CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #12

[cloudajo]

Grrrr

Calling all Placentia locals! Did anyone see a removal/ storage truck in Carnation drive on a date in 2010 that I have yet to determine because I can't find it?

But the date doesn't really matter. You remember it. Winter 2010. Nearly a year and a half since Bob went missing, his wife still living in the house and suddenly his daughters are there, stripping the house and discarding the stuff they didn't want like trash, on the lawn. Really strange. You wondered what in the world was going on. They were going to leave their Dad's wife without sheets? Teacups?

And the vehicle they loaded their spoils into? Too much for a single vehicle. So it had to be several vehicles. Or a truck. Probably hired from a local storage business, with a name printed in big, bold letters on the side. Maybe a familiar one to you?

Now, make Oriah really happy. Shut your eyes and just remember that name.

From these previous posts, it sounds like the clean out occurred in January 2011.

Teamer posted on Jan 22, 2011:

Moving Van ID
I was thinking, three moving vans, three daughters, a designated van for each person.

Before we go any further with this thought, better clear up how many moving vans. According to my kids there was just one king sized North American Van Line truck in front of the house. Movers came out with load after load of furniture and boxes well into the evening. There were also several non-neighbor cars parked near the house.

Teamer posted on Jan 25, 2011:

Last Friday there were people at Bob's house. Apparently more boxes were taken out of his house or garage. Again, more non-neighbor cars were there and a loud female voice could be heard. My family was not sure what was going on.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #5

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #5

 

[zwiebel]

cloudajo, I adore you! I would send you hugs and kisses, but I'm English.

And I bet I know who the loud voice belonged to.

 

[zwiebel]

North American Van Lines,
2034 East Lincoln Ave, Ste 153, Anaheim, CA 92806.
Tel: 714 409 3585

North American Van lines
2910 East White Star Avenue, Anaheim, Ca 92806.
Tel: 714 688 4800

There you go Oriah. Just got to get you to pause long enough to see them now.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I don't want to seem simple but I'm going to anyway; when someone goes missing and LE wants to search a house/vehicle/building and the owner says no, why does LE have to produce such good cause to obtain a warrant? Isn't the fact that someone refuses to help evidence enough that their property should be searched?

What good reason could there ever be for refusing, and what are the benefits of having laws that allow people to do this? Anybody?

SBM

The US Constitution has the fourth amendment which reads:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

It grows out of the fact that the US was born of a political dictatorship so far as we were concerned; we were not accorded the same rights enjoyed by English citizens at the time although we got to pay the same taxes.

Allowing any governmental agent to simply come in and search because they want to opens the door wide to abuses of process and system. If you happen to be a registered Democrat in a largely Republican precinct, do you want to live with the threat of a search hanging over you if you don't vote Republican? I wouldn't.

Simply exercising one's fourth amendment rights is not considered probable cause for a search warrant; if it were, then what would be the point of having those rights?

Here's a real life example of why I wouldn't give consent to a search. I used to manage rental properties, which included handling the 3 year inspections. The codes for rental properties were so byzantine and impossible to understand that what one inspector wouldn't blink an eye at, another inspector would write us up for.

For example, one year, we had tenants who had a baby. The inspector noted that they had a dirty baby bottle in their kitchen sink and that it smelled of sour milk. This was put into the report and I had to talk to the tenants and then provide documentation that I had instructed the tenants to remedy the situation. It wasn't like the whole apartment was a pigsty; she had a bottle of breast milk that had gotten pushed to the back of the fridge and turned. No big deal and it certainly didn't indicate to me that they were bad parents or bad tenants.

So, if some crooked law enforcement officer wanted to wreak havoc on a neighbour and they were not restrained by the fourth amendment, they could walk into the neighbour's house any time armed with the municipal code and make the neighbour's life a misery, jumping through hoop after hoop of bureaucratic pettiness.

 

[believe09]

So, if some crooked law enforcement officer wanted to wreak havoc on a neighbour and they were not restrained by the fourth amendment, they could walk into the neighbour's house any time armed with the municipal code and make the neighbour's life a misery, jumping through hoop after hoop of bureaucratic pettiness.

exactly.

 

[zwiebel]

Yes, I suppose suspending your Fourth Amendment because I'm getting irritated probably wouldn't be a good idea. I don't have to look far here to be reminded of what can happen when people's rights go out of the window.

GrainneDhu, when you mentioned a rogue police officer with unlimited rights to enter a neighbour's house, a very frightening picture popped up - Drew Peterson, with nothing to stop him doing anything he wanted. Mmmmmm. Point absolutely taken.

Talking of law, I meant to ask; Do lie detector test results play any role in your courts? Or are they just a tool for LE?

 

[GrainneDhu]

Yes, I suppose suspending your Fourth Amendment because I'm getting irritated probably wouldn't be a good idea. I don't have to look far here to be reminded of what can happen when people's rights go out of the window.

GrainneDhu, when you mentioned a rogue police officer with unlimited rights to enter a neighbour's house, a very frightening picture popped up - Drew Peterson, with nothing to stop him doing anything he wanted. Mmmmmm. Point absolutely taken.

Talking of law, I meant to ask; Do lie detector test results play any role in your courts? Or are they just a tool for LE?

The results of polygraph tests are not generally admissible in court. Which is good because they are woo-woo science at best. The best study I've read so far says they are about 60% accurate. Why invest in an expensive machine and training for personnel when you could do almost as well with a quarter?

They are used as a tool by LE, mostly to bluff suspects. They have also notably failed in many cases. For instance, Gary Ridgway was a suspect in the Green River killings (they had a witness who wrote down his license plate number and then followed him home) but he was set aside as a suspect twice after passing polygraphs.

All of the spy scandals we've had in the last half century? They were all polygraphed repeatedly and passed repeatedly. Didn't stop them from passing secrets to other governments.

As for rogue police officers and what seem like unjust findings for the guilty (CA comes to mind). I honestly don't mind them in principle. I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who said "better a thousand guilty men go free than one innocent man convicted." We're nowhere near that good; the Department of Justice figures the unjust conviction rate is around 5%. In any system, there's inefficiency and slippage. If the price of CA going free (I believe the prosecutor over-charged her) is that our unjust conviction rate stays at 5%, so be it.

Life is always about trade-offs. We could have a lot higher conviction rate if we turned into a police state but I'm not willing to live that way, so I'm not going to suggest anyone else live that way either.

It is easy to feel good about freedom when times are good. It's a lot harder and much more necessary to say "freedom is worth this price we pay for it" when something bad happens.

 

[Oriah]

I do, kindaaa, see the problem. Although myself, it wouldn't occur to me to protect myself before looking after the interests of a missing loved one. But also, isn't there a rule or law or something about evidence and search warrants? That you can't use a warrant issued for one potential crime to uncover evidence related to another?

I should look this up, I know. Just afraid it's not going to be half as straightforward as it appears to be.

ETA: And I do, totally see why people would not co-operate when foul play is suspected and they are implicated. That's why I think it would be great if LE could make them co-operate!

Not an attorney here, but it's my understanding that search warrants, whether they be issued for an individual, property- whatever- are kind of the cornerstone of building criminal cases. They protect in court any potential evidence seized, because there's a legal chain of command where basically someone else is responsible for the preservation of integrity of any evidence seized.

 

[Oriah]

Random quick question that may have already been answered- anyone know if it was frequent for the CL to change times from day to day?

 

[zwiebel]

I have the impression from reading bits and pieces that the CL had a regular day and her visit that Monday was a one-off. In Disappeared, her description of Jeff's reaction certainly implies he was surprised to see her there outside of her normal day.

I am sure I have seen mentions of her 'regular day' so I don't think she was a daily cleaner. Weekly seems more likely.

 

[zwiebel]

This may be too much of a detail to matter but the CL says in Disappeared Bob always left 'the key' (singular) in the mail box if he went out when she was due.

Daughters said Bob's keys (plural) were missing.

Sounds to me like Bob might have had three sets of keys; Car keys with a front door key on them for him;

Key to leave for the CL;

And then surely a set of spares? Even if they were left over from When Georgia was alive.

So when daughters said his keys were missing, did they mean all of them? I find it very strange if the key for the CL was gone too. And how did JuM get in the next day? Did she have a set of keys to Bob's house? Or did she borrow the key from the neighbour, like AH?
And whose key did JeM use to let himself and the CL in? Why would Jum, living miles away, have keys for emergencies and AH, living a street away, not have them?

JeM had no reason to take Bob's, if Bob was there when he left to go to the store. And he had no reason to bring JuM's keys (if she had some) with him in the morning, because he knew Bob would be there to let him in.

This key business isn't adding up.

 

[believe09]

This may be too much of a detail to matter but the CL says in Disappeared Bob always left 'the key' (singular) in the mail box if he went out when she was due.

Daughters said Bob's keys (plural) were missing.

Sounds to me like Bob might have had three sets of keys; Car keys with a front door key on them for him;

Key to leave for the CL;

And then surely a set of spares? Even if they were left over from When Georgia was alive.

So when daughters said his keys were missing, did they mean all of them? I find it very strange if the key for the CL was gone too. And how did JuM get in the next day? Did she have a set of keys to Bob's house? Or did she borrow the key from the neighbour, like AH?
And whose key did JeM use to let himself and the CL in? Why would Jum, living miles away, have keys for emergencies and AH, living a street away, not have them?

JeM had no reason to take Bob's, if Bob was there when he left to go to the store. And he had no reason to bring JuM's keys (if she had some) with him in the morning, because he knew Bob would be there to let him in.

This key business isn't adding up.

Perhaps the keys were never returned to trusted neighbor. Did AH sit and wait at the house until his mother arrived? Did he search the neighborhood? Did someone hold on to the keys for continued access? Surely they didnt just leave the house empty and lock up after all the fuss of bringing LE to the door and having Mrs Harrod file a MP report. What if Bob was hurt in the cluttered garage, or in the back yard somewhere unable to call out? KWIM?

 

[zwiebel]

Neighbour's keys might well have been retained. That still doesn't make me happy about how JeM was getting access to the house on the day Bob went missing though. How he was able to 'let' the CL in the back door when he returned from one of his shopping trips?

I have two reasons to think that back door was locked. When the CL lady found no answer, no key in the mail box and was worried, wouldn't she have tried round the back too? If it was open, why did she need JeM to let her in? If there was a locked gate stopping her - again, how did JeM get in?

Second *reason is it now looks like JeM left the house before the CL and returned after his home depot visit, when she had already left. So did the CL lady just go and leave the house unlocked? Even though she was so anxious something ominous was in the air?. I think she locked up after herself. *

So again, how was JeM getting in and out of the house that day? And if was carrying around a spare set of keys for Bob's from home I have to ask why? If he didn't expect Bob to disappear and then thought Bob had just gone for a walk........at some stage that day he should have found himself locked out.

So, to sum up;

No keys means JeM was running in and out all day leaving the doors open and left the house unlocked for the night when he finally left. But at the same time, the CL couldn't get in herself. Doesn't make sense.

With keys means JeM either brought some from home or took some from Bob's house on his shopping trips. Doesn't make sense, if he was expecting the owner of that house to be there to let him in.

And don't forget the strange little 'JuM knows where the safe keys are' remark in that list. Kind of hints that JuM knows where they are, isn't telling anyone else and is fairly confident they will still be in that hiding place in Bob's house when she needs them. I hope LE was informed about this secret place the night they did the welfare check. Just so they could check and make sure Bob's missing keys were not in the house after all. That could have been very, very significant and put a full search for him in motion straight away.

Like the timeline, I think there is another story behind the missing keys, just waiting to be told.

 

[zwiebel]

Perhaps the keys were never returned to trusted neighbor. Did AH sit and wait at the house until his mother arrived? Did he search the neighborhood? Did someone hold on to the keys for continued access? Surely they didnt just leave the house empty and lock up after all the fuss of bringing LE to the door and having Mrs Harrod file a MP report. What if Bob was hurt in the cluttered garage, or in the back yard somewhere unable to call out? KWIM?

If AH at least wasn't out searching, it is very strange behaviour indeed. JeM and JuM are worried enough about Bob to phone all round the family, saying he's missing, but not worried enough to search for him themselves? Or ask their son to?

That doesn't make any sense either.

In fact, all the family sitting around making phone calls that night instead of searching for Bob, doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[believe09]

Oh I am willing to bet they didnt stir. Did AH go search for him when the alarm was sounded presumably by JeM that "oh btw, Bob still wasnt at the house when I left at (fill in the time)" AH was the closest-surely he was out and about checking favorite haunts. JeM should have called in the MP report-he saw him last and had all of the current information. According to CAExile, he was a nice guy who had been in the family for years and years.

Why does it seem that they knew Bob wasnt hurt in the house somewhere? That he hadnt returned after JeM left and had an accident?

All of this, imo, adds up to more evidence of an estrangement. Why werent people there??

 

[zwiebel]

A family estrangement would certainly make more sense to me; the loss of a mother; rows with a father over money, marriage and possessions leading to an estrangement; then Bob goes missing and nobody cares much and nobody does much. I'd accept that. These things happen in families.

I don't know how we can ever hope to reconcile that with the dutiful SIL carrying out repairs, loving daughter changing sheets, the denials of any rows and the hundreds and thousands of dollars Bob gave/lent to family.

Seems like if there was an estrangement, the true depth of it was concealed from Bob. People pretended they were happy when they were not. Wonder why that could have been?

 

[believe09]

A family estrangement would certainly make more sense to me; the loss of a mother; rows with a father over money, marriage and possessions leading to an estrangement; then Bob goes missing and nobody cares much and nobody does much. I'd accept that. These things happen in families.

I don't know how we can ever hope to reconcile that with the dutiful SIL carrying out repairs, loving daughter changing sheets, the denials of any rows and the hundreds and thousands of dollars Bob gave/lent to family.

Seems like if there was an estrangement, the true depth of it was concealed from Bob. People pretended they were happy when they were not. Wonder why that could have been?

Or, Bob loved his family but they didnt love him. It is an explanation-I dont know if I believe it is true.

 

[Oriah]

You know what I'm beginning to wonder? (Ok, not beginning lol.) If we're talking about two or possibly three different types of keys here. If the CL was referring to one kind, and family members referring to a different kind.

Like house keys vs safe keys. Or spare keys. Or vehicle keys that may have had house keys on a ring. Or safety deposit box keys. That sort of thing? Is it possible that there were keys in a safe in the home to something like a safety deposit box at a bank?

Idk about Mr. Harrod, but I do know an elderly couple who still keeps the keys to their safety deposit boxes (where they also keep a copy of their wills) in the butter compartment of their fridge.

(Btw ya'll- not a good idea.)

 

[zwiebel]

Oriah, you haven't seen my post for you above, have you? Think we may have two likely candidates for the clutter removal truck.

I think I'll have to take it down to the SAR thread to catch you.

I think your keys to a safe deposit box, kept in a safe at home idea, is a very feasible one. And I certainly think anyone of Bob's age and property portfolio would have had a small collection of keys, at least?

GrainneDhu, when you were in charge of rentals, how many keys did you have?

ETA: the post isn't above now. We're on a different page. Sigh.

 

[zwiebel]

Oh, and I keep my key safely in my pocket. Like I did this morning.

Instead of it being in the door to let in my electrician, my plasterer, his partner and the baby who were stranded in the snow outside. So glad my German isn't good sometimes. Baby was fine, by the way. Nothing gets him down.