CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #6

[rosesfromangels]

Jumping off your post to keep it victim-friendly, I would love to re-introduce another theory mentioned early on that I have been mulling over...

Quicksand

The caveat with this theory is that searchers would very likely be aware if there was quicksand near where she was last seen.

If she got turned around (disoriented due to heat exhaustion or dehydration) and went a different way, then she may have been outside the search area and in an area where the searchers may not have been aware of the presence of quicksand.

I am just trying to put f0rth all ideas I can think of before drawing any conclusions that someone was involved in making her disappear.

I wish we knew if someone is out there searching for her.

JMO and speculation

I thought you had watched one too many Saturday tv matinee until I just researched this; it’s legit!
However, I don’t know about quicksand near Kelbaker and Hidden Hills. Anyone?

 

[firstsleuth]

People see what they want to see in the text but you have to look at it from both perspectives. There is really nothing there.

This is a charitable reading of the sister's text: The quotes from the text are underlined and a charitable interpretation is in ( ... )

i don’t have the sharpest memory (that means some of this might not be completely accurate)


it was a long story that started at the beginning on friday morning and progressed chronologically throughout the day. (He started at the beginning and walked her through their whole day, lots of facts the police can corroborate)


he went back to check a shaded cave that they had found together earlier thinking she may have been taking a break from the heat but she wasn’t there (he spent some time looking for her, he probably has no idea exactly how long he spent looking)


around noon time it was getting terribly hot so he started getting worried and called 911. (not exactly at noon to the nearest second but around noon +/-)


robbie said throughout the day they had sniff dogs, horses, hundreds of people and even a helicopter (which unfortunately couldn’t use its infrared function because it was too hot out to get any useful readings) and nobody could find any trace of her. searched throughout the night too. (The Sheriff took him seriously right away and mounted a big response; all those resources and they still didn’t find any evidence, what could have happened)


“it doesn’t make any sense” that she just wandered off and got lost and there’s no evidence.. which is why he suspects she may have been picked up in a car. (He thinks she must have been picked up because there is no evidence of her anywhere, since there is no evidence of her where else could she be but somewhere else. It’s pretty logical)

apparently she took a 360 picture that morning from on top of a hill and the photo included a parking lot with some vehicles in it so the police are looking into their license plates/info. (she took a picture that day and you can see vehicle plate #s and perhaps Robbie too; there is probably evidence we don't know about that she was there)

the call was delivered in a measured tone but he broke down a bit at this point, was tough to hear

(he did get upset when he called them and she thought it was genuine and sympathized with him)

he said he keeps returning to the spot where he lost her and overturning rocks and searching and searching hoping to find something. he was there the day he called us although i think he said he shouldn’t really go back there as protocol says he’s the first suspect. he was even held for 5hrs in a cop car on the first day. it’s been nonstop and nobody is sleeping. robbie said he had held off on calling daddy to tell him the bad news because it was such devastating news and he was hoping she would turn up.. but he couldn’t wait any longer. (He tried to search on his own but the police asked him to stop and let them do their job. He delayed calling because he just couldn’t believe she wouldn’t be found and didn’t want to worry people, I mean what a story it would be for her to tell on her trip)

@Curiousobserver Good observations and interpretations. I agree with every word you wrote; but I continue to have trouble reconciling the “around noon” 911 report with the actual 911 call at 3:26pm. On the other hand, I can’t imagine having to call my sister or brother in law under these circumstances. I believe RT May have been worried about what her family would think of him for not protecting her; so, perhaps he unwittingly tried to paint a better picture

 

[Curiousobserver]

@Curiousobserver Good observations and interpretations. I agree with every word you wrote; but I continue to have trouble reconciling the “around noon” 911 report with the actual 911 call at 3:26pm. On the other hand, I can’t imagine having to call my sister or brother in law under these circumstances. I believe RT May have been worried about what her family would think of him for not protecting her; so, perhaps he unwittingly tried to paint a better picture

I don't know what to think either- Was there a crime, or did she get lost? I am always shocked at how easy people get lost, especially children, and how hard it seems to be to find them (most are found only a couple miles from where they start). Even in the desert people get lost and aren't found for years if at all. On the other hand the SO story should always be checked out with a fine-toothed comb.

I am just trying to point out that the available evidence is a big nothing-burger in terms of helping us figure out if it was a crime or not.

 

[LClapper]

I don't know if this is something that has been explored or not... but I know that on Friday and Saturdays and most days through the week, Live PD is on my tv. Every episode (new episodes on Friday & Saturdays), they highlight a crime or missing person and so far they have had a decent success rate.
The show is on A&E, if there was interest in reaching out to see if they would feature Barbara's story...
They are on twitter at @OfficialLivePD, also Facebook, and contact through A&E at Contact Us | A+E Networks®

 

[?mysterian?]

Good question. I cannot find the arrival time of LE and SAR.
Hopefully someone else could answer this.

LE could answer it, since personnel contact dispatch to let them know when they arrive at a scene/incident, IMO.

 

[al66pine]

When Did RT Say picked up in car or abducted --- to BT's fam? to LE? to MSM?

I'm trying to see if RT's stmts re BT being picked up in car or abducted 'evolved'
so making a mini-timeline on what he said, to whom, and when. We've covered this piecemeal multiple times, but I'd like to see it in timeline format w actual quotes & links. I'm pulling my hair out trying to find this. Can someone fill in blanks for day/date, quotes, & links for LE or MSM? Thx in adv.
_____________________________________________
Thur July 18 RT said to fam.
Quote: “....she had just disappeared. robbie admits “it doesn’t make any sense” that she just wandered off and got lost and there’s no evidence.. which is why he suspects she may have been picked up in a car...also because from the spot where she went missing she had to cross a highway in order to get back to where their rv was parked. txt msg from my sister....Jul 18, 2019”. bbm
Link: Post 286 by @firstsleuth, quoting from post by @dbdb11.

______ date RT said to LE.
Quote " __
Link: ____

______date RT said to MSM.
Quote "__
Link: ____

 

[10ofRods]

My two Victim friendly theories remain the same.
1. She was hit by a vehicle. They panicked and took and dumped her elsewhere
2. She’s close to the area she disappeared yet to be found.

More on 2. Any of our SAR experts can expand on the difficulty finding someone outdoors. It’s really, really hard.

These are my two prevailing theories until/*if* we get additional info from LE. If forced to choose one theory, it would be 2.

Amateur speculation and opinion

Those are mine, too, although I have also added Mountain Lion. The reason I added Mountain Lion is that there is an uptick in the Mountain Lion population. I had pooh-poohed the idea initially, due to water issues, but did some research and found that there is a source of water south of where the Thomases stopped. Mountain lions have a walking pace of 10 mph and attack at speeds of up to 60 mph. The rabbit population in the desert is up, due to all that extra foliage, and there were plenty of rabbits in that area, IMO.

It would be odd, though, for a lion to drag prey miles before stashing it. SAR searched such nearby stash places (and I think the sniffer dogs were there). However, if lion was feeding offspring at a distance, could have gone outside search area.

Still really improbable, but within the realm of possibility. Mountain lion fatalities in California occur every 10 years or so, but they do occur. Also, many older people have been victims, nation-wide, and a variable is the size of the victim. I think Barb looks as if she weighed around 120 lbs, not 130 as stated on her DL. I base this on the one fairly recent family photo. At any rate, 130 pounds is within a mountain lion's capacity to take. Lions often hide in sandstone outcroppings, similar to the one shown being searched in the twitter photos.

Since the more extensive search of the sandstone didn't take place until at least the next day, Lion would have cover of darkness to sneak off. HOWEVER, if they had a cadaver dog out there (surely they would have?) So...both "lost in the desert" and "mountain lion" are not such great theories.

But, a mountain lion would have put Barbara further out of the search radius than if she were on her own power, IMO. If LE/SAR suspected this, they knew that the total area to be searched was beyond the technical capacities of humans at that time of year...or any time of year, most likely.

So those are my RT-friendly theories.

The only way we'll know, if Barb was lost, discarded by a hit and run driver on some remote road, or taken by a mountain lion is when some future desert lover/ATV rider comes across skeletal evidence.

The lack of car debris near the place where Barb crossed is troubling, for the hit-n-run theory.

The "lost in the desert" is, statistically, most probable. I believe RT headed down to the creek bed (in an early report, reporter says "husband walked to a lake to take pictures" (there's obviously no lake - but there is a lake bed-like thing 14 miles north and then, there's the creek bed, which does look a bit like a dry lake and has very different rocks than the rest of the area - more like Mono Lake, which people drive a hundred miles or more out of their way to see...)

So, it's not like RT was just randomly photographing rocks. He never mentions a tripod and he does mention a gallon of water in his pack. Most rock photographers don't use a tripod for a simple shot of rock formations, as rocks don't move. The length of time he says he was there indicates it was probably his hand held camera (presumably, it could have been his phone).

Granite Mountains in the distance - with much less foliage than during the time the Thomases visited:

Granite Mountains (California) - Wikipedia

I'll try and post pictures of the white rock formations later.

The mention of the "dry lake" led many to believe they were at the Kelso Dunes area, but the 911 call says Kelbaker/HH and that's where the search took place.

 

[canteloupe]

@al66pine thank you for following this line of thought along with me.

@cantaloupe Thanks for your post. snipped for focus
Interesting articles at your links.

Do you think if, big IF, RT was bring an action for ct to declare BT dead and to pursue probate of her estate that he would have a choice of state in which to bring it?
Or was your thought more to point out differences in in absentia probate processes from one state to another? Thx in adv.

From my general understanding, there exists the possibility of choice of state for probate where the missing person holds immovable real property (land, physical structures, subsoil rights, etc.). California law makes it explicit that a missing person does not need to hold residence in the state to be declared dead in absentia; the true test here is if the person is a real property holder in California.

A question for a practicing probate attorney would be: if someone is declared dead in a state like Nevada, where the time threshold is lower, will other courts in other states recognize that declaration as valid, thereby skirting the five-year test?

This fast-tracking may be important for non-real property, e.g. insurance polices.

For example (hypothetical here), I am a resident of California, where my life insurance is registered, who owns a home in Arizona and another home in Nevada. Let's say I go missing and my partner/immediate family have met at least one of the three universal pre-conditions (1. informed LE of my disappearance, 2. utilized local media to request information on my whereabouts, or 3. contracted the services of a licensed private investigator to find me) for declaring me dead in absentia. Could they then file their petition in Nevada after three years and, upon success here, take this declaration to California courts to avoid waiting another two years?

Again, these legal hypotheticals are just that: imagined scenarios to help us better understand the complicated jurisdictional overlaps that seem to occur in the tri-state areas. That I'd even imagine that I could one day own real property in California is the biggest fiction of all....

 

[Cherwell]

3rd Bolded : I call BS on the difficulty in calling Barbara's family in China.
Based on someone's actions.
And why does he want for Barbara's family to only call HIM (RT) for questions ?
Maybe they'd rather speak to someone else ?

That's not the sense I got from it. I read that he had been having trouble getting through, so it would be better if they called him, rather than him calling them.

 

[firstsleuth]

I am just trying to point out that the available evidence is a big nothing-burger in terms of helping us figure out if it was a crime or not.

Respectfully snipped by me; YES; the “big nothing-burger” ...no evidence to sink our teeth into, although we all would like to help so much

Priscilla Delzell went missing on July 18, 2013. Search warrants issued August 21, 2013.

Authorities search home of missing Barstow woman

So, maybe we are getting a little closer in time to some SBCSO actions for MSM to report?

 

[PommyMommy]

Thank you, FirstSleuth. That was posted on July 18, right?

Do we know when that conversation between RT and DB's sister took place?

The cop car part I had forgotten.

BBM

July 16. The conversation was between RT and dbdb11's father (Barbara's brother). dbdb11's sister was present and the conversation was on speakerphone. MOO

My family was informed of her disappearance on July 16th. In informing my family Rob mentioned he had cancelled the flights. His family members later repeated that her flights had been cancelled when I tried to reach Robbie by phone.

In the first conversation he had with my family Robbie also said they should cancel the hotel reservations because "she's not gonna make it." endquote.


The source for last sighting is a neighbour's surveillance cam. I'm still waiting to see this footage, but I am trusting the source.

 

[?mysterian?]

Those are mine, too, although I have also added Mountain Lion. The reason I added Mountain Lion is that there is an uptick in the Mountain Lion population. I had pooh-poohed the idea initially, due to water issues, but did some research and found that there is a source of water south of where the Thomases stopped. Mountain lions have a walking pace of 10 mph and attack at speeds of up to 60 mph. The rabbit population in the desert is up, due to all that extra foliage, and there were plenty of rabbits in that area, IMO.

It would be odd, though, for a lion to drag prey miles before stashing it. SAR searched such nearby stash places (and I think the sniffer dogs were there). However, if lion was feeding offspring at a distance, could have gone outside search area.

Still really improbable, but within the realm of possibility. Mountain lion fatalities in California occur every 10 years or so, but they do occur. Also, many older people have been victims, nation-wide, and a variable is the size of the victim. I think Barb looks as if she weighed around 120 lbs, not 130 as stated on her DL. I base this on the one fairly recent family photo. At any rate, 130 pounds is within a mountain lion's capacity to take. Lions often hide in sandstone outcroppings, similar to the one shown being searched in the twitter photos.

Since the more extensive search of the sandstone didn't take place until at least the next day, Lion would have cover of darkness to sneak off. HOWEVER, if they had a cadaver dog out there (surely they would have?) So...both "lost in the desert" and "mountain lion" are not such great theories.

But, a mountain lion would have put Barbara further out of the search radius than if she were on her own power, IMO. If LE/SAR suspected this, they knew that the total area to be searched was beyond the technical capacities of humans at that time of year...or any time of year, most likely.

So those are my RT-friendly theories.

The only way we'll know, if Barb was lost, discarded by a hit and run driver on some remote road, or taken by a mountain lion is when some future desert lover/ATV rider comes across skeletal evidence.

The lack of car debris near the place where Barb crossed is troubling, for the hit-n-run theory.

The "lost in the desert" is, statistically, most probable. I believe RT headed down to the creek bed (in an early report, reporter says "husband walked to a lake to take pictures" (there's obviously no lake - but there is a lake bed-like thing 14 miles north and then, there's the creek bed, which does look a bit like a dry lake and has very different rocks than the rest of the area - more like Mono Lake, which people drive a hundred miles or more out of their way to see...)

So, it's not like RT was just randomly photographing rocks. He never mentions a tripod and he does mention a gallon of water in his pack. Most rock photographers don't use a tripod for a simple shot of rock formations, as rocks don't move. The length of time he says he was there indicates it was probably his hand held camera (presumably, it could have been his phone).

Granite Mountains in the distance - with much less foliage than during the time the Thomases visited:

Granite Mountains (California) - Wikipedia

I'll try and post pictures of the white rock formations later.

The mention of the "dry lake" led many to believe they were at the Kelso Dunes area, but the 911 call says Kelbaker/HH and that's where the search took place.

IF the mtn.lion took her, did he/she take the beer/container along or drink the beer, then take the container for a souvenir?

 

[PommyMommy]

When Did RT Say picked up in car or abducted --- to BT's fam? to LE? to MSM?

I'm trying to see if RT's stmts re BT being picked up in car or abducted 'evolved'
so making a mini-timeline on what he said, to whom, and when. We've covered this piecemeal multiple times, but I'd like to see it in timeline format w actual quotes & links. I'm pulling my hair out trying to find this. Can someone fill in blanks for day/date, quotes, & links for LE or MSM? Thx in adv.
_____________________________________________
Thur July 18 RT said to fam.
Quote: “....she had just disappeared. robbie admits “it doesn’t make any sense” that she just wandered off and got lost and there’s no evidence.. which is why he suspects she may have been picked up in a car...also because from the spot where she went missing she had to cross a highway in order to get back to where their rv was parked. txt msg from my sister....Jul 18, 2019”. bbm
Link: Post 286 by @firstsleuth, quoting from post by @dbdb11.

______ date RT said to LE.
Quote " __
Link: ____

______date RT said to MSM.
Quote "__
Link: ____

July 15 - RT was interviewed by KTNV Channel 13 Las Vegas
July 16 - RT spoke with Barbara's brother in Hong Kong
July 17 - RT was interviewed by Inside Edition

My family was informed of her disappearance on July 16th. In informing my family Rob mentioned he had cancelled the flights. His family members later repeated that her flights had been cancelled when I tried to reach Robbie by phone.

In the first conversation he had with my family Robbie also said they should cancel the hotel reservations because "she's not gonna make it." endquote.

The source for last sighting is a neighbour's surveillance cam. I'm still waiting to see this footage, but I am trusting the source.

RT's interviews:

AZ - AZ - Barbara Thomas, 69, Timeline, Media, Maps, *NO DISCUSSION*

 

[al66pine]

5 Hours in LE Cruiser?

....Why did LE keep him for 5 hours in a police cruiser if they think he's just a man who lost sight of his wife ?
What did LE ask him ?....

@LietKynes Thanks for your post. snipping for focus^
From LE perspective - Is RT mentally, physically, emotionally stable? Is he possibly involved in causing BT to disappear? LE does not know.
- If LE lets him sit in own truck,
------what if RT suffers heat stroke/heat exhaustion/heart attack other med event? Then RT cannot answer new questions, clarify further info, etc. And LE & med ppl have to deal w his med issues, take to hosp. So instead keep him in LE vehicle w a/c.
------If LE lets him sit in own truck, what if RT gets gun or other weapon out, and threatens, actually tries to use, or well, who knows what? {{{ETA: Also RT could possibly destroy potential evidence, if there is a crime.}}}
------If LE lets him sit in own RV, w or w'out a/c running, same as above re poss med events or weapon. {{{ETA: Also RT could possibly destroy potential evidence, as above.}}}
----If LE lets him sit outside, same as ^ re poss med issues.
--- If LE allows him to wander outside, seems poss/likely he would want to talk w and question LE & SAR, meaning essentially, deter/distract them from doing their jobs.

IMO, initially LE got some info from him, then started their protocol and did not interrogate him for 5 hours in the cruiser.
{{{ETA: jmo}}}

 

[Sillybilly]

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[LietKynes]

5 Hours in LE Cruiser?

From LE perspective - Is RT mentally, physically, emotionally stable? Is he possibly involved in causing BT disappear? LE does not know.
- If LE lets him sit in own truck,
------what if RT suffers heat stroke/heat exhaustion/heart attack other med event? Then RT cannot answer new questions, clarify further info, etc. And LE & med ppl have to deal w his med issues, take to hosp. So instead keep him in LE vehicle w a/c.
------If LE lets him sit in own truck, what if RT gets gun or other weapon out, and threatens, actually tries to use, or well, who knows what? {{{ETA: Also RT could possibly destroy potential evidence, if there is a crime.}}}
------If LE lets him sit in own RV, w or w'out a/c running, same as above re poss med events or weapon. {{{ETA: Also RT could possibly destroy potential evidence, as above.}}}
----If LE lets him sit outside, same as ^ re poss med issues.
--- If LE allows him to wander outside, seems poss/likely he would want to talk w and question LE & SAR, meaning essentially, deter/distract them from doing their jobs.

IMO, initially LE got some info from him, then started their protocol and did not interrogate him for 5 hours in the cruiser.

Blue bolding mine

Yes, good perspective, @al66pine !

The VI's post quoting RT were "... he was even held for 5 hours in a cop car..."
My post reflected that LE were keeping him (RT) in a police cruiser for 5 hours.
Doubtful anyone thinks RT was interrogated.

At this time I do not believe LE think he is a suspect or even a poi as they haven't made a statement to that effect.

Although being named a poi in this case would only mean that LE want to know everything about that day.
In LE's words-- there has been no evidence of any crime.

If LE have examined RT's phone and the vehicles' gps--- they must know where RT and BT traveled if anywhere else than the area she went missing from.
But it seems like LE are as puzzled as the rest of us.
Which is disheartening.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

So it's two years old?

The date and time (tagged as ICC_Profile date and time) shown in the EXIF metadata of that image file is NOT the date and time when the photograph was taken... it indicates when the ICC profile used was initially created. All we may conclude from that data is the photograph was taken no earlier than that (ICC profile, assuming the profile was saved with the camera and not overridden by post-editing software) date/time and could have been taken any date/time after that.

ETA: note that if the ICC_Profile date time tag was added/modified with post-processing software it is possible the profile could have been created after the photograph was taken... this would set the ICC_Profile date time after the image was taken. Also note that in that vane, an ICC_Profile could have been created much earlier than when a photograph was taken.

IOW, the ICC_Profile date time should not be used as a reference as to when a photograph was taken.

 

[rosesfromangels]

"Take a walk" around Kelbaker/Hidden Hills via this Instant street view link and you'll get a sense of the enormous task of trying to find Barb. : (

Kelbaker Rd, California, United States | Instant Street View

 

[MassGuy]

The hit-and-run with Barb’s body, doesn’t work for me.

First, that would be highly unusual.

Secondly, that typically leaves telltale signs (car parts, tire marks, blood, and belongings).

Besides that, someone could have spotted it.

The mountain lion thing doesn’t work, because it is also incredibly rare.

One would expect to find evidence of such an event anyways.

Her being lost is slightly more likely IMO, but the issue there is I would have expected some sign of her to turn up.

The search area was well defined, and scoured by search teams for days.

So I’m not a fan of any of those options, nor am I fan of the kidnapping theory, which has plenty of issues too.

 

[CaseyLPC]

I am not sure that I can buy the conspiracy theory stuff and I don't think some random predator rolled through the desert and found a hidden gem. I tend to lean toward the more simple options, she really did get lost in the desert somehow and lost a battle with the elements, or she was harmed by someone who was known to her.