and raised a lot of money and gave us a visual connector.

I like the idea of "Turpin Strong".

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[DakotaMayi]

At my place of work (fairly big company with offices in several countries), if such a case had happened we would have received a mail urging us to say nothing to journalists and to direct all inquiries to the spokeperson. Also, probably DT's colleagues are not looking for the kind of negative notoriety they would get by being associated with him.

Agreed. My DH worked for a little bit at a big company here (I won't name names, but, big online retailer, same name as the rain forest) and they had the same rule. And if they didn't receive the email notification, they had it in their contract.