CA - 13 victims, ages 2 to 29, shackled in home by parents, Perris, 15 Jan 2018 #9

[human]

You hit the nail on the head.



I think you're right.



I looked up the legal definition of extortion:

California Penal Code Section 518 PC, extortion(commonly referred to as "blackmail") is a criminal offense that involves the use of force or threats to compel another person into providing money or property, or using force or threats to compel a public official to perform or neglect an official act or duty.



Of course there are situations where people dress identically or dress their kids identically and it's cute and not a sign of anything. That's not what we are talking about.

To me this is just one more sign of the annihilation of these hildren as individual, human beings with their own thoughts, feelings and needs.

I'm sure these monsters have a host of mental health issues. Narcissism seems clearly part of that. Many people have linked to articles here about how narcissists view their kids- as objects, trophies, extensions of themselves, things, toys, punching bags.

Dressing these kids identically is symptomstic, IMO of both their cultural and dysfunctional beliefs that children are possessions that may not have their own wills and must be totally obedient to everything the parents want and believe. (Frankly I see the same with families like the Duggars who believe in breaking a child's will and "training" them to absolute, unquestioning obedience and conformity.)

Its all context. For me in context of this bizarre family and their insane and criminals refusal to allow their children to be individual humans, it's a symptom of something sinister.

I should explain better. I think everything they do is related to some bizarre need.

I think having so many children nowadays is because of issues but I will not go into that.

I am simply pointing out that dressing alike is not unusual in lots of situations. It would not cause a second look. I would wonder how the parents could afford a trip with so many children.

Where I lived in MN there was a Lutheran sect that did not believe in birth control. Kids dropped out at 16.Many lived in beautiful homes. They wear designer clothing such as Gap. They have nice cars.

We neighbors wondered how they did it. They do not watch their children. That was a big complaint. Kids in the road.

We have heard hints of abuse within the church, but it was only talked about. No one ever thought of doing anything about investigating or questioning. Since my grandkids attend the same schools, I know the boys are bullies.

I just thought of this now that the only things we talked about is how they lived in expensive homes and had expensive clothes and cars and how the children are bullies. We never talked about how the children may be treated at home, I think we assumed nice homes, nice cars, fine life, And where I lived was a community of higher income. Hm.

I see from my thinking here how hard it is to call CPS unless you have specifics.

 

[WestieMom]

As far as society in general goes, and maintaining our American principles per te US constitution, it is imperative that everyone accused of a
crome be afforded a zealous defense.

But when I look at their ugly mugs and the innocent faces of their long suffering kids, I don't care. I'm less interested in American principles of due process and more interested in revenge. Not too logical, I know.

In any event, I went through their charges and any significant time will hinge on whether the torture charges stick.

Abuse of a dependent adult = up to four years state prison (as charged).

Child abuse/neglect = 1-6 years as charged.

False imprisonment = 16 months to 3 years as charged.

Torture = up to life imprisonment.

We absolutely need to the torture charge to stick. Otherwise, I do not see justice coming close to occurring.

So for that we need that the motive is extrotion, persuasion or sadistic pleasure.

Putting pies out of their reach but where they can see them would be a great way to prove sadistic pleasure. That's evidence. Even without clear statements indicating they were taunting them. Anything, like "Don't you dare touch this pie." Should be enough, IMO.

My wavering and worry comes from the cultural, historical sentiment that children are our property and we can do with them what we want.

There is also a historical, cultural attitude that harsh discipline of children is necessary.

Read the comments' sections of any article that has anythin remotely to do with kids committing crimes, talking back, being rude, or anything to do with any crimes and you will see countless comments about how "If that was me I wouldn't be alive to tell the tale." "When I was a kid I would have feared my parent more than the teacher" (who abused the child in the article in some way).

"We need to bring back corporal punishment. These people weren't disciplined as children. That's what caused them to kill. My parents used thebelt on me and I turned out fine."

Over and over you see these comments.

Put the two together and I'm worried a jury would find an excuse to give these people less time.

But the national outrage over this case gives me hope. Like even for those who believe kids should be harshly punished, this went over the line. I hope so.

They destroyed the lives of these kids. Some will never recover or reach the potential they could have due to intense isolation, abuse, control, etc.

To me justice would be spending the rest of their lives in prison.

Wouldn’t there be multiple counts on each of the charges you listed? I remember seeing it that way in documents. Significant time could rack up on them alone. However, in MOO they shouldn’t have a hard time proving torture.


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[human]

Oh yes. Your post got me going before. I worry because of the conversations surrounding youth offenders, too. I've been reading into the Missouri model of reform for other reasons and I think I see echos in that conversation of what you are saying here.

I also hope this case could serve to inspire a paradigm shift in how survivors of abuse are cared for. And how their abusers are punished. Maybe the national outrage on the heals of metoo could create real and lasting change.

I feel I a moo is in order. Esp after my previous post, too.

:moo::blushing:

I like the idea of a me too on the child abuse thing. Lots of celebrities such as musicians were abused by parents

 

[human]

I'm trying to catch up again, but....

Perhaps they took her out of school at approximately 9 years old, when her 5 year old brother was ready to start classes.

Despite what we know about their schooling, unless my eyes deceive me, we see them here with backpacks, presumably in a scholarly setting of some sort.

View attachment 129794

And those look like school uniforms

 

[gitana1]

I kind of hope LT is deluded enough to tell her lawyer all about every last detail. Either bragging about what a great mother she was using brilliant and necessary discipline techniques or playing the victim who just had no choice to go along. I'll eat crow and be very heartbroken all over again for the magnificent 13 if it comes out that LT suffered torture at the hands of DT when she was 16, or ever (or vice versa to be all pc & fair). I think her brand of evil was more twisted and his more cold & calculated, but they were twisted together in the ways they may have fed off each other. Dang, I always get so far off track...

If Borderline Personality Disorder is her deal, she could paint her lawyer as her savior, her confidante and spill her guts. If and when he informs her of all the crimes she's admitted to. And explains how he can't advise her to do anything but observe her right to remain silent and accept any offer handed to her. She'll completely flip and call him a liar and a fraud. I wouldn't be surprised to see her go through more than one lawyer as she tries to game the system and craft a defense....if BPD is the missing piece of this puzzle.

Borderline Personality Disorder Demystified

BBM, ianap either
http://www.bpddemystified.com/what-is-bpd/symptoms/



I don't mean to leave DT out of my armchair analysis. I'm sure he's equally as disordered in order for the evil to thrive in that environment.

I've suspected Borderline with her from the beginning. I think we just have much more info about her and her traits as opposed to him. So we concentrate on her more.

Oh i see her flip flopping on her attorney. Casey Anthony was exactly the same.

But she lacks the funds to get new attorneys. These are court appointed.

 

[SkipperKey3]

And those look like school uniforms

Or it could merely be their church clothes.

 

[gitana1]

Wouldn’t there be multiple counts on each of the charges you listed? I remember seeing it that way in documents. Significant time could rack up on them alone. However, in MOO they shouldn’t have a hard time proving torture.


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There are absolutely multiple counts. I've rarely seen them sentenced concurrently though.

 

[WestieMom]

There are absolutely multiple counts. I've rarely seen them sentenced concurrently though.

I thought about that point , after posting. :/


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[human]

I know zero about companies such as Lockheed.

My son is an engineer in a multistate engineering firm.

They have parties and activities . We have had my son bring coworkers to our house for bbq that we had on Sundays for all of the family and friends if they wished.

There are activities,sponsored by the company. No one is super rich, but emoloyees have decent salaries so they have decent homes, I guess, Who knows after reading about the T’s.

Anyway, I wonder how they fit into the employee social scene. They liked to live in nice homes. Were they invited to parties? Did they join company events? Or was their life only with the family?

 

[gitana1]

Exactly re the comments of the people who say they came out ok.

I know then and there they are not OK. First of all, they support cruelty to children. But they do not see their own damaged selves.

I cam see that the things you are saying can apply to jurists. DT and LT were simply trying to do the best in a tough situation, After all, they had lovely trips they brought the chidren on.

Oh I so hope not. I really hope they don't become used to the facts and retain shock at it all. But we've even seen people on here trying to say it could t be that bad because look! They went to Disney!

I found a whole blog about this case by someone who thinks they weren't abused but that this is part of some CIA mind control, Illuminati thing.

 

[SkipperKey3]

And even the picture inside the home on the sofa, they're all wearing red shirts and jeans. That isn't about easy recognition in a big crowd.

Some of the pictures on outings, the siblings are in clothing for groups of 3, the three boys, the three eldest girls, the three middle girls, and the three younger girls. So even in that situation the identical clothing for safety seems a stretch.

Then there are pictures that seem to be taken on different days in slightly different locations and the clothes don't change. I do wonder what each child's wardrobe looked like and whether they owned anything that had a sense of individuality to it. How many t-shirts and jeans did they have each if they're photographed in the same things on consecutive photo ops? I could get wearing the same clothes as a kind of Sunday best for outings, but this does seem to go further than that?

The picture of the siblings in what appears to be a school building with the eldest in a graduation outfit. I don't have a problem with the school uniform nature of the matching outfits. In some of the 3/3/3/3 pics I think the outfits look nice and in an age appropriate way. It's not just one-off things, it's not just going out for the weekend at Disney and wearing red on Saturday and yellow on Sunday but each kid in different shoes or other items.

In a lot of pictures the clothes and shoes don't even seem to fit very well. Of course with things like smaller children you might buy them things to grow into. Kids often get hand-me-downs and they might go from a large fit to a good fit to being a bit short and getting replaced at that point. But it doesn't look like that from the few photos we have seen, it seems more like a constant theme of not caring how well the clothing fit as long as it matched?

I'm trying to say that I think there's a point where you can be too nitpicky with things like this, but there are so many things that seem to add up to a general pattern. As I say it's okay that sometimes clothes don't fit perfectly. New shoes should be snug but have growing room. Junk food is okay sometimes. Sending a misbehaving kid to their room is okay sometimes. Having a bathroom rota where some shower in the morning, some shower in the evening and some have a strip wash that day is fine, and rotate the groups each day. Homeschooling can be good if the kids are actually educated and it's not done to hide abuse. But none of the things DT/LT have done are in normal moderation.

I actually don't have a lot of problem with them being dressed alike. What is odd, though, is that when siblings or adults or whoever dresses alike, there is still a sense of individuality in some respect. Earrings, necklaces, hairstyles, etc. In these pictures there is very little of that. But in all fairness, I guess, I don't see much in the way of adornment on LT in those pictures, either. I do see earrings in some pictures, but that's about it. But she does change her hairstyle, while the hairstyle of the siblings varies very little. It is different while very young but from the time they are teens onward, very little changes. Just IMO.

 

[SATA]

Another thing is that in that 2013 vow renewal video, Elvis notices that LT and the three eldest girls are all wearing matching shoes, and LT looks so proud and happy. She apparently hasn't even observed that the girls can't walk in the shoes.

In other photos all the girls are not only wearing the same flip flops/sandals as each other, but LT is wearing the same ones. It's not just the whole family wearing matching clothes, it's right down to those sandals. I don't understand it and I'd be interested in learning the psychology behind it.

I heard a theory about families choosing names for their childrean starting with the same letter.
Allegedly it happens in families that are not well grounded, they need to convince themselves and others that they are a unit, when in reality they have some doubts about exactly that.


(Not in all cases of course, and it is just a theory, but by a psychologist.)

Same could be said about the uniform clothing and hairstyles.

P.S.
I noticed a sewing machine in a photo from one of their homes.
Did they home produce some of the clothes possibly?
The Elvis dresses look very home made.

LT?
Hard to imagine, but the sewing machine was there.

 

[Zelda1010]

What am I missing? Where are you seeing backpacks in that picture?

I think the two taller girls have bags, maybe. I definitely think I see a pink strap on the left shoulder of the girl to our right of LT. On closer inspection, I see just one strap, could be diaper bag duty. I also think maybe amongst the long hair of the girl in front of the graduate might be some hidden black backpack straps, but nothing definitely.

Hope this doesn't cause chaos.:shame::gaah:

 

[human]

Oh I so hope not. I really hope they don't become used to the facts and retain shock at it all. But we've even seen people on here trying to say it could t be that bad because look! They went to Disney!

I found a whole blog about this case by someone who thinks they weren't abused but that this is part of some CIA mind control, Illuminati thing.

The Illuminati crosses people with all kinds of beliefs. From the religious right to the “Progressive “left. I have lots to say on it but I won’t. The internet has been a curse and a blessing both.

As a teacher, I feel we have failed education wise in so many ways. But then again, it is the politicians that drive curriculum and textbooks.

How are we going to get people who are not filled with self loathing. That is what I wonder.

 

[Amonet]

I heard a theory about families choosing names for their childrean starting with the same letter.
Allegedly it happens in families that are not well grounded, they need to convince themselves and others that they are a unit, when in reality they have some doubts about exactly that.


(Not in all cases of course, and it is just a theory, but by a psychologist.)

Same could be said about the uniform clothing and hairstyles.

P.S.
I noticed a sewing machine in a photo from one of their homes.
Did they home produce some of the clothes possibly

?​

The Elvis dresses look very home made.
LT

?​

Hard to imagine, but the sewing machine was there.

I wouldn't say that would be the explanation for all families, some probably just like the sound of names with that letter or have some other reason. Combined with the clothing and the 'fake' wonderful happy family image I think it sounds very likely for DT and LT.

Someone found those bridesmaid dresses for sale online, so I think they were purchased rather than home-made.

 

[gitana1]

I think the two taller girls have bags, maybe. I definitely think I see a pink strap on the left shoulder of the girl to our right of LT. On closer inspection, I see just one strap, could be diaper bag duty. I also think maybe amongst the long hair of the girl in front of the graduate might be some hidden black backpack straps, but nothing definitely.

Hope this doesn't cause chaos.:shame::gaah:

When did they create a "school" at their address? Prior to that, don't some homeschooling systems include monthly instruction or classes or testing via the district? Could it be they did that prior to creating their own school and further isolating them? Or did they have the kids wear "uniforms" and backpacks again to create the veneer or normalcy?

 

[SATA]

I wouldn't say that would be the explanation for all families, some probably just like the sound of names with that letter or have some other reason. Combined with the clothing and the 'fake' wonderful happy family image I think it sounds very likely for DT and LT.

Someone found those bridesmaid dresses for sale online, so I think they were purchased rather than home-made.

They wont sell many of those now!

 

[Electric Sheep]

I had two younger sisters and my mother used to dress us the same. Uniform for school, then for after school and Sundays she would buy three of everything. Maybe in different colors. It used to drive me crazy, and at 10 I rebelled and refused to go along with it. I still remember the first dress I got that didn't match. How I loved that dress!

 

[SkipperKey3]

They wont sell many of those now!

(This is regarding the pink plaid dresses worn by the siblings to two of the vow renewals)

A while ago somebody put a link to the same dress found for sale on ebay. Don't know who the OP was or when, but it was at least a week ago, I think. At any rate, I clicked on the link to see, and sure enough, those were the same dresses. Bonnie Jean dresses, I think they were called. At any rate, ever since I clicked on that link, I get popups from ebay featuring that dress. Sheesh. :facepalm:

 

[SATA]

(This is regarding the pink plaid dresses worn by the siblings to two of the vow renewals)

A while ago somebody put a link to the same dress found for sale on ebay. Don't know who the OP was or when, but it was at least a week ago, I think. At any rate, I clicked on the link to see, and sure enough, those were the same dresses. Bonnie Jean dresses, I think they were called. At any rate, ever since I clicked on that link, I get popups from ebay featuring that dress. Sheesh. :facepalm:

Lol, I will too. coz I am going to look.....