CA - 13 victims, ages 2 to 29, shackled in home by parents, Perris, 15 Jan 2018 #9

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Not in response to you rsd, but your comment made me wonder,

Why do people call in about animals, but feel other people’s children are not their business?
I think it's partly because people don't have as much of an issue with someone's animal being removed as they do with someone's child being taken.

In general, people have mixed feelings about CPS, because the stories of children being removed for little things are out there. Like the story of the free range children absolutely incensed me. I can still weigh the pros and cons of what CPS does, but many can't. We don't like to see families split up, so we convince ourselves that the little bit of bad we see is probably not a regular occurrence or is the worst of it, and that it's probably OK inside the home. The opposite is probably true.

I really don't believe it's because people value animals more. They don't. But animals are mere property, so people don't have a problem with them being taken any more than a car being repossessed.

Plus, I'll tell you, I don't think people report animal neglect much at all, and probably not more than child neglect is reported. I've been doing animal rescue for almost 20 years now, and we and the shelter get very, very few calls, except for the the annoyance calls (dogs barking).

I'd say a good portion of the calls made about animals come about more because the neighbors have become annoyed with the barking, the smell, the appearance of the property with chained dogs, etc. Nobody cares to call about a malnourished cat, for instance, until it starts pooping in their mulch. Then, suddenly they "care" about the cat's well-being.

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I thought the other article was interesting because it gave me pause. I'm all calling for precedent to be set with this case and lock these two up forever. Yeah, well, how would I feel to see one (or up to 3 could be expected, statistically) of these kids in the news a few years from now, suspected of abusing their own child? Well, I'd be on the side of the innocent, abused child. But I'm in their side right now. So, the article started out saying something like tragic cases make bad law and I had to ratchet my personal rhetoric down a notch in my mind.

Honestly, I'm a little surprised it turned out a bit controversial. This article seems to take a little harder line that homeschooling regulations do in fact need changing, it might be a little more popular perspective here.

I think I have more thoughts to get off my chest on the topic of spouse/child/animal abuse hiding in plain sight, but life is calling.
I'll come back to it ... if we don't get in trouble for off topic discussion.

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-j...d-weak-homeschooling-rules-helped-them-do-it/

A California Couple Abused Their 13 Kids—and Weak Homeschooling Rules Helped Them Do It
“The same laws that allow parents to create these thriving innovative settings allow parents like the Turpins to create private torture homes because there’s no accountability.”
EDWIN RIOS
FEB. 7, 2018 6:00 AM

Damian Dovarganes/AP


<snip>



Hanging over the case as it begins to move through the legal system is the question of how the abuse was able to continue for so long. One reason, it seems, is because David Turpin essentially gamed the state&#8217;s education system by claiming that their residence was a private school&#8212;a status which, in the state, afforded the family near total autonomy and privacy. The Turpin case is of course an extreme one, but it reveals just how easily the homeschooling system in California&#8212;and in many places across the country&#8212;can be abused.


California law does not specifically authorize homeschooling, but rather families who want to homeschool their children must file an affidavit with the state&#8217;s Department of Education every year and register their home as a private school. In 2010, the year the Turpin family moved to California from Fort Worth, Texas, David Turpin did exactly that and established the City Day School. He continued to do so each year, eventually changing the school&#8217;s name to Sandcastle Day School. Those who register their homes as private schools are also required to get an annual fire inspection, but for an unknown reason, the regulation apparently wasn&#8217;t followed in the Turpin case; Perris city officials could not find records that an inspection had occurred at the house.

<snip>
And that&#8212;the yearly affidavit and fire inspection&#8212;was just about all that was required from Turpin to keep his children out of sight. And that&#8217;s far from atypical across the country. California does not necessitate periodic academic assessments; less than half of all states do.<snip>

While all this might seem incredibly lax, California actually requires more interaction between homeschools and the government than many states do. It at least requires families register the homeschool with the state; only 15 other states require that. Eleven states, including Texas, Oklahoma, and Michigan, don&#8217;t require any notice to the state whatsoever to the state, let alone registration.

<snip>

According to Rachel Coleman, co-founder of the Coalition for Responsible Home Education, a group of former homeschoolers who advocate for more regulation in sector, the Turpin case shouldn&#8217;t really be that surprising. She says she&#8217;s even seen other cases like this one. While no state tracks abuse involving homeschooling families, Coleman says that her organization has compiled data, while incomplete, of more than 380 cases of severe and fatal child neglect, such as physical and sexual abuse and food deprivation, involving home-schooling families since 2000; in those cases, they&#8217;ve found more than 120 children have died.<snip>

<snip>

In recent years, lawmakers in at least five states have tried to pass measures to make homeschools more accountable. None so far have been successful, even in places with documented abuse. In 2015 in Michigan, which did not require parents to register their schools with the state, two children were found dead in a freezer in Detroit after, prosecutors said, their mother abused them and pulled them out of public school to homeschool them. The incident sparked a legislative effort that year to establish minimum reporting requirements, such as requiring kids to meet with a doctor, teacher, or other individuals twice a year and keeping records on which kids are homeschooled in the district. But the proposal failed to get even a hearing. Ellen Heinitz, the legislative director for Michigan Rep. Stephanie Chang, the lawmaker who introduced the measure and faced a barrage of angry phone calls from homeschooling parents, told ProPublica that year: &#8220;I&#8217;ve never seen a lobby more powerful and scary. They make the anti-vaxxers seem rational.&#8221; Meanwhile, in Iowa last year, after the death of a 16-year-old girl who was homeschooled and died of starvation, a bill to require quarterly checks on homeschooled students also failed to make it out of committee.
 
I agree with those who say more checks and better support systems (including parenting classes in schools, giving teens a fake 'baby' that cries every few hours for a diaper change and a feed, learning about child development and human psychology, assertiveness classes, etc).

The mandatory reporting rule is a good one. CPS need to be able to provide backup for these reports. They need to not just remove kids for ridiculous reasons but also work with families where they can, and they need to be able to tell the difference in as many cases as they can (considering parents can hide things from them, too!)

I think that worrying about prison sentences is shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted. It's not going to be a deterrent. The sentencing structure needs to exist and be used to punish and keep people from having those children back and keep them from having more children in future in a rinse and repeat method.

I also think that I've heard the US doesn't have a midwife come around to the home after a baby is born? I don't know if they still do it over here (UK) but I'm sure they used to come a few days after the mom/baby came out of hospital, then a week or so later, and then at least one more check. Parents also are supposed to take the baby in for weighing and checks at their local GP's office. I know they still did the home visits about 20 years ago, so I presume that still happens over here. A little bit of mess and not doing the dusting when there's a new baby is fine, but there are limits regarding hygiene and safety, and they can give advice on feeding and baby's sleep habits and offer kind support and maybe see if there are any signs of post partum depression.

It's been known for babies to not be 'saved' by these checks. But I do believe it helps.

I do realize that it's a bit trickier in the US when you have religious-based groups like Amish or the polygamous sects that do live off the grid and don't want government interference in how they do things. But those sects believe in childcare and having a clean and safe home for their babies, so that wouldn't interfere with their religious rights to just have a district nurse/health visitor go in and weigh the baby and have a look around for trailing electrical cords and relevant safety things.

I would raise penalties for not recording a child's birth in conjunction with these things, but I don't know what the penalty should be so that it's the parent who's penalized and not the children.
 
I propose that abuse happens on a spectrum and that is why it is so hard to stop. Abuse of self, abuse of others, abuse of power.

Cuppa Joe in the morning to get going vs red bull/energy shots vs prescription medication vs street drugs

Enjoying the occasional Vienna sausage vs being a broke college kid so that top ramen and Vienna sausages "is what it is" vs a family in poverty in a food dessert (is that what they call them?) who can only get to a gas station to buy these foods for dinner

Power goes to people's heads all the time.

Child discipline is also a necessary "evil", if you will, that happens on a spectrum from very crunchy granola attachment styles to the regimented types of discipline promoted by books like To Train Up a Child (there are parents who promote the book and somehow look past all of the horrible abusive stuff and find the nuggets of goodness....I truly don't know how. Maybe I can find a better title or nickname for this other end of my spectrum). Any of these parenting styles can look truly weird to someone of a different style who has known no other way. Any parenting style can cross the line to abuse.

We fight with significant others and we know it takes two to tango. What if I decide I'm the abuser not the victim? How do I get help for that? I can tell you from personal experience, it is pretty damn hard to be believed and get help as a victim of any of the abuses. Do we make it just as hard for the abuser to get help?


ETA: I noticed I am feeling out this spectrum idea, then still mentioned "crossing a line to abuse" in the discipline part.

Also, it is easy to say if you are the abuser, stop, go to therapy, but I think that abusers of drugs, abusers of power, and even abusers of others are not all one thing or another. Even in seeking help, they face barriers. Can you imagine a well loved boss trying to come out as an abuser of power with none of the abused coming out to back him/her? Because abusers can be well-loved by others.
 
Why did DT start a private school anyway? If there are no checks, then why not just forget about the whole schooling thing altogether? It's not like there is a list of kids who have recently moved here from another state (Texas) and someone goes around checking to make sure they are enrolled in school. They could have stayed more under the radar that way. With the private school in the home thing, there was always the possibility that the fire department might come check (even though they never did).
 
Why did DT start a private school anyway? If there are no checks, then why not just forget about the whole schooling thing altogether? It's not like there is a list of kids who have recently moved here from another state (Texas) and someone goes around checking to make sure they are enrolled in school. They could have stayed more under the radar that way. With the private school in the home thing, there was always the possibility that the fire department might come check (even though they never did).

If someone saw the kids out at odd hours they could potentially call about them not being in school. Also, in their mind, they probably were homeschooling.
 
Why did DT start a private school anyway? If there are no checks, then why not just forget about the whole schooling thing altogether? It's not like there is a list of kids who have recently moved here from another state (Texas) and someone goes around checking to make sure they are enrolled in school. They could have stayed more under the radar that way. With the private school in the home thing, there was always the possibility that the fire department might come check (even though they never did).

Good topical question.

He might have some over-inflated ego there and not realize no one would be looking? We all tend to think others are paying more attention to us than they really are.

He might have been trying to follow the rules as he interpreted them. Breaking rules would get a person caught in his mind? Being an engineer and supposing the alphabetical DVD collection was his pet project, rules and order seem important to him, imo.

Otoh, he may have actually believed he was schooling them and they would eventually need a HS diploma if they were ever able to be "good enough" long enough.
 
Why did DT start a private school anyway? If there are no checks, then why not just forget about the whole schooling thing altogether? It's not like there is a list of kids who have recently moved here from another state (Texas) and someone goes around checking to make sure they are enrolled in school. They could have stayed more under the radar that way. With the private school in the home thing, there was always the possibility that the fire department might come check (even though they never did).
California has specific rules in place about homeschooling.. According to homeschooling authorities, homeschoolers in California have four basic options for teaching their children at home:

File an affidavit to function as a private school.

Enroll in a private school satellite homeschool program.

Have home instruction provided by a certified tutor.

Enroll in an independent study program at home using homeschool curricula..

https://www.time4learning.com/homeschool/homeschooling_in_california.shtml

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I didn't say that they did. I said some were there because it was deliberate abuse, and some because of ignorance and break down of the family. The former should never get their child back. The latter should be provided with resources and an attempt to make the family whole.

Where I lived in MN, the evaluations were made of the situation. I was a teacher so I only saw the results, not the process of how anything was determined, CPS where I lived worked to get the idea they were there to help. If children were not removed, there were in home skills and interventions for issues. Respite, help with cleaning, I do not know what all.

Children removed from the home had parents who were on plans for them to get their children back. They had to meet the plans such as getting drug free or getting rid of the abusive boyfriend or husband. Only court order can remove a child.

If the area where you live does not offer these services for CPS, that would be something to look into to improve.
 
Honestly, for all we know, they WERE homeschooling them. Some were adults, thus not "school age", so probably they wouldn't be in the " school". But, it sounds as if the school aged ones could at least read and write. I am not trying to say a great job was being done with this, but just they may have been doing something.

Where I live, I am pretty sure homeschooled children have to pass tests to prove their grade level and show progress. I knew someone who homeschooled for a couple of years due to the child's health issues (resolved now). They met with a teacher at least a couple of times a semester. They traveled to the teacher rather than the teacher traveling to their house though. This was some years ago as the girl is in high school now and this was first and second grade for her. And not California. But, she went into third grade with no problem. Eta... So, honestly, if it is still that way, I don't see a problem with my state.
 
I propose that abuse happens on a spectrum and that is why it is so hard to stop. Abuse of self, abuse of others, abuse of power.

Cuppa Joe in the morning to get going vs red bull/energy shots vs prescription medication vs street drugs

Enjoying the occasional Vienna sausage vs being a broke college kid so that top ramen and Vienna sausages "is what it is" vs a family in poverty in a food dessert (is that what they call them?) who can only get to a gas station to buy these foods for dinner

Power goes to people's heads all the time.

Child discipline is also a necessary "evil", if you will, that happens on a spectrum from very crunchy granola attachment styles to the regimented types of discipline promoted by books like To Train Up a Child (there are parents who promote the book and somehow look past all of the horrible abusive stuff and find the nuggets of goodness....I truly don't know how. Maybe I can find a better title or nickname for this other end of my spectrum). Any of these parenting styles can look truly weird to someone of a different style who has known no other way. Any parenting style can cross the line to abuse.

We fight with significant others and we know it takes two to tango. What if I decide I'm the abuser not the victim? How do I get help for that? I can tell you from personal experience, it is pretty damn hard to be believed and get help as a victim of any of the abuses. Do we make it just as hard for the abuser to get help?


ETA: I noticed I am feeling out this spectrum idea, then still mentioned "crossing a line to abuse" in the discipline part.

Also, it is easy to say if you are the abuser, stop, go to therapy, but I think that abusers of drugs, abusers of power, and even abusers of others are not all one thing or another. Even in seeking help, they face barriers. Can you imagine a well loved boss trying to come out as an abuser of power with none of the abused coming out to back him/her? Because abusers can be well-loved by others.

Do onto others, That is a way to look at it, What is ok? Using power to subjegate or bend to the will of the power person is not ok.

Step one is to get rid of the idea that the child is owned by the parents. We have been working on the idea that the woman is not owned by the husband, we are working on the idea that women are equal.

Maybe when women get full respect, children will be next. Until then, children get to be manipulated and harmed in many ways,
 
Where I lived in MN, the evaluations were made of the situation. I was a teacher so I only saw the results, not the process of how anything was determined, CPS where I lived worked to get the idea they were there to help. If children were not removed, there were in home skills and interventions for issues. Respite, help with cleaning, I do not know what all.

Children removed from the home had parents who were on plans for them to get their children back. They had to meet the plans such as getting drug free or getting rid of the abusive boyfriend or husband. Only court order can remove a child.

If the area where you live does not offer these services for CPS, that would be something to look into to improve.

For example; If a child is found to be in a home with drug abuse, and the family is falling apart, then yes, they take those kids. That is not deliberate abuse most times. It is the result of addiction. The families work with CPS, have visits, have a plan and caseworker, to attempt to get their lives on track, to get their child(ren) back. Not all addicts can do so though.

In the case of grandchild's adopted brother, he'd had no attention at all, and at five, was not toilet trained, and watched his one parent murder the other. Never would that situation be repaired. The young lady who stayed with us was sexually molested from around five to 13, by her father. No attempt to put that family back together. As a result though, she went through mulitple foster homes, had children, very young, but was not able to maintain. Male "parent" got five years, yet damaged her for life. Each case is extremely different. There is no cookie cutter plan for each family. CPS won't hardly take kids over 13, out of a home, unless it is just extremely dangerous (needles, violence directed toward the child, etc.). They've made it that long, there's few fosters for teens, and they'll be out of foster care at 18, with little options. Hardly anyone adopts a 14 y/o.
 
For example; If a child is found to be in a home with drug abuse, and the family is falling apart, then yes, they take those kids. That is not deliberate abuse most times. It is the result of addiction. The families work with CPS, have visits, have a plan and caseworker, to attempt to get their lives on track, to get their child(ren) back. Not all addicts can do so though.

In the case of grandchild's adopted brother, he'd had no attention at all, and at five, was not toilet trained, and watched his one parent murder the other. Never would that situation be repaired. The young lady who stayed with us was sexually molested from around five to 13, by her father. No attempt to put that family back together. As a result though, she went through mulitple foster homes, had children, very young, but was not able to maintain. Male "parent" got five years, yet damaged her for life. Each case is extremely different. There is no cookie cutter plan for each family. CPS won't hardly take kids over 13, out of a home, unless it is just extremely dangerous (needles, violence directed toward the child, etc.). They've made it that long, there's few fosters for teens, and they'll be out of foster care at 18, with little options. Hardly anyone adopts a 14 y/o.

This is a good,example of how CPS does not swoop in and remove children. Good to,see that it operates the same way in your state. Providing services for the family.

These things are expensive and there is not enough money for it to be done well. I wonder why people are so happy to spend money on prisons but do not want to soend the funds on things that would help people
 
Regarding the school- do you suppose their plan was to have printed high school diplomas for each child? would
that suffice to get the oldest boy into comm. college?
 
My son is an engineer. His friends are engineers. They are very precise in some things. But I do not know any of my son’s friends that are on any autism spectrum.

My son in law is a consultant and he said that he learned while getting his Master’s in Business that engineers do not care about money. They are more concerned with their work. Ideas, theories.

My father was actually a civil engineer, and it is among THOSE the study showed there were many on the autism spectrum.
My father was not one of them, so of course not all.

DT just strikes me as someone who could be mildly autistic.
 
Regarding the school- do you suppose their plan was to have printed high school diplomas for each child? would
that suffice to get the oldest boy into comm. college?

Well, if it didn't, he could take a GED (maybe they were thinking?)

But, I think there is some provision to cover home schoolers (specifically California) that someone went over in another thread.
 
I agree with those who say more checks and better support systems (including parenting classes in schools, giving teens a fake 'baby' that cries every few hours for a diaper change and a feed, learning about child development and human psychology, assertiveness classes, etc).

The mandatory reporting rule is a good one. CPS need to be able to provide backup for these reports. They need to not just remove kids for ridiculous reasons but also work with families where they can, and they need to be able to tell the difference in as many cases as they can (considering parents can hide things from them, too!)

I think that worrying about prison sentences is shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted. It's not going to be a deterrent. The sentencing structure needs to exist and be used to punish and keep people from having those children back and keep them from having more children in future in a rinse and repeat method.

I also think that I've heard the US doesn't have a midwife come around to the home after a baby is born? I don't know if they still do it over here (UK) but I'm sure they used to come a few days after the mom/baby came out of hospital, then a week or so later, and then at least one more check. Parents also are supposed to take the baby in for weighing and checks at their local GP's office. I know they still did the home visits about 20 years ago, so I presume that still happens over here. A little bit of mess and not doing the dusting when there's a new baby is fine, but there are limits regarding hygiene and safety, and they can give advice on feeding and baby's sleep habits and offer kind support and maybe see if there are any signs of post partum depression.

It's been known for babies to not be 'saved' by these checks. But I do believe it helps.

I do realize that it's a bit trickier in the US when you have religious-based groups like Amish or the polygamous sects that do live off the grid and don't want government interference in how they do things. But those sects believe in childcare and having a clean and safe home for their babies, so that wouldn't interfere with their religious rights to just have a district nurse/health visitor go in and weigh the baby and have a look around for trailing electrical cords and relevant safety things.

I would raise penalties for not recording a child's birth in conjunction with these things, but I don't know what the penalty should be so that it's the parent who's penalized and not the children.

BBM
I'm uncertain how long it has been around, but it's something that one signs up for, and it's available to anyone, in the state of Ky. It's not mandatory, but, I think it's kinda nice though. Kentucky Health Access Nurturing Development Services (HANDS).

http://chfs.ky.gov/dph/mch/ecd/hands.htm
 
My father was actually a civil engineer, and it is among THOSE the study showed there were many on the autism spectrum.
My father was not one of them, so of course not all.

DT just strikes me as someone who could be mildly autistic.

The organizing of videos could show that. Is it a stereotype that people with autism like things organized and predictable? It seems the chaos of the interior would not be pleasant emotionally if that is the case
 
This is a good,example of how CPS does not swoop in and remove children. Good to,see that it operates the same way in your state. Providing services for the family.

These things are expensive and there is not enough money for it to be done well. I wonder why people are so happy to spend money on prisons but do not want to soend the funds on things that would help people

BBM
I'v wondered that so many times...
 
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