CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #14

[believe09]

I am so impressed with PPD for being willing to take advantage of the opportunity at some national media. Talk about laying it on the line.

 

[tamild]

:floorlaugh:

The girls made a play for Bob's trust accounts on August 7, and didnt actually become appointed until March of 2010.

In the interest of transparency, it would be nice if they would file an audit for 2009. IIRC, they filed one from May 2010-May 2011 but only after some serious foot dragging. The audits are due every 180 days.

Now, we know that since they werent court appointed until March 2010, they couldnt possibly have taken distribution of any funds prior to that time. So at least Bob's estate was intact for that period of time.

Right?

BBM

Oh sure...because we all know that old men never, ever keep money in the house. LOL What's that in the back of my mind? Oh yes, someone knew where the key to the safe was. :twocents:

 

[zwiebel]

'Other than Harrod's wallet and keys, no other items appeared to be missing,' Brady said.

http://www.ocregister.com/news/harrod-147900-loomis-family.html

I just noticed the very last line of this article. Published on Thursday July 30th, 2009. Three days after Bob disappeared. Either RB or someone else must have been through Bob's house quite thoroughly, to know that - checking closets, cupboards, paperwork files to see if money had been taken. I wonder when that took place? And why there didn't seem to be any confusion about Bob taking his glasses at this point?

I suppose the first search could have been carried out by JeM the day Bob disappeared, if he returned to the house after the housekeeper and he had left the first time.

The second search could have been carried out by grandson AH that night, when he entered the house for the welfare check.

The third search could have been carried out by JuM, the morning after when she dropped in to change the sheets and do the media interview.

Or was it RB who went through things to check what was missing and what was not? Do we know if she was in the house on Tuesday 28th, as well as JuM.

It's difficult to comprehend how, between them all, they couldn't come up with the colour shirt Bob was wearing, any info about accessories he usually wore, or if he had taken his glasses or not.

 

[zwiebel]

BBM

Oh sure...because we all know that old men never, ever keep money in the house. LOL What's that in the back of my mind? Oh yes, someone knew where the key to the safe was. :twocents:

That was son-in-law's wife, Jum. And she was also the one who found Bob's missing documents, the night of the heated family meeting. Looks like she was the one who knew where everything was then.

 

[Oriah]

Quite a few questions cropped up here about that subject too. I do think it might be a good idea for the episodes to show a few maps and shots of at least the local terrain. In the way history documentaries often do.

There are people out there who are really good at that kind of stuff, and it would give a lot of minds something to mull over and perhaps come up with ideas that might help. Someone seeing their own street or local area come up on TV might get a memory triggered too - you never know. I'm still hoping that might be the case here.

BBM: Yes.
People tend to take a specific interest in their own neighborhoods, especially when a crime may have happened there. Sort of the 'not in my backyard' thought process.
I hope the ID episode brings in tips from anyone who may have seen something that day, even if it was just a vehicle driving in a certain direction.

I've wondered if perhaps this could be a useful resource:
http://www.placentia.org/index.aspx?NID=393

 

[scorekeeper]

Why did she go over and change the sheets?

The housekeeper should have washed and changed the sheets - that's usually the first thing they do....take off the sheets and throw them in the washer....then do the other house work....then remake the bed before they leave

 

[tlcya]

In last night's airing of Disappeared on ID what I found interesting is the adult children demanding an accounting of the trust. The kids claimed that Bob was not doing what he was supposed to as trustee of that trust. Without having the trust in front of me it is difficult to know if they were even entitled to such an accounting.

I tend to believe the trust was set up as a bypass trust (I think the episode last night even referred to it as such). that means their wills pour money and other assets automatically into a trust as a means to avoid (bypass) the need for probate after a spouse is deceased. Commonly the beneficiary of the trust in that circumstance is the surviving spouse with children or other heirs named as secondary trustees and secondary beneficiaries.

IF that was how Bob and Georgia's trust was set up, I don't even know that secondary beneficiaries would have a right to demand an accounting :waitasec:

I strongly believe the trust probably named BOB HARROD and GEORGIA HARROD as both co-trustees and co-beneficiaries with language allowing each of them to act alone in the event the other died or became incapable of or incompetent to continue acting as a trustee.

I think the children were named as successor trustees and/or successor beneficiaries in the event BOTH Bob and Georgia were dead.

That is the most common way to set up an estate plan for a couple of means so that they can experience fewer tax liabilities and avoid probate upon the death of one of the spouses.

If that is the case, then IMO, the children had no right to an accounting as they would not have benefited until such time as Bob was deceased and only then if he had not amended or revoked the trust altogether.

Quite frankly, I think the trust and the estate plan was set up with an eye toward possible long term costs of care in the event of catastrophic illness or aging diseases as a form of medicaid planning and was never meant to be a windfall for the kids. Many couples know that even if they have a little money, one spouse needing special care, nursing home, hospice, etc can become quite costly and those costs of care can eat up the funds very very quickly, leaving the other spouse without a pot to piss in. After all those years of frugal living and working hard, I can see that sort of estate plan appealing to the Harrods.

Now that I am thinking along the lines of Medicaid planning I want to do a bit of research on CA laws governing that.

http://davidtate.us/files/A_Summary...ts_and_Elder_Law_Dave_Tate_Esq2._8.22.08_.pdf

 

[zwiebel]

Why did she go over and change the sheets?

The housekeeper should have washed and changed the sheets - that's usually the first thing they do....take off the sheets and throw them in the washer....then do the other house work....then remake the bed before they leave

I think the reason given was to make things nice for Fontelle and Bob only had old mismatched sheets etc, etc.

I find it strange because Fontelle had been living in the house for weeks before she left, and I would have thought it was up to her and Bob to decide if the sheets they slept on were good enough for them.

 

[tlcya]

To be nosy now that they were back in Bob's life to some degree. I think they hated the marriage and were very unhappy about Fontelle's entry into the pictured but had only recently been allowed back in Bob's life after he cut them out for a bit. Rather than rock the boat, they played at loving concern about Bob and Fontelle's comfort and feigned wanting to assist them get their life together started right.

This explains family members helping with things like house repairs, concerns about changing sheets, Fontelle not having access to Bob's money when he went missing, etc. It was all so much acting in order to remain close enough to keep an eye on what was going on.

 

[Cubby]

I think the reason given was to make things nice for Fontelle and Bob only had old mismatched sheets etc, etc.

I find it strange because Fontelle had been living in the house for weeks before she left, and I would have thought it was up to her and Bob to decide if the sheets they slept on were good enough for them.

How the heck would JuM even know what type of sheets her dad had on his bed? He made the bed everyday. When the bed is made one doesn't necessarily doesn't see the sheets.

Either she replaced them because she was concerned about something being found forensically or she was snooping through his linen closet.

Besides the sheets in my own home, I can't say I know what kind of sheets anyone else has outside my home.

It'd be very interesting to see the reciept for the sheets and whether she purchased them before or after Bob's disappearance.

 

[zwiebel]

Here's where she demanded them back, anyway:

Subject: Items from Mom and Dad's home list.

Items wanted from Dad's home at *** Carnation Drive, Placentia.

46. Linens on antique bed as well as the silk bed skirt and sheets on king-sized bed in master bedroom.

The list is 79 items long and also includes the two safes in Bob's home that apparently belonged to daughter JuM and son-in-law JeM, gold coins, including a bag of kruggerands that JuM claimed had been promised to the family, a classic car that belonged to grandson, all items inside the china and curio cabinets, teacups, Bob's painting of his little dog, knitting wool etc....

"We also need a day to go through the house and select items we cannot list as this list is compiled from memory only. A time when Fontelle and her family is away from the house."

Scroll, as the list is about 37 pages down the document:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18179&d=1292952770

 

[Angelo]

In last night's airing of Disappeared on ID what I found interesting is the adult children demanding an accounting of the trust. The kids claimed that Bob was not doing what he was supposed to as trustee of that trust. Without having the trust in front of me it is difficult to know if they were even entitled to such an accounting.

I tend to believe the trust was set up as a bypass trust (I think the episode last night even referred to it as such). that means their wills pour money and other assets automatically into a trust as a means to avoid (bypass) the need for probate after a spouse is deceased. Commonly the beneficiary of the trust in that circumstance is the surviving spouse with children or other heirs named as secondary trustees and secondary beneficiaries.

IF that was how Bob and Georgia's trust was set up, I don't even know that secondary beneficiaries would have a right to demand an accounting :waitasec:

I strongly believe the trust probably named BOB HARROD and GEORGIA HARROD as both co-trustees and co-beneficiaries with language allowing each of them to act alone in the event the other died or became incapable of or incompetent to continue acting as a trustee.

I think the children were named as successor trustees and/or successor beneficiaries in the event BOTH Bob and Georgia were dead.

That is the most common way to set up an estate plan for a couple of means so that they can experience fewer tax liabilities and avoid probate upon the death of one of the spouses.

If that is the case, then IMO, the children had no right to an accounting as they would not have benefited until such time as Bob was deceased and only then if he had not amended or revoked the trust altogether.

Quite frankly, I think the trust and the estate plan was set up with an eye toward possible long term costs of care in the event of catastrophic illness or aging diseases as a form of medicaid planning and was never meant to be a windfall for the kids. Many couples know that even if they have a little money, one spouse needing special care, nursing home, hospice, etc can become quite costly and those costs of care can eat up the funds very very quickly, leaving the other spouse without a pot to piss in. After all those years of frugal living and working hard, I can see that sort of estate plan appealing to the Harrods.

Now that I am thinking along the lines of Medicaid planning I want to do a bit of research on CA laws governing that.

http://davidtate.us/files/A_Summary...ts_and_Elder_Law_Dave_Tate_Esq2._8.22.08_.pdf

:goodpost:

 

[Angelo]

To be nosy now that they were back in Bob's life to some degree. I think they hated the marriage and were very unhappy about Fontelle's entry into the pictured but had only recently been allowed back in Bob's life after he cut them out for a bit. Rather than rock the boat, they played at loving concern about Bob and Fontelle's comfort and feigned wanting to assist them get their life together started right.

This explains family members helping with things like house repairs, concerns about changing sheets, Fontelle not having access to Bob's money when he went missing, etc. It was all so much acting in order to remain close enough to keep an eye on what was going on.

Exactly!

Those daughters say one thing but do another! The way they treated Fontelle after their father disappeared speaks volumes on how they really felt!

 

[Angelo]

Ahhh, I see. Thank you. Could he have had a key to the back door, but not the front? Just a thought. All three doors to my home are keyed differently.

Technically speaking, if no one in the family had a key of their own, wouldn't they have all been trespassing? Especially in the days following Bob's disappearance? Maybe I'm over thinking things, but I personally wouldn't be in my parent's house changing sheets and what-not unless I had an open invitation to be in their home (which I do.) Still, if one of them were missing, the ONLY reason I would be in their home would be to look for a clue as to where they could be. Sheets would be the last thing on my mind. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that, even though I have a key and an open invitation, I NEVER enter my parent's home without their knowledge. If they were missing, I would look for clues-with LE assistance, but I'd also be VERY concerned about foul play and disturbing any potential evidence. The sheet thing to me is just beyond bizarre.

Speaking of bizarre...am I the only one that finds it strange that the family came to greet Fontelle, and then left her alone in that house? Didn't any of the daughters offer to have Fontelle stay with them?

BBM~~~~~~

The daughters did not even want Fontelle to stay in the house. I believe they were hoping she would leave and go back to Missouri right away.

Daughter RB posted the following on a public forum on August 8, 2009:


"Our family wanted to be charitible by allowing Fontelle to temporarily stay in our parents' home, until we know more. The home has to be maintained as a part of OUR parents' family trust. All our Dad's attorney confirmed is that Dad had NOT amended his half of the trust to include his new wife of less than a month."

 

[suzyq211]

I think the reason given was to make things nice for Fontelle and Bob only had old mismatched sheets etc, etc.

I find it strange because Fontelle had been living in the house for weeks before she left, and I would have thought it was up to her and Bob to decide if the sheets they slept on were good enough for them.

BBM

Yes, as we all know...cheap, skinflint Bob had old, mismatched sheets!:furious:

 

[Angelo]

BBM

Yes, as we all know...cheap, skinflint Bob had old, mismatched sheets!:furious:

Daughter RB posted the following on a public forum Sept. 25, 2010. She is posting about JuM going to Mr. Harrod's home on July 28, 2009:

"Later that afternoon my sister came down from the mountains to watch for Dad to hopefully return and help him get special touches finished before Fontelle's arrival the next day. One example is that she had Dad buy new sheets the week before for this special occasion and he was supposed to take the cheap mismatched sheets off the bed and have a nice new matching set on so it would be extra special for Fontelle."

 

[zwiebel]

Didn't it mention in Disappeared how PB was the one who organised Bob's financial matters and paperwork? Because he was no good at that sort of stuff?

And yet this suggests she had a little difficulty organising her own:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #2

 

[tlcya]

my two favorite lines of the episode of disappeared aired stateside last night were the daughter's comment about the heated family "discussion" happening the day before Bob disappeared being a coincidence.

And the detective finishing the episode with the comment that the truth behind what happened to Bob lies in the family trust and the family finances.

Like two big ole honkin bookends those two statements.

Where Bob is lies right between the two, the first comment being an untruth the last being the ultimate truth.

 

[tlcya]

Didn't it mention in Disappeared how PB was the one who organised Bob's financial matters and paperwork? Because he was no good at that sort of stuff?

And yet this suggests she had a little difficulty organising her own:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #2

Yes, she claims to have discovered the hairdresser gifting going on while assisting Bob with his income taxes.

 

[Cubby]

Here's where she demanded them back, anyway:

Subject: Items from Mom and Dad's home list.

Items wanted from Dad's home at *** Carnation Drive, Placentia.

46. Linens on antique bed as well as the silk bed skirt and sheets on king-sized bed in master bedroom.

The list is 79 items long and also includes the two safes in Bob's home that apparently belonged to daughter JuM and son-in-law JeM, gold coins, including a bag of kruggerands that JuM claimed had been promised to the family, a classic car that belonged to grandson, all items inside the china and curio cabinets, teacups, Bob's painting of his little dog, knitting wool etc....

"We also need a day to go through the house and select items we cannot list as this list is compiled from memory only. A time when Fontelle and her family is away from the house."

Scroll, as the list is about 37 pages down the document:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18179&d=1292952770

BBM. She claims she can remember 79 line items, some lines with more than one item per line, from memory, but no one can recall what time Bob went missing.