CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #7

[LAhiker]

I've had this in the back of my head but didn't want to say it - going to put it out there in case anyone else is thinking the same.

Was it not initially stated "BT will be found wearing X"? (since the specific clothing titles are up in the air)

If so, that seemingly could infer that it's known that she will be (or should have been) found wearing X.

Wandered down that thought train during some of the underwear discussion. I'm sure I'm walking a fine line on the rules with this post, feel free to nuke it if needed.

Edit for clarification: The statement seems to be made in a definitive tone, when it should have been made in a presumptive tone. You don't know what she will be found in as she has yet to be found. Maybe I'm thinking too far.

I think it's a reasonable thing to wonder about, but would want to double-check whether he actually said those words. I don't remember it, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
JMO

 

[CSIDreamer]

It seems to me like by July 16 RT had accepted the hard truth that Barbara is most likely gone, since he cancelled her flight to Hong Kong. I wonder if LE had suggested by then it was past hope?

 

[Kittybunny]

So I've been following a lot of cases lately where people are lost in various terrains. One thing I've noted is that there is a tendency for people, including/especially the loved ones/companion, to very quickly jump to abduction, regardless of the circumstances, terrain, etc... Which is very interesting but perhaps understandable given that I do think it's hard for the ordinary human brain to comprehend how someone could be there one minute and not the next, and not be found within a reasonable search time. While many of us at Websleuths have the experience of understanding all the different ways people can and are very frequently not found despite best efforts, alive or dead, for many reasons, including underestimating the capabilities/range of the individual (toddlers move fast!), overestimating the abilities of dogs, overestimating the ability of the human eye to recognize a body, not understanding the terrain, etc., a panicked ordinary person who doesn't spend hours here will not be aware of these things. Cases that come to mind include Sheryl Powell, Lizzy (little girl in UT), and Nora in Malaysia. So I've learned to give them benefit of the doubt when this comes up and not assume they are trying to re-direct the investigation to cover their own tracks.

ALL THAT SAID, I really don't strongly believe that BT is out there in desert and was missed because of this specific terrain, these circumstances as described by RT. If he sat in the truck or fiddling with the Fifth Wheel while Barb went out for a planned 2-hour hike and never returned that would be a different story and I would be more likely to believe she was lost.

And as far as abduction goes...so what would people say was the average speed of travel on Kelbaker Rd.? Let's assume a very conservative 60 miles an hour. Let's say nefarious abductor is driving by, looking for a victim, and spots Barbara about to cross the road in her fetching bikini. First, he catches enough of a glimpse to realize she's a great target. Then his brain starts processing what he's seen and decides that he's gonna grab this lil' lady and take 'er straight to Vegas for a good time. So he slams on the brakes at which point being very generous only 1-2 minutes have passed while this all happens and he pulls a U-turn 1 to 1.5 miles down the road from Barbara and heads back, at which point she has most likely crossed the road and headed to the RV on her merry way. OR, I guess, he stops and grabs her if there is a big line of traffic, no one being the wiser? It all just doesn't add up to me. Seems completely implausible! And as far as it being planned?! Even MORE implausible. They were what, tailing them during their hike in the wide open desert? Getaway car at the ready? Yeah, no.

So I'm left with...she really did get lost - highly unlikely to me but certainly more likely than abduction; OR something else happened. I'm going with the something else.

 

[LAhiker]

It seems to me like by July 16 RT had accepted the hard truth that Barbara is most likely gone, since he cancelled her flight to Hong Kong. I wonder if LE had suggested by then it was past hope?

On July 16th, SAR was only four days into what would end up being a nine-day search. I can't imagine that LE would say such a thing at that time. I don't think LE would say such a thing even now (even if they suspect it) unless they find evidence that BT is deceased. For one thing, sometimes people who have gone missing depart voluntarily, though that seems very unlikely to me in this case.

As for RT, he himself said he thought she was abducted, which doesn't necessarily mean murdered. JMO

 

[HongKongPhooey]

It seems to me like by July 16 RT had accepted the hard truth that Barbara is most likely gone, since he cancelled her flight to Hong Kong. I wonder if LE had suggested by then it was past hope?

Would you have flight costs refunded in the US? Just curious. It would be rare in the UK, unless you were insured I think.

 

[MassGuy]

So I've been following a lot of cases lately where people are lost in various terrains. One thing I've noted is that there is a tendency for people, including/especially the loved ones/companion, to very quickly jump to abduction, regardless of the circumstances, terrain, etc... Which is very interesting but perhaps understandable given that I do think it's hard for the ordinary human brain to comprehend how someone could be there one minute and not the next, and not be found within a reasonable search time. While many of us at Websleuths have the experience of understanding all the different ways people can and are very frequently not found despite best efforts, alive or dead, for many reasons, including underestimating the capabilities/range of the individual (toddlers move fast!), overestimating the abilities of dogs, overestimating the ability of the human eye to recognize a body, not understanding the terrain, etc., a panicked ordinary person who doesn't spend hours here will not be aware of these things. Cases that come to mind include Sheryl Powell, Lizzy (little girl in UT), and Nora in Malaysia. So I've learned to give them benefit of the doubt when this comes up and not assume they are trying to re-direct the investigation to cover their own tracks.

ALL THAT SAID, I really don't strongly believe that BT is out there in desert and was missed because of this specific terrain, these circumstances as described by RT. If he sat in the truck or fiddling with the Fifth Wheel while Barb went out for a planned 2-hour hike and never returned that would be a different story and I would be more likely to believe she was lost.

And as far as abduction goes...so what would people say was the average speed of travel on Kelbaker Rd.? Let's assume a very conservative 60 miles an hour. Let's say nefarious abductor is driving by, looking for a victim, and spots Barbara about to cross the road in her fetching bikini. First, he catches enough of a glimpse to realize she's a great target. Then his brain starts processing what he's seen and decides that he's gonna grab this lil' lady and take 'er straight to Vegas for a good time. So he slams on the brakes at which point being very generous only 1-2 minutes have passed while this all happens and he pulls a U-turn 1 to 1.5 miles down the road from Barbara and heads back, at which point she has most likely crossed the road and headed to the RV on her merry way. OR, I guess, he stops and grabs her if there is a big line of traffic, no one being the wiser? It all just doesn't add up to me. Seems completely implausible! And as far as it being planned?! Even MORE implausible. They were what, tailing them during their hike in the wide open desert? Getaway car at the ready? Yeah, no.

So I'm left with...she really did get lost - highly unlikely to me but certainly more likely than abduction; OR something else happened. I'm going with the something else.

Yup, that’s where I am too.

We’ve seen searchers and search dogs miss missing people and dead bodies.

That happens all the time.

The circumstances are very different in those cases, and simply aren’t present here.

No woods with dense foliage. No ridiculously large search area.

Not to mention the implausibility of her getting lost in the first place.

Abduction is even less likely than that. We just don’t see it happen like this, and even if it did, there are no signs of it occurring here.

So those two options are distant second to a third option, one that I see as being very likely here.

Foul play.

 

[MassGuy]

Would you have flight costs refunded in the US? Just curious. It would be rare in the UK, unless you were insured I think.

It depends how it was booked, but that is an option for many booking sites.

It costs a bit more, but is worth it when you are talking about an expensive trip.

My guess is that the money was refunded.

 

[slowpoke]

Snipped, and bolded by me:

As @artsy1 and others have said, it may be that the 360 that RT said BT took was far from the Kelbaker/Hidden Hill location, and that RT meant to imply that someone followed them. I also think he said to @dbdb11's family that the 360 was taken in the morning, which might imply it was taken somewhere else. I don't know. JMO

Our poster sroad said he confirmed with either LE or a SAR person (forgot which) that the Kelbaker-Hidden Hill turnout was where RT was parked. But, I agree that it could be possible the 360 photo could have been shot from another spot that morning, as we know they hit the road sometime after 8 in the morning from their home, and they should have been able to get to the Preserve within a couple of hours.

But RT did tell dbdb11’s family he was suspicious of the car owners as “potential suspects”, dbdb11 has told us, so I feel the 360 photo spot must have still been within the Preserve and in the general vicinity for RT to say that. JMO

 

[CSIDreamer]

Would you have flight costs refunded in the US? Just curious. It would be rare in the UK, unless you were insured I think.

I have no idea what airline she was using. It looks like there are exceptions, that with proper documentation , could get you a refund with United. I chose United at random.

Refund Form | United Airlines https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/customer/refund

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Thanks @MassGuy and @CSIDreamer

Interesting to know

 

[firstsleuth]

While it could've been that parking lot, according to Google Earth, the Sweeney Granite Mountains Desert Research Center parking lot is at approximately 4288' of elevation. The intersection of Kelbaker/Hidden Hill where the RV was is at approximately 3841 feet of elevation. The rock formation that @sroad figures was RT & BT's goal is 3922' of elevation at its highest point. In addition, an arm of higher rocky mountains (I'm guessing these are the Granite Mountains ) extends between that rocky outcropping and the Sweeney Granite Mountains Desert Research Center. If you draw a line between the rock formation and the Sweeney Granite Mountains Desert Research Center parking lot (a distance of around 2 1/4 miles), it goes across mountains that are approximately 4500' high.

All of this is to say that if they were looking at the parking lot of the Sweeney Granite Mountains Desert Research Center, they were not standing on the rock formation. RT did say they were standing on a hill, but it's not clear to me where they would have been standing. I doubt they climbed a mountain in that heat. So my guess is that the 360 contained images of some other parking lot.

If I figure out how to do so, I'll post a Google Earth image or images.

As @artsy1 and others have said, it may be that the 360 that RT said BT took was far from the Kelbaker/Hidden Hill location, and that RT meant to imply that someone followed them. I also think he said to @dbdb11's family that the 360 was taken in the morning, which might imply it was taken somewhere else. I don't know. JMO

@LAhiker Very informative for visualization of the area. Great sleuthing!

 

[Cherwell]

It seems to me like by July 16 RT had accepted the hard truth that Barbara is most likely gone, since he cancelled her flight to Hong Kong. I wonder if LE had suggested by then it was past hope?

No, I think he was just being realistic. Whatever had happened to her - lost, abducted - even if she returned she wasn't going to be in a fit state to make that trip.

 

[CSIDreamer]

No, I think he was just being realistic. Whatever had happened to her - lost, abducted - even if she returned she wasn't going to be in a fit state to make that trip.

Even with a departure date of July 22? I think that's what it was. To visit her ill brother.

 

[Cherwell]

Even with a departure date of July 22? I think that's what it was. To visit her ill brother.

That's less than a week. Yes, I think someone who had been through an ordeal would need longer than that to recover mentally and physically before such a long-distance trip. Travel can be very stressful and tiring.

 

[Tillicum]

No, I think he was just being realistic. Whatever had happened to her - lost, abducted - even if she returned she wasn't going to be in a fit state to make that trip.

I agree that would be realistic for RT or anyone else in a similar situation. Unfortunately that IMO doesn't rule out any other motivation for cancelling.

 

[Tillicum]

I've tried to be open minded but this is the slickest fence I've ever tried to sit on.

 

[PommyMommy]

I have no idea what airline she was using. It looks like there are exceptions, that with proper documentation , could get you a refund with United. I chose United at random.

Refund Form | United Airlines https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/customer/refund

American Airlines #504, Las Vegas to LAX, dep 7/22
Cathay Pacific #883, LAX to Hong Kong, arr 7/23

 

[proctorelites]

Would you have flight costs refunded in the US? Just curious. It would be rare in the UK, unless you were insured I think.

I dont know that I would even be thinking abt her flight unless it was mentioned/stressed to me that the flight was coming up soon or I thought maybe she did walk away & could hop on tht flight without an explanation as to "where the heck have you been?" Or money was of particular concern right then. I imagine LE may have urged him to cancel it? Bit. How does one go about canceling another passenger's ticket?

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I dont know that I would even be thinking abt her flight unless it was mentioned/stressed to me that the flight was coming up soon or I thought maybe she did walk away & could hop on tht flight without an explanation as to "where the heck have you been?" Or money was of particular concern right then. I imagine LE may have urged him to cancel it? Bit. How does one go about canceling another passenger's ticket?

Yes, that too!

 

[rosesfromangels]

I dont know that I would even be thinking abt her flight unless it was mentioned/stressed to me that the flight was coming up soon or I thought maybe she did walk away & could hop on tht flight without an explanation as to "where the heck have you been?" Or money was of particular concern right then. I imagine LE may have urged him to cancel it? Bit. How does one go about canceling another passenger's ticket?

Oh I don’t know. It could be he is a “check the box” kinda guy, or frugal on such matters, or both. I would have done the same.

Amateur opinion and speculation