CA - 13 victims, ages 2 to 29, shackled in home by parents, Perris, 15 Jan 2018 #9

[gitana1]

The oldest girl went to school until third grade. That is old enough to be diagnosed with any issues with cognition, behavior, learning, physical, social, emotional. Is there any documentation that there were issues?

I wonder why the oldest went to school and the others did not? Was it too hard to get the kids up, dressed, fed and off to school? What inspired that decision?It seems like getting rid of lots of kids for hours of the day would be nice. Perhaps they were required to be home to provide childcare?

Where did they learn this method of childcare? If DT and LT had loving care growing up would they think this was all right? They seemed to have treated their ownselves nicely with meals in restaurants including Applebee’s, trips, cars, and specialized license plates. They knew how to be nice to their ownselves

What do you suppose the marching around for hours was about?

Homeschooling was why they didn't take them to shook, IMO. As homeschooling became more mainstream and more definitively aligned with certain Christian groups and religions, this gave abusers more of an opportunity to engage in "discipline" and/or to cover abject neglect that otherwise could've been uncovered by nosy teachers. It's also a way to isolate the kids so they don't realize other kids are treated better.

I don't think it was a conscious discussion- "Let's homeschool so no one knows how neglected the kids are and so the kids don't realize how insane and cruel we are." Instead i think it would just be a natural part f the progression of their dysfunction, abuse and abnormality.

The marching is probably in part because they never allowed them outside to play or exercise. They knew damn well those kids muscles needed
movement. So they marched them instead of letting them have a life.

More evidence to me that they knew what they were doing was destructive and wrong.

 

[rsd1200]

Another thing is that in that 2013 vow renewal video, Elvis notices that LT and the three eldest girls are all wearing matching shoes, and LT looks so proud and happy. She apparently hasn't even observed that the girls can't walk in the shoes.

In other photos all the girls are not only wearing the same flip flops/sandals as each other, but LT is wearing the same ones. It's not just the whole family wearing matching clothes, it's right down to those sandals. I don't understand it and I'd be interested in learning the psychology behind it.

I've been on You Tube, looking up other large family videos, and interviews with them. Something I found interesting, is that many, do dress alike. Kinda like folks used to dress twins and triplets alike. Most, (well, the ones I viewed thus far), had another thing in common, folks stared at them in public, and made nasty comments to them, in public! I can kinda understand taking a second look, you don't see that many kids in families, these days, but to be speak ill to them, and call them names, has no place.

 

[gitana1]

Could you explain this a little more in layman's terms, please, Gitana?

Does the extortion have to be money, goods or services? Can it be related to behavior?

What does 'persuasion' mean in a legal sense? That seems to fit if it's to 'persuade' them to not run away, not tell relatives, neighbors or police of the true conditions in the home?

It's possible there's a sexual pleasure component in some of the torture, but if they torture the children and then go off to the bedroom together, how can you prove the sexual component? I really hope that the existing charge for lewd behavior is not the tip of the iceberg.

I'm only able to look at these terms from a lay perspective, and I have no idea what the details of these criteria are in law.

I would accept possibility of parole in 30 years for a minimum sentence. The sentence structure you've outlined for abuse etc sound ridiculous to me. There are people in prison for 25 years for pot, I consider what DT and LT have done to be far, far, worse than possession of pot, even with intent to supply.

Sorry for the typo. I meant "motive" not "notice"! Extortion does have to be money, goods or services I believe.

Oh hell ya. It is absolutely ridiculous. I feel the penalties for abuse are ridiculously low.

As to torture, I did wonder about persuasion. But I think that's more like persuading someone to do something like kill for them. Or give them a position. Something like that. But I wonder if t could be persuade them not to leave. Or not to tell or talk or try to escape?

 

[human]

Do we know they were physically beaten?. As if the chaining, isolation, psychological abuse and starvation weren't enough !

Strangled

 

[gitana1]

@ Amonet too - Truly the points both of you put forward are valuable and worthy of consideration and give me pause for thought.

Myself I cannot believe this was a case of 'possession' that became obsessive, nor that it stemmed from 'self-absorption' by one or both parents.

I suppose we have all known adult children that have stayed with parents, never married or had a job or life of their own because their upbringing led them to believe they had a duty of care, were obliged to stay at home virtually in the role of a servant, often for no gratitude at all. JMOO this is self-sacrificing by the child/children but I can grasp that.
Also many cases of baby or child deaths from abuse at the hands of parents but often caused by drink, drugs, mental instability .

In this present case cruelty for decades comes to the fore. A form of suppression, control and cruelty that is inconceivable in normal life of parents and children. And not just one but both parents as well !

I can't find any excuse except that both parents are mentally unstable, psychotic.

But I think we are talking about motive. Not excuse. Clearly these people are mentally unstable. Only a mentally unstable person would desire to so totally annihilate their children's independence and ability to be individuals via such intense suppression.

But psychotic? Oh I can see LT having moments of psychotic delusion or rages in which she strangled the kids or becomes insanely paranoid. But these people were in control of themselves and what they were doing and knew it was illegal. A truly psychotic person is like Andrea Yates. No attempt to hide the crime.

 

[gitana1]

Strangled

Among other things. Ugh.

 

[rsd1200]

Yeah, finding the motives in this has been perplexing right from the start. On the one hand, LT felt the need to leave home and establish herself (with DT) away from her parents at 16. On the other hand, she doesn't see that her children would have the same need even in their 20s? That screams self-absorption, not caring. It's one thing to give your children a better life than you had when you were growing up. It's quite another to completely suppress them, and never let them find their own way. Part of parenting is the gradual release. Sure, as a parent it hurts to see your children not need you. It also hurts to see them fail at things. But in the end it is about what is best for them, not what is best for the parent. And suppressing individuality and personality rather than nurturing them to be gradually stronger and stronger and able to care for themselves is just, again, a sign of self-absorption rather than proper nurturing. ("I'll treat myself to Taco Bell. But that's okay, I'll give them a few sips of Mountain Dew if they are good..." Sheesh, it boggles the mind.)

Okay, off my soapbox now.

It could very well be that the reasons they didn't want them to go out into the world, were because of what the parents did, and the choices they'd made. Just a guess from a very, world-wise, parent, who has spent some sleepless nights (no I didn't starve nor shackle mine, but I have lost a lot of sleep).

 

[rsd1200]

It is a new blood test that can be done early in the pregnancy. IIRC, it specifically tests for Downs, and Trisomy 13 and 18. Also, it can determine the gender of the baby. This test is optional, therefore, not included in the price of a maternity package.

You no longer have to wait for the Amniocentesis test to be certain of a bad diagnosis.

As stated above, many women getting a diagnosis of a Down Syndrome baby do abort. The proper name now for Downs is Trisomy 21.

It's still sorta sad.

 

[human]

Okay, I understand it in twins when they are very young, or even siblings, but at the ages these siblings are, forcing uniform dress at every outing seems to be nothing more than exertion of control. Did they really need to be dressed alike at DisneyLand? I know it served a purpose in LT's mind, but I just don't see that purpose as valid for teens and adults. This isn't the same as adults deciding to dress alike on a lark. This seems to be more of a forced regimen.

I never asked why, but my friend went with her children and grandchildren Disneyworld and they all had matching tie dye shirts. I don’t think anything else matched. I thought the pictures were cute.

I have friends who are in their 80’s, They are fraternal twins. One is thin and the other heavier, They live next door to each other. They were both married but husbands are deceased.

They have dressed identically all of their lives. They did have different careers from each other.

If I did not know the family situation, I would think the pictures of the kids all dressed alike is cute.

Sometimes my daughter would get the same dress for the two girls for special holidays. I think it looks cute.

My granddaughter from another daughter is 6 years older. They found similar looking clothes and took selfies with them wearing the clothes.

There are all kinds of situations where kids dress the same. School uniforms, dance recitals, marching bands are a few I can think of.

I simply see it as a photo op. For the “wedding”, brides have matching dress for bridesmaids.

Except for the fact they are skeletal and some are adults, unknown to anyone looking at them, they look like a normal family.

When I was growing up in the 50’s, people had lots of kids, especially Catholic. Eight or nine kids were not considered unusual. Even back then, there was a family of 14 kids and all of us kids were appalled for some reason. Not sure why we thought that way, but we did

 

[Zelda1010]

I kind of hope LT is deluded enough to tell her lawyer all about every last detail. Either bragging about what a great mother she was using brilliant and necessary discipline techniques or playing the victim who just had no choice but to go along. I'll eat crow and be very heartbroken all over again for the magnificent 13 if it comes out that LT suffered torture at the hands of DT when she was 16, or ever (or vice versa to be all pc & fair). I think her brand of evil was more twisted and his more cold & calculated, but they were twisted together in the ways they may have fed off each other. Dang, I always get so far off track...

If Borderline Personality Disorder is her deal, she could paint her lawyer as her savior, her confidante and spill her guts. If and when he informs her of all the crimes she's admitted to. And explains how he can't advise her to do anything but observe her right to remain silent and accept any offer handed to her. She'll completely flip and call him a liar and a fraud. I wouldn't be surprised to see her go through more than one lawyer as she tries to game the system and craft a defense....if BPD is the missing piece of this puzzle.

Borderline Personality Disorder Demystified

BBM, ianap either
http://www.bpddemystified.com/what-is-bpd/symptoms/

Symptoms
There are nine specific diagnostic criteria (symptoms) for borderline personality disorder defined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (referred to as DSM-5) published in 2013 by the American Psychiatric Association.1 In order to be diagnosed with borderline disorder, you must have five of the nine criteria.

It is now common to list the symptoms of the disorder in four groups or domains:

Domain A. Excessive, unstable and poorly regulated emotional responses.
The most commonly affected emotions in borderline disorder are anger, anxiety and depression. Of the nine DSM-5 criteria for borderline disorder, three fall into this group:

Affective (emotional) instability including intense, episodic emotional anguish, irritability, and anxiety/panic attacks
Anger that is inappropriate, intense and difficult to control, and
Chronic feelings of emptiness
In addition, if you suffer from borderline disorder, you may also experience emotional hyper-reactivity (“emotional storms&#8221, or emotional responses that are occasionally under- reactive, and frequent episodes of loneliness, and boredom.

Domain B. Impulsive behaviors that are harmful to you or to others.
Two of the DSM-5 criteria for borderline disorder are in this group:

4. Self-damaging acts such as excessive spending, unsafe and inappropriate sexual conduct, substance abuse, reckless driving, and binge eating, and
5. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, threats, or self-injurious behavior such as cutting or hitting yourself. (If you cut yourself under stress, you should be evaluated by a psychiatrist to determine why you do this. It is a dangerous activity, and a frequent cause is borderline disorder.)

Also, you may engage in other impulsive behaviors such as actions that are harmful and destructive to yourself, others or property

Domain C. Inaccurate perceptions of yourself and others, and high levels of suspiciousness.
Two of the DSM-5 criteria for borderline disorder are included in this group:

6. A markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of yourself (your perceptions of yourself, your identity), and
7. Suspiciousness of others thoughts about you, and even paranoid ideation, or transient and stress related dissociative episodes during which you feel that you or your surroundings appear unreal.

Other symptoms in this Domain include split- or “all-or-nothing” thinking, difficulty “pulling” your thoughts together so they make sense, and rational problem solving, especially in social conflicts.

Domain D. Finally, you may experience tumultuous and very unstable relationships.
The final two DSM-5 criteria fall in this group:

8. You may engage in frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment, and
9. Your relationships may be very intense, unstable, and alternate between the extremes of over idealizing and undervaluing people who are important to you.

You may also recognize that you have overly dependent and clinging behavior in important relationships. In addition, you may consistently have expectations of negative and harmful attitudes and behaviors from most people, and difficulty in reasoning clearly in stressful social situations.

I don't mean to leave DT out of my armchair analysis. I'm sure he's equally as disordered in order for the evil to thrive in that environment.

 

[gitana1]

They knew what they were doing was wrong, and part of the privacy aspect I think is the fear of being found out. I think they were putting on a purposeful charade for their extended families to pretend that all was good--better than good.

But we've also heard some stories of them interacting with neighbors, and also the eldest son going to some college classes. Those interactions might have been on the surface about wanting to appear more 'normal' but they must also have come with a deep paranoia when they went back behind closed doors.

In the first hearing for DT and LT I saw them glance at each other and it seemed to me a look that was saying, "well, we sorta knew it couldn't last forever...and this is it..."

You hit the nail on the head.

I think this case will be hard to defend.

The "they just got overwhelmed" defense is no good because they continued to add to the family for 20 years after it was clear they were overwhelmed (assuming they had good intentions which I do not assume and require proof; I am not a mind reader and thus do not know what they thought.)

The "kids had blah blah blah disorder" is no good because there are too many kids and this went on for too many years. It is doubtful this many people, even in the same family, all have any "disorder" (except for maybe ones caused by malnutrition, confinement, lack of hygiene, and abuse... Uh oh, that is the prosecution's case, oops). But, it appears they did not seek medical help. So, why not? And, why did they let it continue on so long?

Anyway, I am sure defense will come up with something. But, mostly, I think they will attack prosecution's case and try to get evidence thrown out. JMO, ianal

I think you're right.

Could you explain this a little more in layman's terms, please, Gitana?

Does the extortion have to be money, goods or services? Can it be related to behavior?

What does 'persuasion' mean in a legal sense? That seems to fit if it's to 'persuade' them to not run away, not tell relatives, neighbors or police of the true conditions in the home?

It's possible there's a sexual pleasure component in some of the torture, but if they torture the children and then go off to the bedroom together, how can you prove the sexual component? I really hope that the existing charge for lewd behavior is not the tip of the iceberg.

I'm only able to look at these terms from a lay perspective, and I have no idea what the details of these criteria are in law.

I would accept possibility of parole in 30 years for a minimum sentence. The sentence structure you've outlined for abuse etc sound ridiculous to me. There are people in prison for 25 years for pot, I consider what DT and LT have done to be far, far, worse than possession of pot, even with intent to supply.

I looked up the legal definition of extortion:

California Penal Code Section 518 PC, extortion(commonly referred to as "blackmail") is a criminal offense that involves the use of force or threats to compel another person into providing money or property, or using force or threats to compel a public official to perform or neglect an official act or duty.

I never asked why, but my friend went with her children and grandchildren Disneyworld and they all had matching tie dye shirts. I don’t think anything else matched. I thought the pictures were cute.

I have friends who are in their 80’s, They are fraternal twins. One is thin and the other heavier, They live next door to each other. They were both married but husbands are deceased.

They have dressed identically all of their lives. They did have different careers from each other.

If I did not know the family situation, I would think the pictures of the kids all dressed alike is cute.

Sometimes my daughter would get the same dress for the two girls for special holidays. I think it looks cute.

My granddaughter from another daughter is 6 years older. They found similar looking clothes and took selfies with them wearing the clothes.

There are all kinds of situations where kids dress the same. School uniforms, dance recitals, marching bands are a few I can think of.

I simply see it as a photo op. For the “wedding”, brides have matching dress for bridesmaids.

Except for the fact they are skeletal and some are adults, unknown to anyone looking at them, they look like a normal family.

When I was growing up in the 50’s, people had lots of kids, especially Catholic. Eight or nine kids were not considered unusual. Even back then, there was a family of 14 kids and all of us kids were appalled for some reason. Not sure why we thought that way, but we did

Of course there are situations where people dress identically or dress their kids identically and it's cute and not a sign of anything. That's not what we are talking about.

To me this is just one more sign of the annihilation of these hildren as individual, human beings with their own thoughts, feelings and needs.

I'm sure these monsters have a host of mental health issues. Narcissism seems clearly part of that. Many people have linked to articles here about how narcissists view their kids- as objects, trophies, extensions of themselves, things, toys, punching bags.

Dressing these kids identically is symptomstic, IMO of both their cultural and dysfunctional beliefs that children are possessions that may not have their own wills and must be totally obedient to everything the parents want and believe. (Frankly I see the same with families like the Duggars who believe in breaking a child's will and "training" them to absolute, unquestioning obedience and conformity.)

Its all context. For me in context of this bizarre family and their insane and criminals refusal to allow their children to be individual humans, it's a symptom of something sinister.

 

[human]

As far as society in general goes, and maintaining our American principles per te US constitution, it is imperative that everyone accused of a
crome be afforded a zealous defense.

But when I look at their ugly mugs and the innocent faces of their long suffering kids, I don't care. I'm less interested in American principles of due process and more interested in revenge. Not too logical, I know.

In any event, I went through their charges and any significant time will hinge on whether the torture charges stick.

Abuse of a dependent adult = up to four years state prison (as charged).

Child abuse/neglect = 1-6 years as charged.

False imprisonment = 16 months to 3 years as charged.

Torture = up to life imprisonment.

We absolutely need to the torture charge to stick. Otherwise, I do not see justice coming close to occurring.

So for that we need that the motive is extrotion, persuasion or sadistic pleasure.

Putting pies out of their reach but where they can see them would be a great way to prove sadistic pleasure. That's evidence. Even without clear statements indicating they were taunting them. Anything, like "Don't you dare touch this pie." Should be enough, IMO.

My wavering and worry comes from the cultural, historical sentiment that children are our property and we can do with them what we want.

There is also a historical, cultural attitude that harsh discipline of children is necessary.

Read the comments' sections of any article that has anythin remotely to do with kids committing crimes, talking back, being rude, or anything to do with any crimes and you will see countless comments about how "If that was me I wouldn't be alive to tell the tale." "When I was a kid I would have feared my parent more than the teacher" (who abused the child in the article in some way).

"We need to bring back corporal punishment. These people weren't disciplined as children. That's what caused them to kill. My parents used thebelt on me and I turned out fine."

Over and over you see these comments.

Put the two together and I'm worried a jury would find an excuse to give these people less time.

But the national outrage over this case gives me hope. Like even for those who believe kids should be harshly punished, this went over the line. I hope so.

They destroyed the lives of these kids. Some will never recover or reach the potential they could have due to intense isolation, abuse, control, etc.

To me justice would be spending the rest of their lives in prison.

Exactly re the comments of the people who say they came out ok.

I know then and there they are not OK. First of all, they support cruelty to children. But they do not see their own damaged selves.

I cam see that the things you are saying can apply to jurists. DT and LT were simply trying to do the best in a tough situation, After all, they had lovely trips they brought the chidren on.

 

[arkansasmimi]

I never asked why, but my friend went with her children and grandchildren Disneyworld and they all had matching tie dye shirts. I don’t think anything else matched. I thought the pictures were cute.

I have friends who are in their 80’s, They are fraternal twins. One is thin and the other heavier, They live next door to each other. They were both married but husbands are deceased.

They have dressed identically all of their lives. They did have different careers from each other.

If I did not know the family situation, I would think the pictures of the kids all dressed alike is cute.

Sometimes my daughter would get the same dress for the two girls for special holidays. I think it looks cute.

My granddaughter from another daughter is 6 years older. They found similar looking clothes and took selfies with them wearing the clothes.

There are all kinds of situations where kids dress the same. School uniforms, dance recitals, marching bands are a few I can think of.

I simply see it as a photo op. For the “wedding”, brides have matching dress for bridesmaids.

Except for the fact they are skeletal and some are adults, unknown to anyone looking at them, they look like a normal family.

When I was growing up in the 50’s, people had lots of kids, especially Catholic. Eight or nine kids were not considered unusual. Even back then, there was a family of 14 kids and all of us kids were appalled for some reason. Not sure why we thought that way, but we did

Lots of people do that when going to places like that. Scout groups do that with tee shirts. All of my grandchildren have field trip teeshirts diff color for each class. My kids were same in school. JMHO it is just easily to keep your group together. IIRC DT mother said they did it for safety reasons. That one parent would be at front and the other at back of group. This was a large group and just as groups go, it is understandable to me. We do this with our small brood 1/4 size of this one.

And I don't find it odd all dressing alike in group photos. What is strange to me is the wearing the same clothing various years. All of them, parents included.

 

[Zelda1010]

As far as society in general goes, and maintaining our American principles per te US constitution, it is imperative that everyone accused of a
crome be afforded a zealous defense.

But when I look at their ugly mugs and the innocent faces of their long suffering kids, I don't care. I'm less interested in American principles of due process and more interested in revenge. Not too logical, I know.

In any event, I went through their charges and any significant time will hinge on whether the torture charges stick.

Abuse of a dependent adult = up to four years state prison (as charged).

Child abuse/neglect = 1-6 years as charged.

False imprisonment = 16 months to 3 years as charged.

Torture = up to life imprisonment.

We absolutely need to the torture charge to stick. Otherwise, I do not see justice coming close to occurring.

So for that we need that the motive is extrotion, persuasion or sadistic pleasure.

Putting pies out of their reach but where they can see them would be a great way to prove sadistic pleasure. That's evidence. Even without clear statements indicating they were taunting them. Anything, like "Don't you dare touch this pie." Should be enough, IMO.

My wavering and worry comes from the cultural, historical sentiment that children are our property and we can do with them what we want.

There is also a historical, cultural attitude that harsh discipline of children is necessary.

Read the comments' sections of any article that has anythin remotely to do with kids committing crimes, talking back, being rude, or anything to do with any crimes and you will see countless comments about how "If that was me I wouldn't be alive to tell the tale." "When I was a kid I would have feared my parent more than the teacher" (who abused the child in the article in some way).

"We need to bring back corporal punishment. These people weren't disciplined as children. That's what caused them to kill. My parents used thebelt on me and I turned out fine."

Over and over you see these comments.

Put the two together and I'm worried a jury would find an excuse to give these people less time.

But the national outrage over this case gives me hope. Like even for those who believe kids should be harshly punished, this went over the line. I hope so.

They destroyed the lives of these kids. Some will never recover or reach the potential they could have due to intense isolation, abuse, control, etc.

To me justice would be spending the rest of their lives in prison.

Oh yes. Your post got me going before. I worry because of the conversations surrounding youth offenders, too. I've been reading into the Missouri model of reform for other reasons and I think I see echos in that conversation of what you are saying here.

I also hope this case could serve to inspire a paradigm shift in how survivors of abuse are cared for. And how their abusers are punished. Maybe the national outrage on the heals of metoo could create real and lasting change.

I feel I a moo is in order. Esp after my previous post, too.

:moo::blushing:

 

[rsd1200]

That statement broke my heart. I cannot imagine giving my kids a can of any old thing & thinking that is enough for their nutritional requirements on a daily basis! Obviously that happens when life necessitates a quick meal of canned chili or ravioli cuz mom/dad are too sick or whatever to cook lol (BTDT). BUT there are numerous ways to use canned foods along with something healthy if you are on a strict budget (also BTDT).

I'm no gourmet chef but cooking healthy meals on a budget is not THAT difficult, especially with the advent of those newfangled things called cookbooks lol and they could get them cheap at thrift stores or free at library so no excuses there.

I am very curious to discover what the reasoning behind their starvation of the kids was. Not that there is ANY justifiable reason for starving your children but it will be interesting to see what excuse they come up with.

What a horrible, tragic, sad, (insert any of a multitude of depressing terms) completely avoidable situation, one of the many cases I've followed here at websleuths that will haunt my thoughts/dreams until I die :sick: :tears: :scream:

I BTDT too. Worked late, the spouse had a long commute, so I'd get home first most days, and would start dinner. Some days ya just gotta make do. Again, the nutrition, and meals, are something I've focused on, I guess, from personal struggle but still being able to feed myself something, and, later, my kids... So I can't write it off to lack of money. I couldn't boil water when I left home but, as you said, a friend loaned me this fantastic thing called a cook book! And, a most wonderful fella took it upon himself, to teach me to fry chicken so I fried everything in site after that. So I can't write it off to stupidity. I do wonder if she had a mental health issue, combined with an eating disorder and enforced it upon her children. I ran across this, it's speaking to anorexia and bulimia but, ultimately, it's control, and if the kids gain weight, the mother feels "rejection". If you look at LT's pics, she fluctuates, and has very dark circles under her eyes in some pics. She might have cycles of gaining, and then going on severe diets. They were so isolated from family, and not attending public school, it would be hard for folks to notice. Just a thought.

[FONT=&quot]'We're also seeing more and more anorexic mothers who face tremendous problems feeding their own children,' she says. 'These women constantly seek to control their children's intake. They don't let them have anything they perceive as unhealthy, and they serve minute portions. The most worrying thing is that they literally cannot see their children as underweight. Often it is the grandparents or teachers who notice that something's wrong.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]'The husbands are usually extremely busy and unengaged in the family. All the running of the household is left to the mother.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ht-in-a-vicious-circle-corrected-1484342.html
[/FONT]

 

[human]

Homeschooling was why they didn't take them to shook, IMO. As homeschooling became more mainstream and more definitively aligned with certain Christian groups and religions, this gave abusers more of an opportunity to engage in "discipline" and/or to cover abject neglect that otherwise could've been uncovered by nosy teachers. It's also a way to isolate the kids so they don't realize other kids are treated better.

I don't think it was a conscious discussion- "Let's homeschool so no one knows how neglected the kids are and so the kids don't realize how insane and cruel we are." Instead i think it would just be a natural part f the progression of their dysfunction, abuse and abnormality.

The marching is probably in part because they never allowed them outside to play or exercise. They knew damn well those kids muscles needed
movement. So they marched them instead of letting them have a life.

More evidence to me that they knew what they were doing was destructive and wrong.

Putting children in school for the day gets them lunch that you do not have to make. It gets them out of the house so you can get something done or go to the spa or whatever.

Rather, they chose to keep them home. I think it was to help with childcare and to have no schedule they had to meet. They could do as they pleased re getting up or feeding or providing appropritate clothing.

Maybe someone from the school called and suggested cleanliness for the child. Or maybe someone said something to LT.

Already that child was suffering from lack of care. We know that because two different classmates said it, All was not right in the home already.

 

[Amonet]

I kind of hope LT is deluded enough to tell her lawyer all about every last detail. Either bragging about what a great mother she was using brilliant and necessary discipline techniques or playing the victim who just had no choice to go along. I'll eat crow and be very heartbroken all over again for the magnificent 13 if it comes out that LT suffered torture at the hands of DT when she was 16, or ever (or vice versa to be all pc & fair). I think her brand of evil was more twisted and his more cold & calculated, but they were twisted together in the ways they may have fed off each other. Dang, I always get so far off track...

If Borderline Personality Disorder is her deal, she could paint her lawyer as her savior, her confidante and spill her guts. If and when he informs her of all the crimes she's admitted to. And explains how he can't advise her to do anything but observe her right to remain silent and accept any offer handed to her. She'll completely flip and call him a liar and a fraud. I wouldn't be surprised to see her go through more than one lawyer as she tries to game the system and craft a defense....if BPD is the missing piece of this puzzle.

Borderline Personality Disorder Demystified

BBM, ianap either
http://www.bpddemystified.com/what-is-bpd/symptoms/



I don't mean to leave DT out of my armchair analysis. I'm sure he's equally as disordered in order for the evil to thrive in that environment.

The two bolded parts really explain the feeling I am getting from LT, and she did seem to look at her attorney like that might be possible!

I think an attorney would be in a difficult position if that happened, because it's their job to defend their client. It's not about agreeing with the client's behavior, it's about about providing some kind of defense. And if they feel they can't do that, then they have to get someone else to do the job. Doing a half-way job is not acceptable. It's like being a doctor, it doesn't matter if you dislike the patient, it doesn't matter if the patient caused their own injuries, your job is to treat the patient/defend the client.

I can still only imagine DT and LT trying to argue that the things they did weren't as severe as we've been led to believe and that they felt in their minds that their behavior was, for the most part, reasonable for the situation they found themselves in. The attorney can only do that as far as the medical evidence (and other evidence) allows. It is pretty sick that they could theoretically turn some of this around onto the siblings and say they're making some of it up. I really hope the siblings don't have to face anything like that in court. For their healing they need to learn and truly believe inside that they didn't do anything to bring any of this on. For the elder siblings I fear that the jury will find it hard to believe they didn't tell anyone or run away years ago. For the minors, I can't believe that a jury would think any of these things were just about parental rights to discipline and make choices for your own children.

After reading what Gitana said, it's the potential sentences that I'm scared about. As long as the charges are carefully chosen and the DA has good examples to back up those charges, plus medical and photographic evidence I can't see DT and LT not being found guilty of at least some of these charges.

 

[Zelda1010]

Putting children in school for the day gets them lunch that you do not have to make. It gets them out of the house so you can get something done or go to the spa or whatever.

Rather, they chose to,keep them home. I think it was to help with childcare and to have no schedule they had to meet. They could do as they pleased re getting up or feeding or providing appropritate clothing.

Maybe someone from the school called and suggested cleanliness for the child. Or maybe someone said something to LT.

Already that child waa suffering from lack of care. We know that because two different classmates said it, All was not right in the home already.

I'm trying to catch up again, but....

Perhaps they took her out of school at approximately 9 years old, when her 5 year old brother was ready to start classes.

Despite what we know about their schooling, unless my eyes deceive me, we see them here with backpacks, presumably in a scholarly setting of some sort.




ETA:

I think the two taller girls have bags, maybe. I definitely think I see a pink strap on the left shoulder of the girl to our right of LT. On closer inspection, I see just one strap, could be diaper bag duty. I also think maybe amongst the long hair of the girl in front of the graduate might be some hidden black backpack straps, but nothing definitely.

Hope this doesn't cause chaos.

 

[SkipperKey3]

I'm trying to catch up again, but....

Perhaps they took her out of school at approximately 9 years old, when her 5 year old brother was ready to start classes.

Despite what we know about their schooling, unless my eyes deceive me, we see them here with backpacks, presumably in a scholarly setting of some sort.

What am I missing? Where are you seeing backpacks in that picture?

 

[Amonet]

Lots of people do that when going to places like that. Scout groups do that with tee shirts. All of my grandchildren have field trip teeshirts diff color for each class. My kids were same in school. JMHO it is just easily to keep your group together. IIRC DT mother said they did it for safety reasons. That one parent would be at front and the other at back of group. This was a large group and just as groups go, it is understandable to me. We do this with our small brood 1/4 size of this one.

And I don't find it odd all dressing alike in group photos. What is strange to me is the wearing the same clothing various years. All of them, parents included.

And even the picture inside the home on the sofa, they're all wearing red shirts and jeans. That isn't about easy recognition in a big crowd.

Some of the pictures on outings, the siblings are in clothing for groups of 3, the three boys, the three eldest girls, the three middle girls, and the three younger girls. So even in that situation the identical clothing for safety seems a stretch.

Then there are pictures that seem to be taken on different days in slightly different locations and the clothes don't change. I do wonder what each child's wardrobe looked like and whether they owned anything that had a sense of individuality to it. How many t-shirts and jeans did they have each if they're photographed in the same things on consecutive photo ops? I could get wearing the same clothes as a kind of Sunday best for outings, but this does seem to go further than that?

The picture of the siblings in what appears to be a school building with the eldest in a graduation outfit. I don't have a problem with the school uniform nature of the matching outfits. In some of the 3/3/3/3 pics I think the outfits look nice and in an age appropriate way. It's not just one-off things, it's not just going out for the weekend at Disney and wearing red on Saturday and yellow on Sunday but each kid in different shoes or other items.

In a lot of pictures the clothes and shoes don't even seem to fit very well. Of course with things like smaller children you might buy them things to grow into. Kids often get hand-me-downs and they might go from a large fit to a good fit to being a bit short and getting replaced at that point. But it doesn't look like that from the few photos we have seen, it seems more like a constant theme of not caring how well the clothing fit as long as it matched?

I'm trying to say that I think there's a point where you can be too nitpicky with things like this, but there are so many things that seem to add up to a general pattern. As I say it's okay that sometimes clothes don't fit perfectly. New shoes should be snug but have growing room. Junk food is okay sometimes. Sending a misbehaving kid to their room is okay sometimes. Having a bathroom rota where some shower in the morning, some shower in the evening and some have a strip wash that day is fine, and rotate the groups each day. Homeschooling can be good if the kids are actually educated and it's not done to hide abuse. But none of the things DT/LT have done are in normal moderation.