CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #2

[BuzzieCat]

I can only base this off my professional training and scenario running, but let me know what you think. She enters the elevator multiple times. Meaning there is a weak control link if we are assuming your perp is outside. Without a weapon, it becomes even less so, and I would argue that if he/she did not have a weapon, that individual would have had to go in the elevator to remove her. Highly unlikely you could get any compliance without a weapon. <snipped for space, bold by me>

Totally agree. I don't think there's anyone out in the hallway in that video. IMO she thinks someone is out there preventing the door from closing, not realizing that she herself pressed "door hold." To me this also indicates something off about her thinking, some kind of altered mental state, because she couldn't figure out what was causing the door to stay open and by all accounts she was a bright girl and should have been able to figure out how the elevator works.

Going on the assumption that Elisa herself caused the door to stay open, any potential assailant in the hallway wouldn't let her get back into the elevator over and over again because she could cancel the door hold and escape.

All that dilly-dallying in the hallway for several minutes would also increase the risk of the assailant being seen with the victim by hotel guests/employees.

Also, I don't think if you're frightened by someone, your first instinct would be to pop out of the elevator in a teasing manner as if to say "boo!"

IMO she is either displaying signs of a schizophrenia-like illness or has perhaps intentionally or unintentionally taken a substance that is causing her strange actions. This doesn't mean she was stupid or a bad person and is not intended as an insult. If she was ill or medicated, she would certainly be at higher risk of being victimized, but she also probably could have gotten up on the roof by herself since I get the feeling security at Stay/Cecil is not that hot. :moo:

I could see it going either way - she went up there herself or perhaps someone coerced her up there. Maybe someone gave her an overdose and didn't want to call the police and be questioned.

 

[manlet]

Anyone know what the graffiti means? It looks rather new and fresh looking next to the water tanks. Was it written with chalk?

 

[fred&edna]

Another picture shows a hose that appears to be coming out of the tank. It's possible water was pumped out of the tank before the body was removed, making the depth of the water in the picture taken after her removal significantly lower than it had been. There have been no substantive reports on the position, condition, or clothing status of the body when it was found, although there are plenty of posts, tweets, and articles asserting such evidence without a quote from LE or someone at the rescue scene. Some of the posts here have lead to others accepting them as new facts; they include things like, "This guy on Twitter knew about it first and he said...." or "This network broke the story before she was identified and they said...", but none of it is backed up by links.

As far as the autopsy goes, the body was likely sitting in water for three weeks. There may have been signs of drowning that the coroner deemed could potentially have manifested themselves after her time of death, during her time in the tank. So they are waiting for the toxicology tests to see if those might be more conclusive before closing the book on how Elisa died.

This article contains quotes from Sgt. Lopez

"Lopez said the hotel has four cisterns on its roof that are each about 10 feet tall, 4.5 feet wide and hold at least 1,000 gallons of water pumped up from city pipes.

Lam's body was found Tuesday morning at the bottom of one cistern that was about three-quarters full of water, Lopez said.

The opening at the top of the cistern is too small to accommodate firefighters and equipment, so they had to cut a hole in the storage tank to recover Lam's body."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...-where-missing-canadian-woman-was-found-dead/

and...

CBSLA - the news outlet based in Los Angeles first broke the news live via aerial coverage on the rooftops, reporting a maintenance worker discovering Elisa Lam's body in the water tank (they didn't identify her body as Elisa in the beginning, just said a woman's body) and said that the body inside was nude, and floating face up in the 3/4 full water tank.

** sorry don't have a link for the last one, but I'll look

 

[kenmore]

And, there is something wrong with that?

Not sure where I said something was wrong with it. I was responding to a poster who asked why people were assuming that she was talking, whether it was because of a specific piece of evidence in the video (the intercom, to be exact.) I've been following this thread long enough to know that no, none of the video theories are based on anything tangible, so I tried to give a helpful answer. Never called for any cessation of the theories, to be sure. Am I of the opinion there are more worthwhile things to look into and discuss at this point other than the video? Sure.

 

[LittleWing]

Anyone know what the graffiti means? It looks rather new and fresh looking next to the water tanks. Was it written with chalk?

Fecto **** her suma =


Cursory looks on google shows that "en fecto" is Spanish for "actually" and "suma" Spanish for sum, amount, or total.......


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[fred&edna]

Not sure where I said something was wrong with it. I was responding to a poster who asked why people were assuming that she was talking, whether it was because of a specific piece of evidence in the video (the intercom, to be exact.) I've been following this thread long enough to know that no, none of the video theories are based on anything tangible, so I tried to give a helpful answer. Never called for any cessation of the theories, to be sure. Am I of the opinion there are more worthwhile things to look into and discuss at this point other than the video? Sure.

Thanks! I wasn't sure so that's why I asked

 

[mrjmmr]

Hi,

I've only been following this case for a few days, this is my first time posting here, but here are my thoughts:

I'm naturally a skeptic so I want to see strong evidence of something before I run with it. In this case the big leap that hasn't been made (please point me to the evidence if you have seen it and I missed it -- there are a lot of posts here to go through!) is going from this being a single-person accident/suicide to the involvement of a second person.

Until I see or hear of some positive evidence of this second person, my best guess as to what happened is: young woman known to have mental health issues (self-admitted) has breakdown (which we see on the elevator), finds her way to the roof (even if alarm was set off, in a seedy place like this I bet alarms go off all the time and get ignored) and into the water tank where she drowns. What it would take to consider a second person is: evidence of homicide from the autopsy (not yet forthcoming, but we'll see), evidence from video or eyewitnesses of this second person, or a conclusive statement that there is no way she could have gotten into that tank by herself in the manner in which she was found (e.g. if lid had to be closed/replaced from outside, and was found as such.)

Interesting case though, eh?

 

[wfgodot]

Hi mrjmmr and welcome to WS.

 

[littlekitten]

I suffer from depression myself and wonder about it sometimes but would never EVER act upon it. It looks like Elisa was going through a lot of transitions in her life. Lots of changes and uncertainty and that on top of her mental disorders is a lot for one young woman's shoulders.

That being said, I just don't think this is a case of suicide.

I agree; and as I've said before on this forum, it's dehumanising/belittling of anyone to assume a situation involving the demise of someone who is mentally ill is a consequence of their mental state. Just because she has been diagnosed with something doesn't mean suicide is on her mind - it's just one of those 'things', I don't think I've ever known someone my age who hasn't had the thought of suicide cross their mind (even those who aren't considered 'mentally ill'). Being a young person can be stressful at times, especially if she was restless in her routine. At most, her mental state may have kept her up all night (some medication does this too) and that's why she was walking around etc. but who are we to say...?

P.S. I'm in Melbourne too - hi!

 

[x_files]

The Chinese media is covering this much more than the Western counterparts.

Here is the water tower....inside....after the body was removed....

http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws...assets/1361522177320201302220032556_46318.jpg

More graffiti images of the water tower...a better perspective:

http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws...assets/1361522179123201302220032567_46318.jpg

Courtesy of Chinese newspaper World Journal: http://www.worldjournal.com/view/full_news/21788016/article-藍可兒命案-酒店四水塔-頂蓋都未蓋?instance=hota

It appears from the interview on Chinese television, for those that understand Cantonese, Elisa does have a blog...and would update their friends on it.

http://www.ktsf.com/friend-of-elisa-lam-thinks-lam-was-drugged/

A bit OT, but just it seems a lot of strange coincidences like the LAM Elisa test, FYI......Elisa's Chinese name is &#34253;&#21487;&#20818; and while "&#34253;" is her surname literally meaning the colour blue, "&#21487;&#20818;" makes the same pronunciation as "suspicious". This is certainly suspicious.

Does anyone know what "Fecto **** Her Suma" mean? I am reading strange, strange things online what it means in Spanish.
Fecto: Perfecto? Really. Extreme
or Infected?
Suma: Summit; high.

 

[Livvy]

I read in Elisa's tumblr formspring that she has never been out of North America, so I assume she is Canadian born. This is for all who were wondering and only correct if that really is Elisa Lam's tumblr account.

http://www.formspring.me/mariniere

 

[yrmfp]

Ive seen the elevator video and have been silently following.She did seem playful at first but it changed fairly quickly.I wonder if maybe someone had "flirted " with her and she was kind of flattered but then realized it wasnt simply a flirt but that she was in danger?? Just a thought obviously.

 

[LittleWing]

Hi,

I've only been following this case for a few days, this is my first time posting here, but here are my thoughts:

I'm naturally a skeptic so I want to see strong evidence of something before I run with it. In this case the big leap that hasn't been made (please point me to the evidence if you have seen it and I missed it -- there are a lot of posts here to go through!) is going from this being a single-person accident/suicide to the involvement of a second person.

Absolutely! No one really knows, we're just speculating and biding time until more information is released really

I guess many of us feel there is a strong possibility someone else was involved due to the sheer unlikelihood that she managed to do all of that while a. Possibly having a psychotic episode and b. without even her glasses on. As others have mentioned before, if she were indeed in psychosis wouldn't one think her behaviour would be even less rational? I dunno!

Also, accident seems incredibly unlikely as how does one accidentally fall directly into a small mouth on top of a cistern (that's assuming the cover was off)?

IMO, it's just as much of a stretch to believe it was an accidental or intentional suicide, simply because of the cistern. if she had her skull cracked and was lying in the shower ok maybe she slipped and cracked her head. It's our perspectives that shape what we feel we're viewing in the CCTV footage. Some are convinced its her losing her mind, others are convinced she's terrified.






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[x_files]

I just looked at the meds her "doctors" had her on. I'm absolutely disgusted. It seems she got the classic cop-out diagnosis of bipolar (although I don't see where it says if she was I, II or NOS) along with depression and ADHD. This diagnosis drives me crazy (pun unintentional, but noted and left anyway.) Three out of the four medications she was on could trigger mania - effexor (an SNRI anti-depressant), wellbutrin (an atypical anti-depressant) and adderall (a straight up amphetamine.)

Bipolar disorder has become a catch all diagnosis as of late, particularly in women. So many of the DSM criteria are subjective, especially in a regimented society. What one doctor can call "impulsive" behavior, another could simply think was the result of a whimsical personality. Also, while ADHD can in theory be comorbid with bipolar disorder, ADHD and depression are on the differential for bipolar. Also, classic symptoms like "sexual indiscretion" are FAR more likely to be applied to women than to men. How many partners makes a woman sexually indiscrete as opposed to a man?


If this turns out to be a suicide or an accident, I hope her doctor(s) undergo serious scrutiny.

That cocktail of drugs alone could cause mania, insomnia and other off behavior! I have friends on similar and they act like they are meth-heads but it's all legal scripts.

 

[fred&edna]

May this was posted already?

"Cecil Hotel closed on Saturday for repairing of water pipes and will reopen on next Tuesday."

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/763710.shtml

 

[kenmore]

Hi,
In this case the big leap that hasn't been made (please point me to the evidence if you have seen it and I missed it -- there are a lot of posts here to go through!) is going from this being a single-person accident/suicide to the involvement of a second person.

You are correct. To this point, there is no clear-cut evidence that a second person was involved in Elisa's disappearance and death, at least none that LE has been willing to share with the public. For a while, some insisted that she could not possibly have gone onto the roof without a key and ability to disengage the alarm, but this thread has posted photos of the roof showing it is accessible via fire escape, as well as videos taken by hotel guests who apparently made it onto the roof, not to mention graffiti in the published photos of the water tank. The apparent difficulty in carrying a dead body to the top of the water tank and sliding it into a small opening --and doing it on a rooftop that is very visible from lots of taller, surrounding buildings--has also been pretty well mapped out.

We have also uncovered social media posts by Elisa and someone who knew her that indicate an erratic and somewhat unstable personality, as well as her documented solicitation of the Internet for "meet-ups" prior to her fateful trip.

I think if there is an answer to what happened to Elisa, it lies on her phone or in her e-mail account or computer, or maybe even in a social media account we haven't uncovered yet. I'm guessing--no, hoping--that LE was able to get these pieces of information from her friends and family and already has zeroed in people who might have been with Elisa that night. It is extremely plausible to think she had someone come to meet her at the hotel that night, probably someone she had never met before. It is also plausible--and this is where the video comes in more than ever--that something lead Elisa to start listening to the voices in her head, the voices her social media posts indicate have caused her trouble in the past. And that she was listening by herself, and no one was there to help her.

 

[BuzzieCat]

A comment about her eyesight: I'm 3/4 of the way to legally blind, and without my glasses, I would have clearly been able to see which button was my floor number, and which one was the door hold button, at the distance her face was from the buttons. I also have a friend who is about 7/8 of the way to legally blind, and I'm sure she would be able to make out the buttons if her head was 6" to a foot away as well.

Also, if I was being followed, and I was blind as a bat, I would make damn sure I put my head 1 inch away from the buttons to ensure I pressed the right floor number and make triple sure I did not press 'door hold.' I don't think she pushed all the buttons due to poor vision.

This is my experience also. I also am severely nearsighted, but even without corrective lenses I would be able to see the buttons clearly if I put my nose right up to them. I'd be able to tell if I hit "door hold," as long as I had my face right up to the panel.

ETA: I read all the time without my glasses - I just hold the book/Kindle right up to my face. But I wouldn't be able to see much of anything if it's more than about 3 inches from my eyes. I'd never dream of wandering around a hotel or other unfamiliar place without my corrective lenses, I'd soon be lost and wouldn't be able to see if someone was nearby, certainly wouldn't be able to see anything out the windows or from the rooftop. Which is another thing that indicates clouded thinking to me - her not wearing her glasses...unless of course she had her contacts on and was just peering closely at the elevator panel for some other reason.

 

[kenmore]

I read in Elisa's tumblr formspring that she has never been out of North America, so I assume she is Canadian born. This is for all who were wondering and only correct if that really is Elisa Lam's tumblr account.

http://www.formspring.me/mariniere

Please refer to my earlier post in this thread in which I give point-by-point evidence that the Tumblr belongs to Elisa.

 

[Dr Hua Sheng]

I also do not really believe the poster who said she might be planning a suicide and therefore did it this way to avoid bringing shame to her family. That to me, seems very far-fetched. Not even a modern Asian girl from Hong Kong or say, Singapore today cares that much about "honour" to a family to the extent of planning a suicide this way! I mean come on. Even when I was Elisa's age (that was nearly 20 years ago, and I'm revealing my age, lol) I did not care that much about family "honour" when I was depressed and just wanted out of my life by travelling abroad when I could. The depression and the sense that I had to get out of my old life was so strong that it eclipsed anything else in my life - family "honour" being one of my last priorities at that point. I can't speak for her, but if she was so depressed, it makes sense that she would not have cared that much about family "honour" to want to plan an elaborate suicide (crossing a continent, finding a hotel with a water tank, working out how to use that tank to die?!) . Especially if relations between her and her family were not that great. From her Tumblr posts (and it does seem like it is hers) it sounds like she is not feeling her family understands her well. Also people like that normally leave a suicide note, don't they? If it was planned? But she didn't leave a suicide note at all, or at least it's not been reported. So I don't know, just a guess, but I just think this was not a suicide.

Firstly, who knows, right?

Secondly, I don't know if it was murder or suicide, I don't know if she was on drugs (self-administered / or drugged) or if she was having a mental break down.


Thirdly, suicide is a complex issue, right? Who knows what private reason (hell) people suffer to make that - usually reasoned rather than reactionary - decision.

Fourthly, I know many girls who have total respect for their families, to the extent that parents dictate marriage partners and careers - and they go along with that. You don't know, right? I don't know. Just because you didn't care about your family - and you seem to be ABC - doesn't mean you can extrapolate. you're an ABC and you think you have some kind of psychic link to billions of Chinese in this world? &#31070;&#32463;&#30149;&#65281;

Finally, as I stated in the original post - I'm just putting an idea out there: you know, brainstorming.

I still think (it is possible that) the trip to the hotel was pre-planned. I think she had a reason to go there. The more I watch the video the more it looks staged. I think there is no sign of trauma on the body that would indicate foul-play (hence the continued autopsy etc). The Police clearly think suicide is a possibility.- but, who knows? I don't.

 

[LittleWing]

I agree; and as I've said before on this forum, it's dehumanising/belittling of anyone to assume a situation involving the demise of someone who is mentally ill is a consequence of their mental state. Just because she has been diagnosed with something doesn't mean suicide is on her mind - it's just one of those 'things', I don't think I've ever known someone my age who hasn't had the thought of suicide cross their mind (even those who aren't considered 'mentally ill'). Being a young person can be stressful at times, especially if she was restless in her routine. At most, her mental state may have kept her up all night (some medication does this too) and that's why she was walking around etc. but who are we to say...?

P.S. I'm in Melbourne too - hi!

So agree x100!! So tired of the stigma of having mental health issues.Im willing to wager that most with mental health issues who still have their wits about them, IMO, probably mostly just wish things were different for them. Some of them see "death" as a way to stop the difficulty. Some don't. They try medication, or CBT, etc and shuffle on. From her tumblr, Elisa seemed like a shuffler-on. Of course of this I can't be certain, but from her posts she mentioned just passing the days away instead of resorting to a violent self inflicted end. I'm guessing she had enough interests and enjoyment in life to not feel pushed to the edge.

Of course we don't know what might have happened between then and now. All speculation!

It seems as though she has a tendency to run away when stressed, maybe to change perspectives etc. as in a post earlier where her friend on reddit said she's disappeared before. Might be her way to cope with her issues, with pressure, etc.

I'm just babbling now time for bed lol!

Hello littlekitten!I think I saw you on reddit! I love kittens :0) it's nice to know I'm not the only wacko up at 4 am on a crime forum! Lol!




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