CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #12

[Oriah]

Sorry, I did see it thank you and working on it (got pulled away for a few min.)
Does anyone know if, err, the changing of the linens timeline coincides with any other cleaning AH or JeM may have done at any other residences? Also- anyone know if the CL- let's say she came to clean once a week. Obviously she was well aware of Georgia's illness during the time period they engaged her services and she had become quite close to the Harrod's.
So what was the beef between JuM and the CL??

(Oh ps zwiebel, my german is decent I am proud to say! schutzhund training and all that lol.)

 

[zwiebel]

What was the beef between JuM and the CL? I didn't know there was one. What have I missed?

There seems to be very little info about the men in this family at all. I cannot understand the silence, given that one of them was right there in the middle of everything the day Bob went missing. Police mentioned Bob's house was clean. And Mikkismom mentioned there was a carwash nearby.....

My mistake with German was learning it at one end of the country, then promptly moving to the other end. I have two accents and apparently am incomprehensible but very funny.

ETA I have an LE dog training ground next to me. I'm always amazed how little the trainers actually have to say to their dogs to get them to do very complicated things. Maybe they use signals?

 

[Oriah]

I don't know of any beef specifically- guess I was just wondering why JuM wouldn't call CL to ready house for FH, since she was there the night before then JeM that morning and assumably Mr. Harrod was relying on CL to ready house? There's only one more day on that timeline before FH was supposed to arrive back in Placentia, correct?

This time line so does not make sense.
When CL arrived to clean and the bed was unmade, did she make it and if so with what linens? Did she laundry the first set of linens before JuM changed them the next day?

 

[zwiebel]

We have just mentioned two of the three things I always have in the back of mind as I'm convinced one will play a leading role in solving Bob's case one day:

A broken silence.
Dogs.
Hikers.

I do have a feeling that when Bob is found, there'll be clues. There's no criminal genius behind his disappearance.

 

[zwiebel]

I don't know of any beef specifically- guess I was just wondering why JuM wouldn't call CL to ready house for FH, since she was there the night before then JeM that morning and assumably Mr. Harrod was relying on CL to ready house? There's only one more day on that timeline before FH was supposed to arrive back in Placentia, correct?

This time line so does not make sense.
When CL arrived to clean and the bed was unmade, did she make it and if so with what linens? Did she laundry the first set of linens before JuM changed them the next day?

The bed thing really puzzles me. The CL sees the bed wasn't made ( very unusual, she says). I bet she made it, and knew where the clean linen was kept. And what was in the dirty laundry basket. If not, when LE checked the house that night, would they really just have said the house was neat and tidy? I would have thought an unmade bed would have got a mention somewhere.

As for JuM going there with special sheets and to tidy up.....well. Makes it sound as though JeM had told her about the unmade bed. And JuM wasn't convinced the CL had done the job properly. If I was one of Bob's loved ones, this is what I would have said to JeM:

'JeM, if you were worried enough to tell your wife about the unmade bed so she ran down to make it next morning - then you should have been worried enough to stick around that night to see if your FIL came home. And call LE if he didn't.'

 

[Oriah]

Respectfully snipped for space:
< Makes it sound as though JeM had told her about the unmade bed. And JuM wasn't convinced the CL had done the job properly.>

That's exactly what it sounds like to me as well.

Now personally, I make beds as soon as I get out of them. Heck, I even make them in hotels when I know cleaning people are going to come change them regardless. So I understand where CL was coming from when talking about how an unmade bed concerned her. I also understand why JuM might have wanted to bring new sheets if she's of the same mind.

But the actual linen situation itself- is it possible there is a different receipt involved from, say another Home Depot or other store that carries linen packs?
Just a thought I guess.

 

[zwiebel]

I think this is one thing that might be checkable. Those very sheets were on the list you see, and were reclaimed because they were so special/ valuable.

So JuM will still have them, as she went to so much trouble to get them back. And FH will have seen them. They were put on the bed for her. New sheets have such a different look and feel, don't you think? FH will have noticed these different, special sheets on the bed. She had been sleeping on the old ones just a short time before, and would have noticed this new detail in her marital home and known it wasn't Bob.

New sheets are the type of detail many men would simply never think of, imo.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Neighbour's keys might well have been retained. That still doesn't make me happy about how JeM was getting access to the house on the day Bob went missing though. How he was able to 'let' the CL in the back door when he returned from one of his shopping trips?

I have two reasons to think that back door was locked. When the CL lady found no answer, no key in the mail box and was worried, wouldn't she have tried round the back too? If it was open, why did she need JeM to let her in? If there was a locked gate stopping her - again, how did JeM get in?

Second *reason is it now looks like JeM left the house before the CL and returned after his home depot visit, when she had already left. So did the CL lady just go and leave the house unlocked? Even though she was so anxious something ominous was in the air?. I think she locked up after herself. *

So again, how was JeM getting in and out of the house that day? And if was carrying around a spare set of keys for Bob's from home I have to ask why? If he didn't expect Bob to disappear and then thought Bob had just gone for a walk........at some stage that day he should have found himself locked out.

So, to sum up;

No keys means JeM was running in and out all day leaving the doors open and left the house unlocked for the night when he finally left. But at the same time, the CL couldn't get in herself. Doesn't make sense.

With keys means JeM either brought some from home or took some from Bob's house on his shopping trips. Doesn't make sense, if he was expecting the owner of that house to be there to let him in.

And don't forget the strange little 'JuM knows where the safe keys are' remark in that list. Kind of hints that JuM knows where they are, isn't telling anyone else and is fairly confident they will still be in that hiding place in Bob's house when she needs them. I hope LE was informed about this secret place the night they did the welfare check. Just so they could check and make sure Bob's missing keys were not in the house after all. That could have been very, very significant and put a full search for him in motion straight away.

Like the timeline, I think there is another story behind the missing keys, just waiting to be told.

BBM

In regard to the bolded, if the CL locked up after herself, it would have to be with a doorknob lock. Dead bolt locks have to be keyed to lock from the outside. If the CL used the doorknob lock, most of those can be popped with a credit card.

 

[GrainneDhu]

If AH at least wasn't out searching, it is very strange behaviour indeed. JeM and JuM are worried enough about Bob to phone all round the family, saying he's missing, but not worried enough to search for him themselves? Or ask their son to?

That doesn't make any sense either.

In fact, all the family sitting around making phone calls that night instead of searching for Bob, doesn't make any sense at all.

Doesn't make any sense for family (JuM) to keep changing stories to LE until she hit on one that actually delayed a search. As Oriah pointed out previously.

If my father were missing, I'd say anything to get the police searching immediately. I'd figure that after my father was found safe, I could apologise. The important thing would be to get the search going ASAP.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Or, Bob loved his family but they didnt love him. It is an explanation-I dont know if I believe it is true.

Or Bob loved his descendants but had started to question whether they loved him or his bank account.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Oriah, you haven't seen my post for you above, have you? Think we may have two likely candidates for the clutter removal truck.

I think I'll have to take it down to the SAR thread to catch you.

I think your keys to a safe deposit box, kept in a safe at home idea, is a very feasible one. And I certainly think anyone of Bob's age and property portfolio would have had a small collection of keys, at least?

GrainneDhu, when you were in charge of rentals, how many keys did you have?

ETA: the post isn't above now. We're on a different page. Sigh.

At least one for each unit. I had the locks re-keyed between tenants, so sometimes I forgot to get rid of the old key. My dad made me a little board with hooks and the unit numbers carved above each hook to keep them straight. Otherwise it would have been a hopeless jumble.

Mostly it was for the tenant's convenience. If they locked themselves out and I was home, I'd go over and let them in for free. If I wasn't at home, they either waited or called the locksmith, which was a giant hassle and quite expensive for them (they'd have to prove they lived there and pay the fee upfront because I wasn't going to foot the bill).

I used to think those keys were breeding when my back was turned.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Respectfully snipped for space:
< Makes it sound as though JeM had told her about the unmade bed. And JuM wasn't convinced the CL had done the job properly.>

That's exactly what it sounds like to me as well.

Now personally, I make beds as soon as I get out of them. Heck, I even make them in hotels when I know cleaning people are going to come change them regardless. So I understand where CL was coming from when talking about how an unmade bed concerned her. I also understand why JuM might have wanted to bring new sheets if she's of the same mind.

But the actual linen situation itself- is it possible there is a different receipt involved from, say another Home Depot or other store that carries linen packs?
Just a thought I guess.

You and my father both. If my father went missing and his bed wasn't made, I'd be on red alert.

He even makes the bed on the day his cleaning lady comes. She takes the sheets off and replaces them with fresh ones while the old set is in the washing machine. He just doesn't like the untidy look of an unmade bed.

 

[zwiebel]

BBM

In regard to the bolded, if the CL locked up after herself, it would have to be with a doorknob lock. Dead bolt locks have to be keyed to lock from the outside. If the CL used the doorknob lock, most of those can be popped with a credit card.

I was thinking that the CL might have found 'her' mailbox key in its normal storage place inside, used that to lock up, then placed it in the mailbox for Bob to put away when he got home.

Bob owned at least three houses at this time, two cars and had a safe in his house. He has got to have had a lot of keys and a place to store them. And it should have been pretty easy for family to see exactly which were missing, I would have thought.

I suppose it isn't that important if family did have spare keys to Bob's house or not, really. But I do think it could be very significant if JeM brought keys with him on July 27th, 2009.

That would suggest he knew in advance that at some point that day, Bob would be gone.

 

[zwiebel]

You and my father both. If my father went missing and his bed wasn't made, I'd be on red alert.

He even makes the bed on the day his cleaning lady comes. She takes the sheets off and replaces them with fresh ones while the old set is in the washing machine. He just doesn't like the untidy look of an unmade bed.

And I think that's exactly what Bob and his CL did too.

 

[zwiebel]

Bob's neat little hat collection, pic 3 of 3;

http://seattletimes.com/html/living/2010985815_disappeared08.html

Bob's neat little bolo tie collection, pic 7 of 12.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-214111--.html?pic=1

This was a man who kept his collections in order, even if some people thought they were just clutter. Nothing will convince me Bob didn't also have a neat little collection of keys, and that at least one of his family members knew exactly which ones were where they were supposed to be, and which ones were not. Probably JuM. After all, she knew where the safe keys were.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I was thinking that the CL might have found 'her' mailbox key in its normal storage place inside, used that to lock up, then placed it in the mailbox for Bob to put away when he got home.

Bob owned at least three houses at this time, two cars and had a safe in his house. He has got to have had a lot of keys and a place to store them. And it should have been pretty easy for family to see exactly which were missing, I would have thought.

I suppose it isn't that important if family did have spare keys to Bob's house or not, really. But I do think it could be very significant if JeM brought keys with him on July 27th, 2009.

That would suggest he knew in advance that at some point that day, Bob would be gone.

I hung my little key board inside the closet door in my office. The closet had overlapping sliding doors, so even if the closet door was open, you couldn't see the keys. You had to know they were there in order to find them. It wasn't out in plain sight because I felt I had a duty to protect the privacy of my tenants. I didn't want someone coming into my office and nipping a key off the hook without me noticing.

I wonder if the CL had ever left the house without Bob being there before? And I wonder what their pay arrangement was? If she was paid per visit, did Bob leave a check for her? Or did she just assume Bob would be good for it on the next visit? Had the issue ever come up before?

 

[zwiebel]

I would think it had happened before, as they had made that key arrangement. Must have been once or twice when Bob and/or Georgia were not back in time and The CL let herself out.

No idea about the payment. If her normal hours were the same as those that Monday (12-3) that's only three hours' pay. Not more than a person might have in their wallet. But Bob also used his chequebook so.......

 

[Oriah]

I have been pondering several of these issues all day- the locks, the keys, the linens, drive times, repairs, etc. And now I'm wondering (in my very random fashion, sorry ya'll) but the 'back door' that you can see is clearly either a french or sliding door. Either way, one side opens first; and it depends on whether the catch is on the inside, the outside, or both.
When JeM entered through the back door (when CL was there) which was previously 'left open'? Did he pull to the right or to the left on the door? Was back door closed again when CL came through and cleaned the residence? also, when Andrew had the well being check, was the door to the garage from the inside of the house to the garage fully open or closed and where the heck is THAT key??


I am back to the devil being in the details.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I would think it had happened before, as they had made that key arrangement. Must have been once or twice when Bob and/or Georgia were not back in time and The CL let herself out.

No idea about the payment. If her normal hours were the same as those that Monday (12-3) that's only three hours' pay. Not more than a person might have in their wallet. But Bob also used his chequebook so.......

Well, clearly she had arrived when there was no one home previously. I think I'm trying to find out exactly what was the range of normal.

It's hard to say how much money that would be. When my husband was doing housecleaning in California in the late 1980s (as a single parent, the flexible hours were a big draw), he charged $25/hour. I would think prices would have gone up in the meantime but I don't know that for sure.

In any case, if the CL was used to receiving her pay at the time of service, I really, really want to know if her pay was left for her that day. Or did JeM, out of his filial devotion to his father-in-law, cover the bill that day?

 

[believe09]

Did anyone else in the family use her to clean their houses? Usually cleaning ladies are a referral type service-for example, one of her clients probably recommended her to Bob and Georgia.