CA - 13 victims, ages 2 to 29, shackled in home by parents, Perris, 15 Jan 2018 #9

[SkipperKey3]

Great questions!

I wonder that same thing. Accolades to the oldest Turpin son for doing so well and having at least some small exposure to the outside world, even for that short of a time. I never thought about him wearing glasses! I will give some numbered ideas as theries to answer the questions. But these are questions that we would need David and Louise to answer to get the full picture:

1.) JT was about twenty six years old. He may have had some early life experiances before the family became "nuts." He was probably given rights because DT saw him as a "leader." Maybe JT was supposed to be the patriach of the family if DT and Louise were to die.

2.) Note that it is believed that son JT was home-schooled. Maybe because he was the best behaved and the least problematic, his "reward" was being able to attend college classes. I am sure that this took A TON of convincing and DT and LT made certain demands of JT. "You will succeed You will not disclose our family values to anybody at school. You will talk only when spoken to by your teachers.Your Mother will wait for you at school for all classes. You will come straight home after school."

3.) The classes that JT was taking were only basic skills kinds of classes, so they really would not help JT get ahead considering his age, the level of those classes mostly geared for Freshmen or Sophmore high school students at best.

4.) Maybe this class attending wasn't a choice, but a demand by the Turpins, that the eldest son had to take classes, because he was old enough to do that. However, this goes against everything that was the parental Turpin's life-style to avoid people as much as possible, keep to themselves, and chagrin against anybody who offered any kind of conversation to them. JT had an opportunity to open up at school. But maybe that is why LT was always there. To prevent him from disclosing any outside information that wasn't specific to assigned coursework. But again, why take that risk?

5.) The other kids were probably at home chained up and rotting in their filthy clothes and environment.

Satch

And add to that the fact that despite his decent grades, he seems to have dropped out. Lost his "reward" somehow?

As for #5, I think it is possible that DT worked from home during those evenings. But even on those occasions that neither DT nor LT were there, I'm guessing that some of the younger ones were in restraints and the older ones had been given strict instructions to watch over them and not leave them alone. It's easy for us to think it would have been easy to just walk out, but we have to remember the conditioning and fear - repercussions that were dealt with severely, both to them and to their siblings - that would prevent the older siblings from walking out.
Of course, all just speculation on my part.

 

[SkipperKey3]

:dunno: Looks like purse straps to me.

That had occurred to me as well, but I don't see any evidence in any of the other pictures that they ever owned or carried purses. I can't say that I've scoured the pictures looking for such a detail, but I just can't remember any pictures where any of the girls had a purse.
Of course, the same thing might be said about backpacks, too, I guess.
All we can really see is that there are some straps. And at least one of them, maybe the pink one, could very well be a diaper bag.
Why would the graduate be wearing her cap and gown and be carrying a backpack at the same time anyway? I can't quite make sense of that one. In that situation, a purse would make more sense.

 

[Zelda1010]

This website explains the general differences between Concurrent Sentencing, Consecutive Sentencing, and Double Punishment. We can study how this would apply to the Turpin parents if convicted:

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/concurrent-consecutive-sentences-double-punishment.html

Satch

I found this too, specific to CA

http://www.courts.ca.gov/cms/rules/index.cfm?title=four&linkid=rule4_425

2018 California Rules of Court
Rule 4.425. Factors affecting concurrent or consecutive sentences

Factors affecting the decision to impose consecutive rather than concurrent

sentences include:

(a) Facts relating to crimes

Facts relating to the crimes, including whether or not:

(1)The crimes and their objectives were predominantly independent of each other;

(2)The crimes involved separate acts of violence or threats of violence; or

(3)The crimes were committed at different times or separate places, rather than being committed so closely in time and place as to indicate a single period of aberrant behavior.

(Subd (a) amended effective January 1, 2018; previously amended effective January 1, 1991, and January 1, 2007.)

(b) Other facts and limitations

Any circumstances in aggravation or mitigation may be considered in deciding whether to impose consecutive rather than concurrent sentences, except:

(1)A fact used to impose the upper term;

(2)A fact used to otherwise enhance the defendant's sentence in prison or county jail under section 1170(h); and

(3)A fact that is an element of the crime may not be used to impose consecutive sentences.

Subd (b) amended effective January 1, 2018; previously amended effective January 1, 1991, January 1, 2007, and January 1, 2017.)

Rule 4.425 amended effective January 1, 2018; adopted as rule 425 effective July 1, 1977; previously renumbered effective January 1, 2001; previously amended effective January 1, 1991, January 1, 2007, and January 1, 2017.

Advisory Committee Comment

The sentencing judge should be aware that there are some cases in which the law mandates consecutive sentences.

 

[Zelda1010]

That had occurred to me as well, but I don't see any evidence in any of the other pictures that they ever owned or carried purses. I can't say that I've scoured the pictures looking for such a detail, but I just can't remember any pictures where any of the girls had a purse.
Of course, the same thing might be said about backpacks, too, I guess.
All we can really see is that there are some straps. And at least one of them, maybe the pink one, could very well be a diaper bag.
Why would the graduate be wearing her cap and gown and be carrying a backpack at the same time anyway? I can't quite make sense of that one. In that situation, a purse would make more sense.

I may very well have pointed to a red herring.:truce:

I do personally believe there was some educational instruction for the kids beyond the 3rd grade public education of #1 and the college courses for #2. I still feel this picture supports that notion, if only because #1 is shown in cap & gown.

I also think #2 being ready to start school may have prompted them to take #1 out with the intent of homeschooling them all. This may have turned out to be a fateful decision for those kids. But I don't really think they pulled them all completely at that point with the intent of isolated torture.

Jmho, I respect yours!

 

[SkipperKey3]

I may very well have pointed to a red herring.:truce:

I do personally believe there was some educational instruction for the kids beyond the 3rd grade public education of #1 and the college courses for #2. I still feel this picture supports that notion, if only because #1 is shown in cap & gown.

I also think #2 being ready to start school may have prompted them to take #1 out with the intent of homeschooling them all. This may have turned out to be a fateful decision for those kids. But I don't really think they pulled them all completely at that point with the intent of isolated torture.

Jmho, I respect yours!

I agree. I think there was some homeschooling going on over the years. The desks in Texas seem to support this. I have a feeling it got very sloppy and haphazard as time went on, though. Give a kid a textbook and send him/her to their room for the day. If they say they read it, count that as passing the course...

I certainly don't see that LT, who didn't even finish 10th grade, IIRC, would be qualified to properly home-school high school kids, or at least to properly know if they had passed a course.

 

[Zelda1010]

I know this is a victim friendly forum. I hope I'm not overstepping...

We have 12 young people who were not just locked in a room and ignored/abused like the long ago case of Genie. Their torture was highly psychological in addition to the physical. Not that total isolation a la Genie isn't a mind f*ck. I just think these siblings were led to believe that if they would just be 'good' their parents wouldn't 'have' to punish them. They were trotted around and forced to put on a show. Now that all 13 have been freed, they can become physically more healthy relatively easily. Many will have lasting physical effects, but they are physically secure & slowly recovering their physiques.

Mentally, I fear the damage is far greater. Or at least more difficult to overcome. I just read that about a third of abused kids will go on to abuse their own kids (us dept of health & human services, 2013, from psychology today article previously linked). I've seen multiple mentions of how some abused kids will take out their internalized demons on other younger weaker kids. Whether we like it or not, the older ones especially were raised thinking this psychotic mess was normal. Because every young child thinks home is normal.

How did #2 gain favor? I shudder to think. How did he lose favor....I shudder to think again. I know they all did what they had to do to survive. I don't fault them. I pray they don't fault themselves when they couldn't be superhumans. Rewiring all of that messed up brain circuitry regarding love and security and sense of self will be a life long task I'm afraid. They are all strong and magnificent, but they are humans who grew up in hell.

I hope each one will have a loving, soft spot to land for the rest of their lives. They are all going to need it.

 

[JaneEyre]

Snipped and boldest by me - on the middle son...Perhaps the reason the oldest's vision was dealt with, while the middle son's was not, is because of the cause of his vision issues. If they knew a doctor may suspect that his issues were caused by a brain injury, then they would want to avoid being reported.

In every picture/video it is fairly obvious he [middle son] has some kind of sight problem, his eyes seem quite unfocussed and he lifts his head as if he has to do that in order to see...out the lower half of his eyes. I've done some rudimentary searching to see if there are any conditions where this may be the case and the only thing I've come across which could explain it is Superior Hermianopia which affects the upper vision of both eyes. Its generally caused by damage to the optic nerves either because of a stroke or a brain injury

Which then brings me on to the second point... we know that at least at some point the eldest son was seen and given glasses..so why wasnt this poor child when he is so obviously affected by his vision ..is it a case of not being bothered?

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[JaneEyre]

Great questions!

I wonder that same thing. Accolades to the oldest Turpin son for doing so well and having at least some small exposure to the outside world, even for that short of a time. I never thought about him wearing glasses! I will give some numbered ideas as theries to answer the questions. But these are questions that we would need David and Louise to answer to get the full picture:

1.) JT was about twenty six years old. He may have had some early life experiances before the family became "nuts." He was probably given rights because DT saw him as a "leader." Maybe JT was supposed to be the patriach of the family if DT and Louise were to die.

2.) Note that it is believed that son JT was home-schooled. Maybe because he was the best behaved and the least problematic, his "reward" was being able to attend college classes. I am sure that this took A TON of convincing and DT and LT made certain demands of JT. "You will succeed You will not disclose our family values to anybody at school. You will talk only when spoken to by your teachers.Your Mother will wait for you at school for all classes. You will come straight home after school."

3.) The classes that JT was taking were only basic skills kinds of classes, so they really would not help JT get ahead considering his age, the level of those classes mostly geared for Freshmen or Sophmore high school students at best.

4.) Maybe this class attending wasn't a choice, but a demand by the Turpins, that the eldest son had to take classes, because he was old enough to do that. However, this goes against everything that was the parental Turpin's life-style to avoid people as much as possible, keep to themselves, and chagrin against anybody who offered any kind of conversation to them. JT had an opportunity to open up at school. But maybe that is why LT was always there. To prevent him from disclosing any outside information that wasn't specific to assigned coursework. But again, why take that risk?

5.) The other kids were probably at home chained up and rotting in their filthy clothes and environment.

Satch

On your point 3 - IIRC, his classes were not geared towards freshman or high school at best. We discussed this earlier, and people pointed out that while a couple of lower level classes would have been required either as catch-up courses OR as proof that he was at the college level for future classes (the latter being something that is often required at college for those who have had non-traditional schooling), the rest were normal freshman college level courses.

Note: I went to a private university on partial academic scholarship, yet I had to take an algebra course like this as proof that I was at that level because of choices I had made in high school. So there goes the idea that courses like this are required for those who are only at a freshman high school level, since I was given a scholarship based on my academic ability.

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[Amonet]

I agree. I think there was some homeschooling going on over the years. The desks in Texas seem to support this. I have a feeling it got very sloppy and haphazard as time went on, though. Give a kid a textbook and send him/her to their room for the day. If they say they read it, count that as passing the course...

I certainly don't see that LT, who didn't even finish 10th grade, IIRC, would be qualified to properly home-school high school kids, or at least to properly know if they had passed a course.

But the eldest son doing college classes does suggest that he at least read and worked through text books on his own, even if he didn't have a lot of parental guidance or 'teaching' as he was working?

Eldest son's attitude seemed a bit different in the 2013 vow renewal video. It gives me a sense that he could do the public speaking classes quite well and maybe enjoy learning that skill.

He took guitar classes. Did he have a guitar at home and practice on it?

He took archaeology classes, did he read books on that subject at home?

I do wonder if they did see the eldest son as an 'inheritor' more of DT, but on the other hand that is a scary thought when some of the outside experts talk of structures between the siblings. I don't really want to say what I am trying to say, and I don't want it to be true, but it is a possibility if he was being 'groomed' for a junior DT role for the family.

Some of the things trickling down from the DA in the first week said that some of the younger siblings had much reduced reading ages and educational levels more consistent with 1st graders. Did the eldest few siblings have more of a sense of what education was and more of a drive to work alone in their rooms than some of the younger ones? Had the younger ones not had the same exposure to whatever homeschooling was done for the older ones in TX?

 

[Zelda1010]

<snip>

... Was the eldest son part of some bigger picture where he was given certain privileges?

We know he was given certain opportunities not afforded to the other children...college for one...why? Of course I'm happy he was allowed these moments of normality but again why? For what purpose? I know some WS have suggested he was beong prepared to become the next breadwinner but this doesn't ring true for me...firstly the classes he was taken weren't necessarily geared up for preparing him for employment...more along the line of hobbies and interests...but secondly...LT couldn't leave him alone at campus preferring to wait outside for him...if she can't leave hime alone for this short amount of time would she really risk him going out into the wide world for extended periods of time to undertake a job...and risk the potential repercussions???...i don't think so...so why?

And lastly. .i believe some (if not most) of the classes were night classes...we know that DT worked nights so where were the other kids?...at home, being lokked after by the older kids?...so LT couldn't leave the oldest son for a short amount of time but was happy to leave all the other children at home,alone knowing that at least on one other occasion children had tried to escape...what is the logic?

Sorry for the ramblings. Theres just so many questions...i doubt we will ever have the answers to them

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Great questions!


<snip>


2.) Note that it is believed that son JT was home-schooled. Maybe because he was the best behaved and the least problematic, his "reward" was being able to attend college classes. I am sure that this took A TON of convincing and DT and LT made certain demands of JT. "You will succeed You will not disclose our family values to anybody at school. You will talk only when spoken to by your teachers.Your Mother will wait for you at school for all classes. You will come straight home after school."

<snip>

4.) Maybe this class attending wasn't a choice, but a demand by the Turpins, that the eldest son had to take classes, because he was old enough to do that. However, this goes against everything that was the parental Turpin's life-style to avoid people as much as possible, keep to themselves, and chagrin against anybody who offered any kind of conversation to them. JT had an opportunity to open up at school. But maybe that is why LT was always there. To prevent him from disclosing any outside information that wasn't specific to assigned coursework. But again, why take that risk?

5.) The other kids were probably at home chained up and rotting in their filthy clothes and environment.

Satch

RSBM for space

As I was reading Satch's second point I felt socked in the gut by this thought. Maybe the eldest girl did the convincing. We think she wanted out in TX already. Maybe this was her safety plan for herself to pursue more education & freedom that they tortured her with by letting her watch her younger brother follow through. I don't mean to add horror where there is none, but the thought came with such force out of no where, I had to share.

Now it has me thinking....She might not even wanted OUT out like we are thinking in TX. Maybe she just wanted to grow up and move out like a normal person. If LT is as embroiled in BPD as I think, LT could react (pseudo?) psychotically about the perceived abandonment. But....I'm working with theory here more than fact. Conditions in that home were deplorable and I don't mean to minimize that.

 

[Amonet]

I know this is a victim friendly forum. I hope I'm not overstepping...

We have 12 young people who were not just locked in a room and ignored/abused like the long ago case of Genie. Their torture was highly psychological in addition to the physical. Not that total isolation a la Genie isn't a mind f*ck. I just think these siblings were led to believe that if they would just be 'good' their parents wouldn't 'have' to punish them. They were trotted around and forced to put on a show. Now that all 13 have been freed, they can become physically more healthy relatively easily. Many will have lasting physical effects, but they are physically secure & slowly recovering their physiques.

Mentally, I fear the damage is far greater. Or at least more difficult to overcome. I just read that about a third of abused kids will go on to abuse their own kids (us dept of health & human services, 2013, from psychology today article previously linked). I've seen multiple mentions of how some abused kids will take out their internalized demons on other younger weaker kids. Whether we like it or not, the older ones especially were raised thinking this psychotic mess was normal. Because every young child thinks home is normal.

How did #2 gain favor? I shudder to think. How did he lose favor....I shudder to think again. I know they all did what they had to do to survive. I don't fault them. I pray they don't fault themselves when they couldn't be superhumans. Rewiring all of that messed up brain circuitry regarding love and security and sense of self will be a life long task I'm afraid. They are all strong and magnificent, but they are humans who grew up in hell.

I hope each one will have a loving, soft spot to land for the rest of their lives. They are all going to need it.

That is one reason why I wish they could have all been placed in the same foster/adoptive home and watched healthy interactions with the baby from adults, and also the teen siblings relationships with adults in a healthy environment.

We heard a story from their time in TX that the younger babies/toddlers were just put into a playpen by themselves. We need to learn how to care for children from watching it, we need to learn about talking to babies and young children, how to play with them appropriately for their age and about their developmental levels and how a child's (I've lost the right word) ability to manipulate objects with their hands grows with age. Otherwise that can lead to unhealthy situations in the next generation when an adult doesn't play with the children, doesn't talk to the baby, doesn't understand that a child can't put on fingered gloves and walk at the same time when they're only five years old and then the child gets shouted at (these are examples I have seen in my life). Looking after a baby isn't just about feeding and changing diapers. If the only experience of parenting a child has had is being shouted at for unreasonable things (like the lack of coordination) and sent to their room, then how are they going to learn to do differently for the next generation? If you haven't seen good examples, even from watching peers interactions with their parents, then how can you break these generational cycles instead of unknowingly repeating them out of not knowing any different?

I don't know if there's any literature on the subject, but I have seen that a lot of foster kids in their teens seem to go straight into having babies. I question whether they've had the time in foster care to learn better ways of bringing up babies/toddlers/young kids, or are they going into having babies with the only knowledge being their own experience as a child?

Also, kids need to learn about healthy adult relationships between adults.

There was a picture from the Telemundo set that had the eldest girl and DT and LT in a one or a couple of snaps? In those pictures the eldest child was not interacting with the adults but the adults were in tight, loving poses as if the photo was about them and their love for each other. I don't like that. I know they're only single snapshots but I think the child should be sat on their laps or they should be sitting down on the floor playing with their child, there shouldn't be that separation between the two subject matters. DT/LT might have learned later to do these big family shots, but even then the interactions between the individuals is stifled and limited, and I don't think it's simply the difference between a posed shot and a natural shot.

 

[Satch]

I agree. I think there was some homeschooling going on over the years. The desks in Texas seem to support this. I have a feeling it got very sloppy and haphazard as time went on, though. Give a kid a textbook and send him/her to their room for the day. If they say they read it, count that as passing the course...

I certainly don't see that LT, who didn't even finish 10th grade, IIRC, would be qualified to properly home-school high school kids, or at least to properly know if they had passed a course.

I don't think LT was ever the sharpest tool in the drawer in the first place. Her education stopped at 10th grade, (16) So many life-skills and home skills never taught or explained to her. I don't think she's very intelligent either. Probably an IQ of about 70. It doesn't appear she learned any kind of Motherly skills, except maybe what was in the Bible when she was a little girl.

David was an engineer and he had more intellect. He selected Louise to marry IMO, because her limited life experiences made her easy to manipulate. Watch for the defense team to play the blame game on both parents for why the kids were the way they were should their be a trial. The defense will move away from the kids. Showing how threats and intimidation caused a mental breakdown and deficiencies where Louise became mentally incompetent. In contrast, the prosecution will center the trial around the kids. Showing the horror and abuse done by both parents as a form of torture and manipulation.

Their is circumstantial evidence from LE that says at least two of the Turpins were unshackled or as the cops came. However, to my knowledge, there is no direct evidence of this. If this was done, it is a strong piece of evidence for the prosecution, showing that they knew what they were doing was wrong and evil.

Satch

 

[rsd1200]

OT, this cracked me up! I was once in hospital and they couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. They asked if I had been to any 3rd world countries and I told them I had been to Miami visiting my family. They said that that counted and wrote it down!

O/T
Wow! I've visited a lot of Fla., mostly southern Fla, (Naples, and the Everglades), all my life, and I've not really felt that way (I do, however, miss the Fla from way back in the day). I have been through some sketchy places, and been attacked by skeeters as big as Tea Cup Poodles, though.

 

[Zelda1010]

I don't know if there's any literature on the subject, but I have seen that a lot of foster kids in their teens seem to go straight into having babies. I question whether they've had the time in foster care to learn better ways of bringing up babies/toddlers/young kids, or are they going into having babies with the only knowledge being their own experience as a child?

O/t I dont know if there is literature either, but there is so much truth to your words (all of them, even the ones I snipped for focus here). I've seen a program where young mother's from foster care are housed with older adults in an independent living, group home type of arrangement. Now I'll have to go see if it was a successful program or not. But the idea was everyone would become a community and mentor each other to help foster those lost skills.

ETA: .Yes! The pictures from 1990 or so, ikwym. They were a couple first and foremost, w/ kids as accessories. Gross.

 

[rsd1200]

But we have the best food anywhere in the world!

Which brings it back around to these poor babies. Anyone down here would sit them down and feed them if they saw the shape of them. Like when you visit grandma or great aunties house...eat, eat, eat!

Sigh

O/T It's the same around here. People will feed you! Even if you don't want to be fed. My mother worries about folks getting enough food and proper shelter. We were having a family picnic at the park for one of our crew's summertime birthday. We had fried chicken and all the fixins. This dude walks by, on his way to fish, and was just being cordial, and remarked at what a spread we had, and that was some good lookin' chicken. He was forced to take two wrapped up pieces... Just in case he got hungry while he fished.

 

[rsd1200]

O/t I dont know if there is literature either, but there is so much truth to your words (all of them, even the ones I snipped for focus here). I've seen a program where young mother's from foster care are housed with older adults in an independent living, group home type of arrangement. Now I'll have to go see if it was a successful program or not. But the idea was everyone would become a community and mentor each other to help foster those lost skills.

ETA: .Yes! The pictures from 1990 or so, ikwym. They were a couple first and foremost, w/ kids as accessories. Gross.

I know this isn't a reason to have a child, but, at the end of the day, most of those children in foster care, loved their parents. They see that baby as unconditionally loving them, and them loving that baby back. They just have no life, nor parenting, skills, to draw upon. The young lady who stayed with us for a bit, eventually lost custody of both of her children. She signed her rights away to the baby, saying she felt it was the the greatest act of love that she could do for the child. She still has contact with the eldest. The baby, who is in grade school now, she watches grow, on the adopted parents FB. They allow that. She never had a normal life of any kind. I was upset with her for signing away her rights, w/o a fight, I was upset with both of them, at first, but I've come to realize that she did do the most loving thing that she knew to do. Her life was just so unstable.

 

[enelram]

Snipped and boldest by me - on the middle son...Perhaps the reason the oldest's vision was dealt with, while the middle son's was not, is because of the cause of his vision issues. If they knew a doctor may suspect that his issues were caused by a brain injury, then they would want to avoid being reported.





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There's also some studies that have shown defective eyes in babies/children caused by the mother drinking alcohol or
doing certain drugs while pregnant. Inability to focus and crossed eyes were two symptoms mentioned due to alcohol
intake by mother. The studies caught my attention because I have a friend who had 3 children w/ these eye problems
at birth. Unless she was a closet drinker, I didn't know her to be a drinker.

 

[JulieNMM]

I worked at Lockheed for a long time and so did my husband and his dad and even my dad. They have Christmas parties but they are totally optional and many people don't go. It's mostly the social people who would go. They occasionally had events like a day at Disneyland or the local theme park, with discounted tickets, or big picnics, but again, only the social people go. My husband's work, for example, had an offsite meeting for a week in Anaheim with days planned at Disneyland. He is so anti-social that he took vacation time to stay home rather than have to hang out with his co-workers!! I have had a few very odd co-workers, too, who remind me of DT. Quiet and kept to themselves and didn't get involved in things. Engineers can be very different sometimes!

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Work is ridiculously busy for me at the moment and added to that my kids are super busy with their marching band so i have been struggling to keep up with the thread as of late but a couple of things i just wanted to bring up....

Its been bugging me since I've seen the unblurred pictures and the wedding video.. the middle sons stance. In every picture/video it is fairly obvious he has some kind of sight problem, his eyes seem quite unfocussed and he lifts his head as if he has to do that in order to see...out the lower half of his eyes. I've done some rudimentary searching to see if there are any conditions where this may be the case and the only thing I've come across which could explain it is Superior Hermianopia which affects the upper vision of both eyes. Its generally caused by damage to the optic nerves either because of a stroke or a brain injury...not saying this is the case and he has this condition but its certainly food for thought....

Which then brings me on to the second point...we know that at least at some point the eldest son was seen and given glasses..so why wasnt this poor child when he is so obviously affected by his vision..is it a case of not being bothered? Was the eldest son part of some bigger picture where he was given certain privileges?

We know he was given certain opportunities not afforded to the other children...college for one...why? Of course I'm happy he was allowed these moments of normality but again why? For what purpose? I know some WS have suggested he was beong prepared to become the next breadwinner but this doesn't ring true for me...firstly the classes he was taken weren't necessarily geared up for preparing him for employment...more along the line of hobbies and interests...but secondly...LT couldn't leave him alone at campus preferring to wait outside for him...if she can't leave hime alone for this short amount of time would she really risk him going out into the wide world for extended periods of time to undertake a job...and risk the potential repercussions???...i don't think so...so why?

And lastly. .i believe some (if not most) of the classes were night classes...we know that DT worked nights so where were the other kids?...at home, being lokked after by the older kids?...so LT couldn't leave the oldest son for a short amount of time but was happy to leave all the other children at home,alone knowing that at least on one other occasion children had tried to escape...what is the logic?

Sorry for the ramblings. Theres just so many questions...i doubt we will ever have the answers to them

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For your last question, it seems to me that because of the layout of the house, if all of the other kids were completely locked in rooms then they would have absolutely no idea if the parents had left the house or whether they were inside. Since it looks as though no vehicles were in the garage, the doors of the garage probably were not opened or closed to signal them leaving or coming home. There was an exit to the garage from the kitchen that then had a side door exit to the side. Also the big van parked between the window up front and the other windows would obscure the line of sight from the front window to the other vehicles in the driveway. Also, we have no idea what the parents told them concerning what would happen to them if they tried to escape or even if they looked out the window. There could have been motion sensor detectors, etc.

I'm not sure the answer to your other questions and I'm not sure that we will ever find out.

 

[JulieNMM]

I agree. My son goes to that same college, as does my niece, and they both have to take a required freshman (college freshman not HS freshman) English class and a math class. I think its the same ones JT took. These classes are considered general ed and definitely count towards a degree and are mandatory, in order to take higher level courses. General ed also means that you have to take a certain amount of electives in certain areas. So guitar might be one of those, and public speaking. (Just had a thought. Maybe he was taking public speaking so he could learn how to communicate "normally" so he could eventually get a job someday?).