CA - 13 victims, ages 2 to 29, shackled in home by parents, Perris, 15 Jan 2018 #9

[WestieMom]

Yes, engineers are twice as likely to have autism, finance pro's are 4 X as likely and males in a medical field are 6 X
as likely to have autism. Sometimes a parent may not have been diagnosed, but the children show up with autism.
Lots of interesting studies going on in this field.

Worked with an amazingly smart neurologist who has Aspergers. Not very interested in small talk, but a great neurologist.


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[human]

That doesn't make me want to read the article. "Liberty" is an interesting word considering we're talking about 'children' being held prisoner...

I wish you would read it and give your impressions

 

[Lucyray]

The article talks about liberty. As if the children don’t exist except as a possession if the parents to do as they wish.

We regulate cats and dogs more than children.

That is not my interpretation of the article at all! Some valid questions are raised in the article, inquiring just how far government should be involved in regulating how parenting is done. The article, in my opinion, is worth reading.


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[human]

That is not my interpretation of the article at all! Some valid questions are raised in the article, inquiring just how far government should be involved in regulating how parenting is done. The article, in my opinion, is worth reading.


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Why should govt not be involved? Who speaks for the children?

 

[mtnlites]

Here in south Louisiana, Cajun country, we hug and/or kiss when greeting people we know. It’s a cultural trait...we talk to strangers in checkout lines...big conversations.

Here in Kentucky, too. It took my British husband a long time to get used to that. Well, that and the fact that when people said, "Drop in and visit any time and eat with us" that they meant it.

 

[Pamela_Brewer]

Here in Kentucky, too. It took my British husband a long time to get used to that. Well, that and the fact that when people said, "Drop in and visit any time and eat with us" that they meant it.

In Georgia, my aunt always said, "Y'all come home with us now." As she was leaving our house.
As a small child, I thought she really meant it!
I pitched a fit once and she was almost forced into taking me! Lol.
My mom got mad and told her stop saying things to my child that you don't mean!
It wasn't just at our house, she said it at everyone's house. [emoji848]
I still don't get it and I'm 50!
MOO
We were NOT a HUGGY kissy family at all.

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[mtnlites]

That is not my interpretation of the article at all! Some valid questions are raised in the article, inquiring just how far government should be involved in regulating how parenting is done. The article, in my opinion, is worth reading.


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That was a GREAT article. And I agree that there are some gray areas. "Do we really want to encourage people to report on their neighbor's parenting practices more than they already do" raises a good point. I have to be honest, I have started making decisions about my kids based NOT on their safety but on what the neighbors will think about my parenting skills. There are many things that I feel are perfectly safe for my kids to do but I refrain from allowing them to do it because I am afraid of what the neighbors may say or do. People are terrified of getting CPS called on them. I worked with child protection for a while-I have seen the reports. Around 80% of our reported cases were essentially unfounded-disgruntled friends or family members trying to get other people in trouble, people on the outside of a situation not understanding the family dynamic, etc. Lots of baseless claims. And while those cases were never officially "opened", they sure as heck caused problems for the family during the investigation.

We are about as close to "hippy" parents as you could possibly get. If I told you all some of the things that we do in our household, and what we allow our children to do, many of you would have concerns. But our children are well fed, loved, educated in a good school, have reached all their developmental milestones, and they live in a safe, warm house. They are appropriately bonded with us. Some would say "too" bonded because our kids would rather hang out with us than their friends (they say we are more fun).

There is definitely a gray area about neighbor/friend reporting. I, personally, don't want to live in a world where we are all policing each other and parents are afraid of doing anything outside of the Pinterest-worthy, Facebook-picture perfect world for fear of someone calling the cops on them. On the other hand, there are instances (the Turpins being the one in this example) where it is CLEAR that someone should have made a report but didn't. (The one thing that stands out to me is the dirty house left behind in Texas and the dead animals.)

So what IS the solution? I'm not sure. Something in the middle, I reckon. Learning the signs of abuse and neglect and knowing the difference between THOSE signs and simple parenting differences which may be weird but are not dangerous or abusive.

 

[her]

Engineers are indeed a different breed of cat. Their brains work in ways mine doesn't even dream of doing. Physicists too. I think all they are equations in everything.

Sons a physics major doing real research atm, studying with a certain rocket today.
There is a saying physicists figures the universe out and instructs the engineers what to do.

 

[Doghairrules]

OT
That is so sweet.

I love families like that which are willing to share and make sure everyone is happy and taken care of.

This reminded me of something which made me a little sad to think about. I come from a family that "hugs". Whenever we see relatives and friends we havent seen in awhile we just naturally hug each other.

I used to think all families were like that until the day my wife was introduced to my grandparents and Aunts and Uncles. My Uncle hugged her in greeting and she later told me she at first pulled away and was scared because she wasnt use to that and didnt know why he was reaching for her.

After she told me this I realized her family was the exact opposite where they never hugged or even kissed each other in greetings. Even when she would visit them after a lengthy time away she never would hug or kiss her mom or dad even. It was the way they were brought up and I found it rather sad. They were still very nice people and very kind in other ways. But the absense of any closeness was very noticeable and I felt it was something they missed out on.

I suppose families are different in way like this and its probably how her parents may have been raised too.

Given the choice I prefer to have a close family that is comfortable with hugging relatives and close friends as part of greetings.

Getting back to this case, I suspect the kids did not get much closeness from their parents.

My family did not hug. Every now and then someone in my generation or older tries it and it is so very awkward.

I was lucky, though. My chosen mom taught me about the healing power of hugs when I was about 30. I hug people regularly now. I hope someone teaches these kids that.

 

[Amonet]

That doesn't make me want to read the article. "Liberty" is an interesting word considering we're talking about 'children' being held prisoner...

Well, we are going a bit off topic, so we shouldn't dedicate too many posts to the article.

But...I think sometimes things are seen too much in black and white, and at times like this we want a total cure or nothing. We can't have a total cure, but early intervention might make a difference for a lot of families even if it can't catch or prevent every case, every tragedy. I think this is partly why the 'new laws' effect often doesn't seem to help much, because it's about doing something that's popular in the face of a big news case and maybe doesn't take into account all the nuances that exist, and then when the next round of funding comes along the newly raised funding isn't going to stay at that raised level, a recession will be just around the corner, there will be cutbacks to programs and layoff of CPS staff, etc.

With something like homeschooling checks, you've also got the issue that you're spending a lot of money and time on the majority of families where there is no problem at all, just so you can maybe identify the tiny percentage where there is a problem, and the even smaller percentage that's as bad as the Turpins. The vocal majority of "I don't want big govt interfering in how I raise my kids" is going to win out, because they're the ones with the voting bloc and that has to be added to the financial side. There are far fewer public schools that need to be checked than there are homeschooling families (I presume) and for every check that's made that's going to cover hundreds or thousands of children, whereas homeschool checks will be for 1 to 12ish at a time, so that's a lot of resources to put into those checks. And what should those checks consist of? I'd like to see a basic medical done at least once a year, height weight charts, dental check, eyesight and hearing checks, a check of the home, see the schoolwork that's being done, and photographic evidence of some kind of educational trip with a minimum of four per year, to a museum, swimming classes, a nature hike or whatever the parents choose so that it doesn't have to cost a huge amount for the family but must be outside the home.

I think there should be a report made for every child that doesn't get enrolled in school and every child whose enrollment lapses, because I want kids like Bella and Little Jacob and Madison to be found and identified easily, and I want someone to know that the Turpin siblings exist, because they do exist, because they're children who didn't choose to whom they were born, and the reality is that not all families are even acceptable places for children.

 

[TeaTime]

Here in south Louisiana, Cajun country, we hug and/or kiss when greeting people we know. It’s a cultural trait...we talk to strangers in checkout lines...big conversations.

Teche - oh but yes! If you meet someone new at the beginning of a party, you kiss them good bye before you leave. That is how we roll. EVERYONE gets a kiss, or you get a phone call "why didn't you come kiss me goodbye?"

Some of our favorite people are the strangers we talk to in check out lines. And we are all on a first name basis with all the cashiers. And everyone calls everyone "Sugar", "Sweetheart", "Precious", "Darling", etc. etc.

I once moved away and decided to come home when, on a visit back, I walked into a grocery store, the door being held by an elderly gentleman wearing a guerraberra shirt and he said, "Come on Che Bay, I got the door". I missed the affection talk in Yankee land. LOL

Where you at, Teche? I'm over by NOLA.

How's your Mominem?

 

[human]

As a retired teacher from liberal MN, I know that my coworkers and I were very upset about the lack of action by CPS.

In MN, there are rules that CPS has to follow. I do not know what they are. I do know after several failed CPS reports on my part, I got tough.

Not enough staff to look at everything in CPS world.

I think it is a myth that people are looked at by CPS if there is a report. I have not seen it. Even one time my neighbor boy was hitting his sister’s head on the car hood while he babysat.

Hubby went over and I called CPS. All they did was call the mother at work. I saw that event with my own eyes and what happened after our report on the meth using mother (did not have a clue she was a meth user until a couple of years later).

No, I do not believe in the harrassed parents by CPS.

Please explain why we have rules for how dogs should be treated but we are lax on kids,

As an adult, I rage at the thought of how little human beings are allowed to be treated all in the name of parental rights.

Blanket training. Really! Hitting children. Really! As an adult would you allow that for your ownself? Have your husband sit you on a blanket and decide how far you can roam or hit you for infractions determined by him?

 

[ilovepierre]

Interesting you mention that.
Alcohol baby syndrome was the first thing I thought when I saw the faces of some of the siblings.
Most pronounced in the middle boy, but two of the younger girls and one of the older have those eyes too, I think.

Did the DT and/or LT drink alcohol? Also during some of LTs pregnancies.

IMO, I think it's just the effects of severe malnutrition and lack of basic health care.

 

[Lucyray]

Why should govt not be involved? Who speaks for the children?

The article doesn't say they shouldn't, but rather asks the question, 'how far'.


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[mtnlites]

The article doesn't say they shouldn't, but rather asks the question, 'how far'.


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That's what I got out of it as well. The question isn't "should" but how much is too much. Not only is there a question of at which point should they become involved but there's also a point of how much policing should "strangers" do. People already have different ideas of what constitutes as abuse and neglect-and those don't always align with what CPS thinks. (We once had a case in which a teacher turned in a family for abuse because the child's grandfather had died and the parents were telling her that his spirit would occasionally visit her. The teacher was adamant that this was religious abuse. It wasn't a case we moved forward in.) There are extremes from end to the other-you're going to have those who call in every family who does things differently from them and you'll have those who are witnessing CLEAR signs of abuse (bruises, signs of malnutrition, extreme filth, etc.) and do nothing. It's that middle ground that's important.

 

[Satch]

I don' know the requirements for a general education associates degree at that community college, but I looked up local community college and communications (speech or public speaking) is a requirement. Also IIRC he toook astronomy which would fulfill a course needed in science.
I know that whenever my sons had to talk to administration or the finance department they would not talk to me. They would only talk to the student. I bet LT through a fit if they wouldn't let her speak.
I wonder if after he asked to be able to be friends with a girl if they pulled him out and he continued his education online at another community college.

I saw JT's transcript online. I don't recall an Astronomy course. But I do know that there was a girl in his class who said that she had no friends to JT. JT replied back that he also had no friends, and asked Louise on the second night of class if they could be friends. Note that the girl had met LT the first night of class.

The girl said LT just said "Whatever" and got in the van with JT, and JT never came back to the class again. I do not see any in completes on JT's transcript. Obviously they are showing only part of it because his ID can't be known. Maybe he dropped so quickly that the course did not show on the transcript. Why did JT stop going to school is most likely because he was connecting too much with the outside world, or over time revealed something that DT and LT did not like.

We are talking about a Mother with a 10th grade education. Likely even worse than that, because material covered can vary so much from school district to school district. My district was near the top in the state and competes with some of the best public schools in the country. We came out above average to outstanding on all nationalized scholastic tests. We are a college bound district.

Isolated areas that have problems with school violence, segregation, discrimination, and districts where children don't have the same opportunities or desire for success in learning, could be held back in materials and concepts. The materials that some districts with high expectations might be teaching advanced material to 8th grade students, Districts with learning problems might be teaching 8th grade material to 10th graders.

What this means that LT may have been a 10th grader, but her West Virginia School district may have been actually teaching at an 8th grade level because they had lower expectations. The impact of this, she could have had the knowledge of a 13-14 year old. Used to getting her way, and throwing tantrums when she didn't. No way fit to have children or be a Mother in any way, shape, or form. LT has the mental mindset of a early teenager.

Satch

 

[Amonet]

What I'm hearing is that sometimes CPS are called for silly or fake reasons. That takes up their timeload. Sometimes they're marginal reasons and it might be hard to determine the best course of action -- it's not always going to be removal of a child, at least not permanently, but extra support for families could be good. And CPS not always appearing the bad guy that takes children away would be a good thing imho.

Then there are terrible cases that get reported and kids are saved from things going further, usually by removal from the home. Sometimes those terrible cases end up in terrible injuries and deaths. In the meantime, prior to reports and during investigations children are suffering at the hands of the people who they be able to trust to care for them decently (it's never going to be perfect!).

Sometimes there are no reports, bad stuff happens behind closed doors.

There's never going to be a one-size fits all answer. CPS can't do their jobs if they're understaffed and overworked and if there aren't enough foster and adoptive homes and other types of support for children and families.

We don't get to hear about the 'success' stories, whatever they consist of. We get to hear about the worst cases and the worst failures.

It's the fault of DT and LT that this has happened and that's prevented these kids from getting help before now.

There are other families out there needing help of all kinds.

And, then we have the question of what happens to the kids afterwards, and in this case they're not all minors but they need a lot of support. Other people who grow up with parents who have things like NPD or BPD or other difficulties, they still need support when they leave that home. A lot of people need help to avoid falling into the pitfalls of generational neglect and abuse, bad choices in relationships with spouses and healthier mental health and relationships all around.

We're all people, yet sometimes the world doesn't seem to be people-focused enough? I hope over time that will improve. A lot of social things have improved over the past 100 years or so. Don't forget it wasn't that long ago that we sent children down mines and up chimneys. We've come a long way in a relatively short time really. I think it's about continuing to adapt and improve, step by step.

 

[BeesInMyBonnet]

I’ve been thinking a lot about various cases I know of where CPS stepped in—and where it didn’t.

The case of the “free-range children” in Maryland came to mind. https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...611a60dd8e5_story.html?utm_term=.b6c47644e401

I’ve also thought back to when I was in a waiting room while my son was in speech therapy. A dad and his son were there waiting, and the dad’s treatment of the son tore my heart out. He yanked him by the arm, said, “Get over here, boy,” smacked him, and was verbally abusive—all because the boy closed blinds on a window.

I stepped out and called police, and the call taker said that she would not send out an officer.

I argued, “If the father is treating the boy so terribly in public—in a mandatory reporter’s waiting room—what does he do to the boy behind closed doors?”

The call taker again declined to send out a unit, saying police would need to see the abuse occur in their presence.

I said, “I’m standing in the office parking lot. I am right across the street from a police substation. There is a patrol car right there. Can’t anyone come by and check on the boy? Talk to the dad? See if the boy is ok? Casually observe?”

Again, refusal.

Cut to another instance when I was driving behind a car and called 911 because two toddlers were running back and forth across the back seat. There were no child seats in view. Seat belts were not in use. That call taker had me follow the car until police could catch up and pull over the driver.

Last week at work, I handled paperwork that led me down one rabbit hole and then another. Long story short(-ish), police were asked to do a welfare check on a family. When police arrived at the home, the mom sobbed at the door, begging police to not go inside because, she said, once they saw the living conditions, they would take her children from her.

Police entered the home. CPS arrived. The home had no heat, no working stove, no working refrigerator. Perishable food was lined up on the floors, against the walls, in hopes that the cold walls and floors would keep the food from spoiling.

The toilets overflowed with feces. The mom said they hadn’t been flushed in a month or so. The upstairs sink and shower also had copious amounts of feces in them.

There was no hot water—and no feces-free shower in which to bathe. There was a “golf-cart size” hole in the ceiling. The home had one working light: a desk lamp in the living room.

The mom explained that her husband left a year ago, leaving her with their six children and no financial support. She was embarrassed and doing the best she could, she said, but too proud to ask for help for fear of losing her children.

Neighbors fed the kids occasionally and allowed them to shower at their houses. None spoke up. None offered more guidance and help than meals and occasional showers.

The county sent out a building inspector who deemed the home uninhabitable. The mom and children were placed in a rental home. She is required to get mental health treatment. CPS checks on the kids and the living conditions regularly.

And then, on the other, other hand, there’s my former neighbor who used to leave her two-year-old strapped in her high chair, eating breakfast alone with two dogs, while mom and grade-schooler son walked down the street and around the corner to the bus stop.

I asked her the what-ifs: What if the two-year-old chokes? What if she tries to get out of the highchair and it tips? What if she becomes entangled in the straps? What if the dogs mom rescued from the streets of Bolivia decide they want the little girl’s Cheerios? What if there is a fire?

I was told that she is a free-range parent, that I’m a catastrophic thinker, that I shouldn’t meddle. 911’s lack of concern for the abused boy in the speech therapist’s waiting room made me hem and haw when I considered calling in my concerns about High Chair Mom.

And, finally, there’s the 10-year-old boy who walked a mile or so barefoot on a little country road here in my county and knocked on a stranger’s door, asking for food.

The boy was injured, hungry, and dirty. The boy’s parents punished him by forcing him to kneel for hours on a board with nails sticking out of it. They burned his hands on a stove burner as another punishment. He had never attended school and lived in the middle of nowhere, so no one knew of him or missed him or worried about him.

The people whose doorstep he walked to called police. CPS took custody of the boy. The parents have been charged with felony child abuse.

There’s just so much of this out there. I’ve intervened at least three times and have been shut down by 911, been told to chill, and, alternatively, been told to “follow that car!”

I don’t know where I’m going with this or why I’m sharing it. I suppose I just can’t wrap my mind around the concern and the lack of concern; the alarm and the scoldings to chill; the immediate response, the appropriate response, the heartfelt response, and the lack of response in such cases.

Anyway . . . [emoji53]


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[human]

That's what I got out of it as well. The question isn't "should" but how much is too much. Not only is there a question of at which point should they become involved but there's also a point of how much policing should "strangers" do. People already have different ideas of what constitutes as abuse and neglect-and those don't always align with what CPS thinks. (We once had a case in which a teacher turned in a family for abuse because the child's grandfather had died and the parents were telling her that his spirit would occasionally visit her. The teacher was adamant that this was religious abuse. It wasn't a case we moved forward in.) There are extremes from end to the other-you're going to have those who call in every family who does things differently from them and you'll have those who are witnessing CLEAR signs of abuse (bruises, signs of malnutrition, extreme filth, etc.) and do nothing. It's that middle ground that's important.

People call the police about all kinds of things they do not deal with. You cannot stop people from calling things in.

I was a mandated reporter. The decree was that if one had reason to believe, then call it in. Sometimes they have other reports that do not amount to enough to do anythng but your report may be the one that makes the difference.

I had a girl from a family where the father bit the girl on the arm to show jer somethings hurt, Another teacher had the brother and he had come to school with a slap print on his face,

I called CPS and insisted they go check it out, The father had special cognitive needs. CPS decided it was all ok.

Amother boy in my room came to school covered in dog feces everyday. Everyday we washed his clothes. A parent reported to me that the home was filthy. I called it in and it was investigated, The mother removed the child from my classroom, The mother got some help with proper cleaning skills.

The child had no friends because it was known the house was filthy and parents did not want their children playing with him. Sweet little guy who was going to suffer. Is thar OK?

Thirty years of teaching. I told the parents I was a mandated reporter and that the children came first when I started the school year. Many many stories. And then the ones I found out about later because the parents were so clever covering up what was in fact going on. I believed them.

My loyalty is with the little shining faces and the little shining eyes. Children are not possessions.

 

[rsd1200]

Minnesotans do not hug much. We have our comfort zone which is a few feet from the person. Scandinavian. Of course, everything is individual, but I have never seen family hugging when growing up . We hug our little children and then it stops at some age.

In the last few years there has been a focus on not having children forced to hug aunties and uncles when meeting. That is to teach that the body belongs to the child and s/he is under no obligation to share it.

Where I live in a Third World country, kissing everyone when arriving in a room is automatic. And kissing goodbye. Everyone is greeted that way. Even our servers in restaurants greet us that way because they know us,

BBM

Although I'm not what most would call a "hugger", I greet my mother with a hug and kiss and usually leave both with a hug and kiss. I like my personal space though. Preferably about the perimeter o a Hula-Hoop. I'm planning to put suspenders one of the kid's old hoops downstairs, and wear it every time I have to go to Walmart.

As for the kids being made to hug and such. My parents never forced us to do that. We'd be expected to be polite but we were never forced to give hugs and kisses. Also, if I ask for a 'bye hug, and a grandkid isn't feelin' it, that's quite alright.