CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #10

[zwiebel]

Something else to consider. LE also stated early on they were going to be cautious with information provided because they didn't want to alert any possible suspects. Keep that in mind with answers provided by or allegedly provided by LE that are not found in what WS considers credible sources such as MSM or court documents.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-214111--.html

Yes. Thank you.

 

[zwiebel]

Just wanted to add that I spent half a day carefully studying the links Shana kindly provided, posted what I thought at the time were groundbreaking theories, and lost them four times. Waited for Mr Zweibel computer-brain to get home and help, but we had 'issues' about the nature of the problem and he's run off with the dog now to watch football on TV. I have had to post this one twice now too, but just to say I think the tax/ financial planning for the future implications could be quite important!

 

[GrainneDhu]

If I ever go missing, I want you to be in charge of the search.

My brother, who is a genius (but a jerk, I'm still mad at him), says that the only thing he has that distinguishes him from all the other geniuses at Harvard is that he hooks onto a problem and keeps drilling and drilling until he figures it out. He says he cannot stop. He doesn't know how to back off or when to call it quits.

He's way more intelligent than I am but maybe I inherited some of that "can't let it go" gene with him.

Now if only my civilisation project on him would move faster (he's better but not good enough to stop me being mad at him).

 

[zwiebel]

So, a Generation Skipping Tax (GST) seems to me to be one of those taxes introduced to close a loophole where money left to grandchildren in a trust, that passes through the children first, could escape estate taxes. Looks like regulations in place in 2009 have now changed, so some arrangements Mr Harrod made then for the benefit of those inheriting the trust then, might not be so obvious now.
Mr Harrod's family trust could be one of those where, if you want to 'follow the money', it's important to look at both where the money goes when Mr Harrod dies, and where it goes after his children die.
Also, I was thinking that at some point in each year, it may have been beneficial (depending on his own dues) for Mr Harrod to make cash gifts (to reduce his tax bill).
All this is JMO. I am most definitely not a tax expert. Just feeling my way in the dark here.

 

[zwiebel]

BBM My brother, who is a genius (but a jerk, I'm still mad at him), says that the only thing he has that distinguishes him from all the other geniuses at Harvard is that he hooks onto a problem and keeps drilling and drilling until he figures it out. He says he cannot stop. He doesn't know how to back off or when to call it quits.

He's way more intelligent than I am but maybe I inherited some of that "can't let it go" gene with him.

Now if only my civilisation project on him would move faster (he's better but not good enough to stop me being mad at him).

If the civilisation project pays off, I need to know exactly how you did it!

 

[shana]

bbm

So, a Generation Skipping Tax (GST) seems to me to be one of those taxes introduced to close a loophole where money left to grandchildren in a trust, that passes through the children first, could escape estate taxes. Looks like regulations in place in 2009 have now changed, so some arrangements Mr Harrod made then for the benefit of those inheriting the trust then, might not be so obvious now.
Mr Harrod's family trust could be one of those where, if you want to 'follow the money', it's important to look at both where the money goes when Mr Harrod dies, and where it goes after his children die.
Also, I was thinking that at some point in each year, it may have been beneficial (depending on his own dues) for Mr Harrod to make cash gifts (to reduce his tax bill).
All this is JMO. I am most definitely not a tax expert. Just feeling my way in the dark here.

Yes, every year a person can give tax-free to children or to anyone else a monetary gift within limits. These limits can change year-to-year. As part of some Estate plans, such gifting may be advised and is done for years, with the objective of reducing the overall Estate.

In this case, both of the Harrod parents (when living) could have elected to gift each of their children, grandson, SIL, and great-grands annually. The limit for 2012 remains as it has for the past year at $13k. You can lookup what the limits were for years 2009 and prior (I'm guessing $11k). Assuming such, a married couple could therefore have given $22k to each recipient without tax consequence and by so doing reduce the Estate.

There is as well a Lifetime Gift Tax Allowance, and this also changes in time with new/revised law.

I don't think any of us knows what Estate plans Robert and Georgia Harrod entered into with the advice of their attorney. Theirs was not a large Estate but I feel quite confident that it was properly planned.

I am still not clear on why there is so much interest in their plans since they were originated before Mr. Harrod went missing and haven't been broken since, nor could they easily be, particularly if the Trust was irrevocable.

Following the money in Mr. Harrod's disappearance is an avenue worthy of pursuit; and in that regard, I would be looking to those who were not already named beneficiaries should he not be present. It would not serve well those to whom he may have gifted to make him go missing, just as after his first wife's death, the annual gift allowance would have been reduced by half without her.

Estate and Gift Taxes

~jmo~

 

[shana]

bbm

BBM-finding him would be the best option, sure. I have no doubts that the PPD is well informed regarding the civil/probate case. For anyone investigating a possible money motive here, there is a whole lot of crossover.

Any way you slice it, no matter who your favorite candidate it, money seems to be at the heart of Bob's disappearance. At least that is the one area everyone seems to agree on.

Money being the motive, at least IMO, makes it even more confusing as to why BL or Mrs Harrod would be candidates at all.

Quick answer: Because neither was provided for in the estate planning of Robert and Georgia Harrod (Harrod Family Trust).

~jmo~

 

[shana]

bbm

Thanks Shana, I was aware but my point wasn't clear. The settlement was with the estate, yes? But AH was vague on amounts, dates, repayments and loan status. So I wondered, if there was a profit, if the IRS would be okay with that or AH had to come up with precise info when he made his declaration. Liabilities and allowances might have meant a loss was made of course, so then nothing would be payable. Though more details would have been needed to prove a loss as well as a profit, I'd imagine.

The settlement terms are not a public record, but I do not believe any 'loss' to the Estate would be considered a 'profit' to AH for tax purposes. Rather, the Estate *may* have had to account for monies not received in satisfaction, if any at all, as a loss.

Best to ask a California CPA versed in such matters for answers.

What's that got to do with the...?

~jmo~

 

[shana]

Much has been made of Mr Harrod's allegedly having paid his daughters to stay-away from him. iirc, the amount suggested was $15k.

First, I do not believe that there is any verifiable source for this allegation.

Secondly, I do not believe that he would have exceeded the annual gift tax allowance.

Just some things to consider...fwiw.

~jmo~

 

[shana]

bbm

Could you give us an example of the loose quoting of the posts, shana? I feel pretty confident that there are screen prints in the hands of our sleuthers for fact checking purposes.

I was wondering if you can link your source for the interview. TIA!!

Anyone searching the net with the simplest of params can easily find it.

~jmo~

 

[shana]

bold & underline by me

Something else to consider. LE also stated early on they were going to be cautious with information provided because they didn't want to alert any possible suspects. Keep that in mind with answers provided by or allegedly provided by LE that are not found in what WS considers credible sources such as MSM or court documents.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-214111--.html

Exactly! Thanks for the reminder.

As for court documents, again I'd prefer viewing those directly from the courthouse including answers from the other side. Only in this way can I/we see the full picture.

~jmo~

 

[zwiebel]

bbm

BBM

Yes, every year a person can give tax-free to children or to anyone else a monetary gift within limits. These limits can change year-to-year. As part of some Estate plans, such gifting may be advised and is done for years, with the objective of reducing the overall Estate.

In this case, both of the Harrod parents (when living) could have elected to gift each of their children, grandson, SIL, and great-grands annually. The limit for 2012 remains as it has for the past year at $13k. You can lookup what the limits were for years 2009 and prior (I'm guessing $11k). Assuming such, a married couple could therefore have given $22k to each recipient without tax consequence and by so doing reduce the Estate.

There is as well a Lifetime Gift Tax Allowance, and this also changes in time with new/revised law.

I don't think any of us knows what Estate plans Robert and Georgia Harrod entered into with the advice of their attorney. Theirs was not a large Estate but I feel quite confident that it was properly planned.

I am still not clear on why there is so much interest in their plans since they were originated before Mr. Harrod went missing and haven't been broken since, nor could they easily be, particularly if the Trust was irrevocable.

Following the money in Mr. Harrod's disappearance is an avenue worthy of pursuit; and in that regard, I would be looking to those who were not already named beneficiaries should he not be present. It would not serve well those to whom he may have gifted to make him go missing, just as after his first wife's death, the annual gift allowance would have been reduced by half without her.

Estate and Gift Taxes

~jmo~

Totally agree Shana that their plans would have been very precise and accurate, especially with a trust being involved. So please correct me if I'm wrong as I just don't have the details in my head like other posters, but weren't there issues after the disappearance about gifts/loans and unclear/missing records?
If so, this is what I just don't understand because the only thing all parties involved seem to agree on was Mr Harrod was very sharp when it came to finances?
Also, do we know why Mr Harrod appointed only 2 daughters executors? Was it his decision or hers not to play a role?
Sorry for all the questions. My revenge for you posting me those tax links!

 

[zwiebel]

Thinking about your comment about Mr Harrod being unlikely to exceed the gift allowance, I think it may not be correct. I am going to have to go back through the threads to check though as there's an awful lot in this case to remember!

 

[imamaze]

bbm



Anyone searching the net with the simplest of params can easily find it.

~jmo~

Shana, if someone requests a link to what you are saying, it is required to do so. Its also just nice to do it for the person asking and everyone reading here that's not familiar with what you are saying. It helps.

Ima

 

[believe09]

Theirs was not a large Estate but I feel quite confident that it was properly planned.

From your post, shana. Really? Multiple houses, apparently a significant amount in financial accounts, quite a memorabilia list provided by family...looks pretty large from where I am standing.

I suspect it was worth fighting over-that is rapidly apparent from the letter RB wrote her father's attorney. It was the subject of the heated family meeting the day before his disappearance.

I still dont see the logic of Mrs Harrod being a suspect in the disappearance of her husband when she had yet to be added to the estate. PPD indicated that the one of the subjects of the meeting the night before was regarding adding her to his estate planning...that Bob intended to add her.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

As for BL, even the most cynical materialist would be hard pressed to understand why she would disappear a millionaire who was giving her gifts. It is immaterial-she and her family were cleared. According to a linkable MSM source that is.

 

[Allusonz]

Shana, if someone requests a link to what you are saying, it is required to do so. Its also just nice to do it for the person asking and everyone reading here that's not familiar with what you are saying. It helps.

Ima

As per Salem's post we are no longer allowed to link to this.

If a link comes up with asteriks, it means it is an unapproved link here at WS. When you have an unapproved link - it also means that the information from the unapproved site is not allowed here.

Thanks for understanding.


Salem

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #6

 

[zwiebel]

I've just resurfaced, temporarily, from the earliest threads and I have to ask does anyone else think cloudajo is amazing? Right there from the beginning, not only spotting discrepancies in the timelines but sorting and setting them out in a such a clear and concise way. I am full of admiration.
Also, thanks believe09 for the SAR link earlier which I would never have found on my own. That area is close to my heart and and the work done there I find wonderful and very moving.
Back to the beginning now!

 

[Allusonz]

From your post, shana. Really? Multiple houses, apparently a significant amount in financial accounts, quite a memorabilia list provided by family...looks pretty large from where I am standing.

I suspect it was worth fighting over-that is rapidly apparent from the letter RB wrote her father's attorney. It was the subject of the heated family meeting the day before his disappearance.

I still dont see the logic of Mrs Harrod being a suspect in the disappearance of her husband when she had yet to be added to the estate. PPD indicated that the one of the subjects of the meeting the night before was regarding adding her to his estate planning...that Bob intended to add her.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

As for BL, even the most cynical materialist would be hard pressed to understand why she would disappear a millionaire who was giving her gifts. It is immaterial-she and her family were cleared. According to a linkable MSM source that is.

Has Fontelle been cleared directly by LE?


We can't simply pick and choose which portions of the article we want simply for the reason that it supports one view over another.

In one of the articles often cited, even though this has not been directly quoted by LE:

"There are no suspects, Loomis said. There's not even any evidence of a crime."

" But Jeff Michaels' story checks out, and neither he nor any of the daughters are suspects in the disappearance, Loomis said"

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-214111--.html

 

[Allusonz]

Every individual should be looked at with respect to this case simply for the fact that GH had passed away in 2008, and it appears that the daughters were beneficiaries of at least her portion. This tells me that they would probably already be due something with respect to 50% of the trust. Others outside of the trust must be looked at as well as I wonder how many knew there was a trust involved and which is now being contested by Fontelle who married Bob Harrod after 6 days in his company. That alone brings into play additional individuals.

Once again it is very apparent that many do not understand complex trusts. For those that continue to state this is a By Pass trust, I am going to state that I do not believe this was the sole purpose of this.

Trusts are set up for a variety of objectives. A trust is used by both individuals and businesses for estate/inheritance, capital gains/income tax to name a few but there are multiple other reasons.

Most are familiar with ones set up for minor children in the event of a parents death such as the Michael Jackson trust. They are also set up for the fact they are not public thus are confidential. Other reasons include tax purposes, provisions for multiple beneficiaries, to speed up the probate process, continuity of family businesses, et al. The confidentiality of a trust is the reason AH's lawyer required the other side to keep the contents confidential. It was not to "hide" things. Unfortunately, Fontelle's legal advisor did not seem to understand a fundamental purpose of a trust.

In order for a Trust to be valid all assets that are transferred to a trust are the property of the "Trust". This means that they are the property of the trust not an individual/s. This is important to understand.

It is also important to understand that there is a fiduciary responsibility of the Trustee that statements must be provided on a regular basis to the beneficiaries. It was this report the daughters were asking for not the will the day the meeting took place. Whether people wish to be particular over the word will/trust as per what the daughter wrote is moot. The terms are interchanged often as trusts are often not understood. The daughters probably already knew how this trust was set up in advance, just as I have done with my children. They are fully aware of what it states and the mechanics involved with respect to my business/personal interests.

There is unique wording to each trust. I will use mine as one example. There is a stipulation with respect to an employee which is unique. There are as well specific stipulations with respect to my business interests as well as personal. Anyone that attempts to contest my trust will receive nothing, and must pay their own legal fees. End of story.

The Harrod Trust was in effect at least by 1999 as we know that the Harrod Trust was involved at that time with respect to funding involving the GS. That is 10 years prior to Bob Harrod's disappearance. This tells me that this trust was active and used for a variety of purposes, and was not simply a "By Pass" trust. Bob Harrod entered into transactions involving his GS and I am going to guess one reason is that he was receiving a greater amount of interest than if it sat dormant in an interest bearing account. It was as well done while GH was alive and was their decision to make as it was their money not anyone else's. Quite frankly, I don't understand why transactions done with the full knowledge of both his grandparents is being questioned through a discovery process all the way back to 1999. This trust was effective prior to the illness/death of Georgia Harrod, thus it was not effective upon the death of an individual as it was being used prior to GH illness. This leads me to believe that it was "irrevocable". It as well leads me to believe that the marital home was part of this trust as it appears that the trust is responsible for the property.

Now I look at who has benefitted that knew about the trust.

The grandson did while Bob Harrod was alive but so did the Harrod Trust simply for the fact that the trust received the interest monthly not the bank. He as well paid a settlement amount back to the trust being the unpaid payments after Bob Harrod disappeared.

We do not know for sure whether the conservators are charging the account and/or if they are the amount.

The lawyers on both sides are winning.

Now for those that benefitted after GH died that may not of known a trust was involved.

Fontelle has, as she lives in a home already paid for or paid for by the Harrod Trust, receives her pension and I am going to take a guess that she is receiving one other. As well, she is receiving $3,850/mo from the Harrod Trust.

We know the barber lady did. What we don't know is the dollar figure. I keep seeing everyone state that she was "cleared" and had an alibi. I find it odder that this was stated so soon after. I am sure they all said they had an alibi but did it check out? There are not many missing person cases where I see that stated so quick and I have to question whether LE had a reason specific to her and her family. We know she was reported by more than one family with respect to elder abuse, and the other gentleman went ahead with that charge.

 

[believe09]

What makes you think the daughters were beneficiaries of her portion? I believe Bob was the beneficiary. Perhaps they were beneficiaries once he had passed away.