CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

[trujac]

All IMO



The reason, imo, RT opined that BT was taken by vehicle was he knew the sheer impossibility that she would be able to, in that location, go far under her own locomotion.


It’s like taking a walk across an iron skillet over a gas flame set on high.


R did not report any signs of heat exhaustion or heat stroke in B when he saw her just minutes before.


IMO of sudden hiking deaths in CA they die in their boots right there on the trial [or collapse right on the trail].

PB was a Canadian hiking by himself.

BT was with a partner minutes earlier and headed to a known destination a short visible distance away.

BT’s lush green tree tells me she understands desert ecosystems.


All imo

Yes, I agree with all of your points...having lived in the desert not far from Barbara for over a decade, and driven from Arizona to California numerous times (stopping to explore here and there) anytime during the summer in desert areas of both States requires extreme caution...even breaking down in a vehicle on the highway can end up in a disaster. The notion that Barbara would have walked a distance in the desert lost for whatever reason seems unlikely to me too. She was experienced with the desert, and I think she knew her limits when hiking in it. For her husband to say to the press in his first televised interview that he thought it was possible that someone picked Barbara up and drove her to Henderson NV, because they used to live there--seems very plausible to me...my impression of BT and RT that day is they weren't getting along very well, and BT had had enough, and took off with someone in a vehicle.

 

[rosesfromangels]

IMO, I don't believe the official search effort for BT would have continued for at least 9-10 days if they did not believe she was in that area, on foot. Many see this as foul play, I just don't on this one.

The truth is none of us know the health of BT on that day or leading up to that day.

I believe she got turned around when they became separated and think it's possible during that time of (perhaps) extra exerted (stress/panic) energy, she could have absolutely had a medical emergency due to the heat. Maybe he assumed or she said she was heading straight back to the RV but instead detoured. Who knows.

I don't really believe RT when he said they were only separated for minutes before he started again on the trail after taking pics. I believe it was much longer (and he downplayed it) and they possibly could have fought or been impatient with each other before she headed off alone. Again, I don't think he harmed her.

Sadly, I believe the search will stay suspended for her unless new information comes forward. The family is on their own now with searches. I also believe the two sides of the families are split (hers vs. his) and it's probably a sad state of affairs behind the scenes.

JMO.

I am in 100% agreement with this post.
Barb's earthly remains will be found eventually, and likely by use of drones, similar to Paul Miller's case.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Jade]

IMO, I don't believe the official search effort for BT would have continued for at least 9-10 days if they did not believe she was in that area, on foot. Many see this as foul play, I just don't on this one.

The truth is none of us know the health of BT on that day or leading up to that day.

I believe she got turned around when they became separated and think it's possible during that time of (perhaps) extra exerted (stress/panic) energy, she could have absolutely had a medical emergency due to the heat. Maybe he assumed or she said she was heading straight back to the RV but instead detoured. Who knows.

I don't really believe RT when he said they were only separated for minutes before he started again on the trail after taking pics. I believe it was much longer (and he downplayed it) and they possibly could have fought or been impatient with each other before she headed off alone. Again, I don't think he harmed her.

Sadly, I believe the search will stay suspended for her unless new information comes forward. The family is on their own now with searches. I also believe the two sides of the families are split (hers vs. his) and it's probably a sad state of affairs behind the scenes.

JMO.

As you say his story is not believable.

Of course they looked intensively in the area. Her husband reported along the trail as her last known location.


imo

 

[10ofRods]

Yes, I agree with all of your points...having lived in the desert not far from Barbara for over a decade, and driven from Arizona to California numerous times (stopping to explore here and there) anytime during the summer in desert areas of both States requires extreme caution...even breaking down in a vehicle on the highway can end up in a disaster. The notion that Barbara would have walked a distance in the desert lost for whatever reason seems unlikely to me too. She was experienced with the desert, and I think she knew her limits when hiking in it. For her husband to say to the press in his first televised interview that he thought it was possible that someone picked Barbara up and drove her to Henderson NV, because they used to live there--seems very plausible to me...my impression of BT and RT that day is they weren't getting along very well, and BT had had enough, and took off with someone in a vehicle.

When and where did RT ever say "Henderson, NV" or mention in public that they used to live there?

Heat stroke can be insidious and many an experienced deserteer has had it come on, undetected. Not saying that happened, just saying it does happen.

 

[Jade]

Imo only:


The scenario of a wandering heat stroke is unlikely as it does not fit with the narrative and scene as presented by RT.

He conveyed that they were only out for a short time and BT was only minutes apart on the flat wide trail back to the camper which was visible for BT to walk towards.

RT believes she made it to the road where she was taken a notion presumably come to after he searched all logical distance and location. And indeed intensive searching still did not find BT.

If Barb had a sudden onset of severe symptoms of heat stroke she would be unable to physically proceed for any distance in those conditions [cactus, heat, sun] no matter how disoriented, imo.

There were no symptoms reported or speculation [that we know of] by RT that it was a heat related incident.

Symptoms of Heat Stroke
The hallmark symptom of heat stroke is a core body temperature above 104 degrees Fahrenheit.

But fainting may be the first sign.

Other symptoms may include:

• Throbbing headache
• Dizziness and light-headedness
• Lack of sweating despite the heat
• Red, hot, and dry skin
• Muscle weakness or cramps
• Nausea and vomiting
• Rapid heartbeat, which may be either strong or weak
• Rapid, shallow breathing
• Behavioral changes such as confusion, disorientation, or staggering
• Seizures
• Unconsciousness
  
  Heat Stroke: Symptoms and Treatment

Maybe a serious long distance hiker may press through heat exhaustion to heat stroke but an older person on a casual walk a short distance from her air conditioned camper?

An upsetting number of casual walkers die on a relatively short but inclined CA hiking trail I’m familiar with in the summer. Even teenagers and dogs but they all drop in their tracks.

We have no evidence or indication that she was anything but healthy and showing no distress as relayed by RT and reported in msm.



all imo

 

[K9Enzo]

As you say his story is not believable.

Of course they looked intensively in the area. Her husband reported along the trail as her last known location.


imo

IMO - some members don't think BT ever left the RV and went on a hike/walk with RT that day like he claimed. My comment was in response to that. I do believe she was there (and LE believes it as well) like they planned and don't believe SAR was following ghost trails for 9-10 days. I still believe she's out there, maybe in the search area even. I envision her remains being stumbled upon one day by some some poor unsuspecting person in the location she sat down in for the last time.

I do believe he downplayed the actual estimated time him and BT were separated before he started off on the trail again back to the RV. I can see him being embarrassed to talk about a fight they had or if he blew her off and did his own thing. Absolutely.

IMO, being a jerk does not mean you are a murderer.

 

[Stripehaven]

It sure is hard to understand why there never seemed to be any signs of RT looking for BT, making public pleas, hounding the media to keep her in the public eye, etc.

And it’s hard to imagine BT wandering out among the cholla.

 

[K9Enzo]

IMO, that dude does not need to be out there wandering around. The rest, not sure what any of the family is doing right now to locate BT.

 

[trujac]

When and where did RT ever say "Henderson, NV" or mention in public that they used to live there?

Heat stroke can be insidious and many an experienced deserteer has had it come on, undetected. Not saying that happened, just saying it does happen.

I can't find it now where RT said they used to live in Henderson, NV--and he thought Barbara might have gone there...in this interview, RT says he thinks someone picked her up and drove her to the Las Vegas area. My interpretation of RT's comments is he didn't think BT walked away from the area--for any reason--and she was picked up quickly once reaching the roadside--which is what I think happened.
69-year-old woman missing after hiking in California's Mojave Desert with her husband

 

[10ofRods]

IIRC, the reporter said that RT said "She might be in Vegas." We never hear him say it.

As to people dying rather suddenly of heat, even if they are experienced, I'll just leave this here:

Park officials: Grand Canyon death apparently heat related

As a Grand Canyon hiker myself, I've actually seen it. A fit man who was trail running thought he'd "cool down" at Indian Gardens (it was about 95-100 degrees, not even that hot, but he had been running from the bottom) and was talking to the ranger and some other people when he just flopped over. He didn't die, but he came close.

I've experienced it myself and had no clue I was already rising in core temperature (heat exhaustion can cause euphoria - it's actually an underlying reason why people die in the desert; it's beautiful, it's hot, you feel GREAT, and you don't realize that you're about to pass out).

If I hadn't been in the company of someone who knew me well and knew I was acting strangely (and touched my forehead), who knows if I would have noticed.

It was about 105 on the day Barbara went missing (at 2-4 pm, which is the alleged time she was out there, which our VI said LE confirmed to him). If it is true that she was wearing so little, and not carrying water, she might have been both dehydrated and hot.

Sure, she was experienced but as we get older, our bodies can react very differently to what we expect.

 

[Knox]

I can't find it now where RT said they used to live in Henderson, NV--and he thought Barbara might have gone there...in this interview, RT says he thinks someone picked her up and drove her to the Las Vegas area. My interpretation of RT's comments is he didn't think BT walked away from the area--for any reason--and she was picked up quickly once reaching the roadside--which is what I think happened.
Here's the mention of Henderson.
69-year-old woman missing after hiking in California's Mojave Desert with her husband

 

[Knox]

Professor uses news coverage of missing Mojave Desert woman as case study in class
Professor uses news coverage of missing Mojave Desert woman as case study in class

Watch the video at link-

 

[dulcinea]

IIRC, the reporter said that RT said "She might be in Vegas." We never hear him say it.

As to people dying rather suddenly of heat, even if they are experienced, I'll just leave this here:

Park officials: Grand Canyon death apparently heat related

As a Grand Canyon hiker myself, I've actually seen it. A fit man who was trail running thought he'd "cool down" at Indian Gardens (it was about 95-100 degrees, not even that hot, but he had been running from the bottom) and was talking to the ranger and some other people when he just flopped over. He didn't die, but he came close.

I've experienced it myself and had no clue I was already rising in core temperature (heat exhaustion can cause euphoria - it's actually an underlying reason why people die in the desert; it's beautiful, it's hot, you feel GREAT, and you don't realize that you're about to pass out).

If I hadn't been in the company of someone who knew me well and knew I was acting strangely (and touched my forehead), who knows if I would have noticed.

It was about 105 on the day Barbara went missing (at 2-4 pm, which is the alleged time she was out there, which our VI said LE confirmed to him). If it is true that she was wearing so little, and not carrying water, she might have been both dehydrated and hot.

Sure, she was experienced but as we get older, our bodies can react very differently to what we expect.

I live close enough to JTNP and Mojave that I have hiked there countless times. Our last trip out there is usually April because it starts to heat up too much after that. I really don't understand the people who go out there after that. It's brutal heat. While we lack the humidity, the sun is so direct that even 70 degrees feels hot. I run every day but I will not go out later than 6:30 AM because it just gets too darn hot. Several times in the past couple of months I've become dehydrated and light headed just running my own neighborhood before 7 AM! Desert heat is nothing to mess with.

 

[trujac]

I live close enough to JTNP and Mojave that I have hiked there countless times. Our last trip out there is usually April because it starts to heat up too much after that. I really don't understand the people who go out there after that. It's brutal heat. While we lack the humidity, the sun is so direct that even 70 degrees feels hot. I run every day but I will not go out later than 6:30 AM because it just gets too darn hot. Several times in the past couple of months I've become dehydrated and light headed just running my own neighborhood before 7 AM! Desert heat is nothing to mess with.

I might add just doing simple chores outside, watering, raking, weeding, and tending to animals in the summer is brutal in Arizona--most people are outside by 5am during the summer completing their projects for the day so they can run back indoors by 10am. Hiking during the month of July anytime after 10am in the AZ/CA deserts--even for a short walk to take pictures--would be physically demanding...But having a beautiful 5th wheel close by with ice cold air at a push of a button would probably make day walkers/hikers confident to step out in blistering heat knowing that instant relief was close by.

 

[trujac]

IIRC, the reporter said that RT said "She might be in Vegas." We never hear him say it.

As to people dying rather suddenly of heat, even if they are experienced, I'll just leave this here:

Park officials: Grand Canyon death apparently heat related

As a Grand Canyon hiker myself, I've actually seen it. A fit man who was trail running thought he'd "cool down" at Indian Gardens (it was about 95-100 degrees, not even that hot, but he had been running from the bottom) and was talking to the ranger and some other people when he just flopped over. He didn't die, but he came close.

I've experienced it myself and had no clue I was already rising in core temperature (heat exhaustion can cause euphoria - it's actually an underlying reason why people die in the desert; it's beautiful, it's hot, you feel GREAT, and you don't realize that you're about to pass out).

If I hadn't been in the company of someone who knew me well and knew I was acting strangely (and touched my forehead), who knows if I would have noticed.

It was about 105 on the day Barbara went missing (at 2-4 pm, which is the alleged time she was out there, which our VI said LE confirmed to him). If it is true that she was wearing so little, and not carrying water, she might have been both dehydrated and hot.

Sure, she was experienced but as we get older, our bodies can react very differently to what we expect.

yes, not to be unkind, but if Barbara did experience heat exhaustion and then a heat stroke--she would have collapsed pretty quickly--I don't see her at 74 years old in 105 degree desert heat at midday wondering around by foot looking for her fifth wheel or aimlessly walking in the wrong direction for any distance whatsoever...if she hid herself in some rocks for immediate shelter before succumbing to the elements, she would have been found within a mile or less of where her recreational vehicle was parked, IMO.

 

[trujac]

It sure is hard to understand why there never seemed to be any signs of RT looking for BT, making public pleas, hounding the media to keep her in the public eye, etc.

And it’s hard to imagine BT wandering out among the cholla.

The only reason why I think a spouse and family members wouldn't search for their missing love one is feeling helpless in the mist of grieving--a paralysis of pain...which leads to feelings of hopelessness about the situation. I have never been in that situation but would think it is overwhelming on many levels.

 

[10ofRods]

Well, the search didn't explore the area east of Kelbacker road all that much. West Valley posted pictures on Twitter of their search at the time (I believe they are on the media thread).

At any rate, think how hard they searched for Paul in Joshua Tree - and it was a year. The couple that went missing at Amboy? (12 miles or so from where Barbara went missing?) - one was found right away, IIRC, the other only a year or two later - via drone.

And Amboy has way less scrub brush than the area east of Kelbaker.

Yes, she would have collapsed quickly, that's usually what happens with any kind of stroke. If she was confused for even 5 minutes, she could have gotten a few hundred yards in any eastern direction from the dirt lot. Now, I realize that's a strange possibility, but I also think that many a body has been found after many years...in the desert, with no other explanation than "They took off to a potty break and never returned."

The hike was planned by RT, IMO. They supposedly left a key under a rock. She was in a hurry to get back to the A/C and the restroom. He had all the water. She was already irritated/distressed/hot. He took longer than 5 minutes with whatever he was doing (and LE got access to his camera).

She was mad at not finding the key (if he even put it there). Crossing the highway again put her back at the cholla garden, whereas walking east on the dirt road would lead a few places where within 10-20 yards she could have privacy. But how far did she actually walk? People get adrenalized in situations like this. From the other side of the road, the trailer is visible, but there are dips in the land eastward (and also just north of where RT says he last saw her). So...

All I can say is that either SBCSO has dropped the ball major league big time on this case, or they have a phone/camera that corroborates RT's story and they can't find holes in it.

But where is Barbara? Did someone pick her up? Did something else happen? Or is this just a story that fits the very few known facts?

 

[trujac]

Well, the search didn't explore the area east of Kelbacker road all that much. West Valley posted pictures on Twitter of their search at the time (I believe they are on the media thread).

At any rate, think how hard they searched for Paul in Joshua Tree - and it was a year. The couple that went missing at Amboy? (12 miles or so from where Barbara went missing?) - one was found right away, IIRC, the other only a year or two later - via drone.

And Amboy has way less scrub brush than the area east of Kelbaker.

Yes, she would have collapsed quickly, that's usually what happens with any kind of stroke. If she was confused for even 5 minutes, she could have gotten a few hundred yards in any eastern direction from the dirt lot. Now, I realize that's a strange possibility, but I also think that many a body has been found after many years...in the desert, with no other explanation than "They took off to a potty break and never returned."

The hike was planned by RT, IMO. They supposedly left a key under a rock. She was in a hurry to get back to the A/C and the restroom. He had all the water. She was already irritated/distressed/hot. He took longer than 5 minutes with whatever he was doing (and LE got access to his camera).

She was mad at not finding the key (if he even put it there). Crossing the highway again put her back at the cholla garden, whereas walking east on the dirt road would lead a few places where within 10-20 yards she could have privacy. But how far did she actually walk? People get adrenalized in situations like this. From the other side of the road, the trailer is visible, but there are dips in the land eastward (and also just north of where RT says he last saw her). So...

All I can say is that either SBCSO has dropped the ball major league big time on this case, or they have a phone/camera that corroborates RT's story and they can't find holes in it.

But where is Barbara? Did someone pick her up? Did something else happen? Or is this just a story that fits the very few known facts?

Following your comments...if Barbara was upset at not finding the RV key upon returning to their 5th wheel and decided to start walking down the road, I think it is very reasonable that someone would have stopped to offer her lift. The big question in my mind, if BT couldn't find the RV key, why didn't she immediately retrace her steps back to where her husband was taking pictures? IMO, most people in BT's situation, not finding a hidden key to their vehicle, would have waited for a while (in extreme heat the wait period would have been no longer than 10 minutes), after which they would quickly walk back to where they left their spouse.

 

[MimosaMornings]

The only reason why I think a spouse and family members wouldn't search for their missing love one is feeling helpless in the mist of grieving--a paralysis of pain...which leads to feelings of hopelessness about the situation. I have never been in that situation but would think it is overwhelming on many levels.

Would you go to the spot where it was reported she was last seen?
I think I would have to go at least one time for my peace of mind.
JMO

 

[trujac]

Would you go to the spot where it was reported she was last seen?
I think I would have to go at least one time for my peace of mind.
JMO

yes, I would--after all the police and media attention died down, I would go back to the area and search. And, if I thought like RT that someone picked her up and drove her out of the area--my concentration would be trying to see how I could get information on vehicles that were in the area at the time she went missing...searching gas and grub places, towns close by, trying to reach out to people who drove down the road that day, etc. It would be like searching for a needle in a hay stack--but where there's a will, there's a way...