CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #2

[hopeitcanhelp]

Please have a look at my post here if you haven't, I analyze all her body language during the video, and also offer an explanation for pushing multiple buttons on her first entry and why she was not on her floor:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8917541&postcount=326"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #2[/ame]

 

[Marlon]

I wish i knew her date of birth!
something tells me it is July or August....?
Anyone found this out?

(Oh gawd i feel like a postmortem internetstalker)

 

[manlet]

It is extremely plausible to think she had someone come to meet her at the hotel that night, probably someone she had never met before.

The hotel doesn't allow you to have a guest outside of the lobby area. They're very strict that no guests can go up past the elevator/stairs and have 24/7 security guards watching the elevator/stairs/camera footage due to what has happened in the past at the hotel.

One of the reviews on Yelp: "Awful place! Just got escorted out by security because I was visiting a friend in a room. Apparently there's NO VISITORS ALLOWED ANY TIME. They told me I had to just show my ID downstairs and I would be fine. And then they told me I had to leave and wouldn't even let me go back for my bag!"

 

[hopeitcanhelp]

Elisa Lam Video - YouTube

Now just a reminder, who do you think is monitoring the CCTV cameras all around the hotel at night, especially the CCTV camera inside the elevator Elisa Lam was in?

The security guards. It was probably the same people who she was talking to in the CCTV video at 1:56 before she stepped out of the camera for the last time. They must of been concerned by watching Elisa's strange behavior through the CCTV camera on the elevator, while observing in the security monitor room -- as well as noticing how the elevator wasn't working and went to dispatch a security guard to check up on her.


Also, security staff at the Cecil Hotel would also have access to restricted areas, such as for example:

The locked door leading to the rooftops which is also armed with a alarm trigger that rings continuously when the door is opened -- unless you have a special key to insert in the alarm to disable it before opening the door. The rooftops don't have CCTV cameras up there by the way.



Any theories anybody here wants to repeat on how Elisa Lam could of gotten up the rooftops?

The problem with this is it means the security guard would have likely come from the other elevator, not the stairs (unless he was on the floor just below, but I really doubt the staff there would have communicated with one another this quickly). There are reviews that say only one of the elevators work. Maybe it was fixed since then, but why wouldn't Elisa go in the other elevator once the guard arrives, instead of going back by herself in the same elevator and the guard never having a look at it?

I think the person came from the corner past the other elevator.

 

[x_files]

Edit: And I would strongly argue in the most emphatic sense, that regardless if you are independent or not, bar/clubbing in any major city is out of the norm.

I am extremely independent and would not ever go to a nightclub alone. Working at a nightclub in a major city I cannot say this is the norm either. At rock show maybe, but still not the norm at all. Single women usually go in groups and meet up with other singles.
If it's your neighborhood tavern or pub and you live within a block or too, I did meet up with friends that way, but never after dark and walk alone.
It's possible Elisa did do this though.
(It's very dangerous and would not recommend it to a teen or a woman of any age.)

 

[anansie]

I am extremely independent and would not ever go to a nightclub alone. Working at a nightclub in a major city I cannot say this is the norm either. At rock show maybe, but still not the norm at all. Single women usually go in groups and meet up with other singles.
If it's your neighborhood tavern or pub and you live within a block or too, I did meet up with friends that way, but never after dark and walk alone.
It's possible Elisa did do this though.
(It's very dangerous and would not recommend it to a teen or a woman of any age.)

When I was travelling in the West on my own as a young single Asian female, I did not go to clubs alone. I just didn't feel I was sociable or street smart enough to do that. But I did meet up with friends of friends from Asia who happen to be studying in the West, who would take me to clubs - sometimes underground raves and stuff. That was back in the early 2000s.. late 1990s. And I clearly remember this one girl, from the same country as mine, who had been studying in the West (sorry for referencing "the West" all the time but I don't want to reveal too much specific personal information on a public forum) for 2 years, who told me she went to clubs on her own all the time. She was dead smart though, an Oxford scholar, and very very street smart, took recreational drugs and had contacts to score them, knew who to get them from, etc. She is not living in the West anymore now, but making good money back in Asia in a corporate job. She took me to a good few underground rave clubs. I tried out some drugs with her looking out for me. She wasn't particularly very pretty for Asian standards, she even admitted that, but guys (especially Western guys) loved her. She wouldn't let any other than the best looking ones go with her though. She could have them for breakfast - she was so smart. She had lots of flings...broke a few hearts. so FYI it can be done, it may be a little unusual though. And Elisa I'm afraid doesn't strike me as the same sort of girl like my friend. Coupled with mental issues, it makes Elisa a very easy target for predators I'm afraid.

 

[shmip]

I'm actually very surprised that so many people think Elisa's death was a suicide due to a mental breakdown or drug overdose (certainly not a voluntary suicide). That seems to me to be forcing an explanation since it absolves the need to explain the person's behaviour or actions.

So while I think it's possible for her to have been experiencing some mental breakdown or was drugged in the elevator video (I'm unconvinced of this at the moment), her death is likely to be directly caused by someone else.

 

[x_files]

If you're travelling by yourself, going out to a bar or a club to see a band is not out of the ordinary. For someone like her, who was not afraid of being alone (sleeping in airports overnight by herself, travelling to urban areas by herself), going to a bar alone is not a stretch. That's what I meant.

If the tumblr in fact is hers she mentions she afraid to leave her room, leave her house and now she goes on an international road trip by Greyhound/public transportation by herself?
When I was 21 and fiercely independent I would have taken a traveling buddy (safety in numbers) and been to nervous to travel/site see all alone. I tend to be a loner even. In your own hometown I think it would be another story though.
I wonder if the cocktail of new scripts made her restless and she embarked on it in a state of mania, then started to regret traveling alone. (thinking out loud here).
Nightclubbing in a smaller college town is pretty intimidating let alone LA!

 

[kenmore]

That cocktail of drugs alone could cause mania, insomnia and other off behavior! I have friends on similar and they act like they are meth-heads but it's all legal scripts.

Are there any medical sources that back this up? I know we don't know she was on the cocktail at the time of her trip, but if we can verify she had ingested drugs (and she did post photos of the pills side by side so I'd I'd say very strong possibility she took them) within 9 months that could lead to mania, then it becomes much less of a leap to think she went on the roof alone, got confused, and started climbing things.

 

[BuzzieCat]

The hotel doesn't allow you to have a guest outside of the lobby area. They're very strict that no guests can go up past the elevator/stairs and have 24/7 security guards watching the elevator/stairs/camera footage due to what has happened in the past at the hotel.

One of the reviews on Yelp: "Awful place! Just got escorted out by security because I was visiting a friend in a room. Apparently there's NO VISITORS ALLOWED ANY TIME. They told me I had to just show my ID downstairs and I would be fine. And then they told me I had to leave and wouldn't even let me go back for my bag!"

Do they restrict guests in the Cecil part of the hotel, I wonder?

 

[kenmore]

If the tumblr in fact is hers she mentions she afraid to leave her room, leave her house and now she goes on an international road trip by Greyhound/public transportation by herself?
When I was 21 and fiercely independent I would have taken a traveling buddy (safety in numbers) and been to nervous to travel/site see all alone. I tend to be a loner even. In your own hometown I think it would be another story though.
I wonder if the cocktail of new scripts made her restless and she embarked on it in a state of mania, then started to regret traveling alone. (thinking out loud here).
Nightclubbing in a smaller college town is pretty intimidating let alone LA!

She says in her Tumblr bio that she was diagnosed bipolar. I'm not a psychiatrist, but I know the basic definition of bipolar personality disorder is extreme highs and lows when it comes to mood. The friends and mentors interviewed after her death cover her "high" side: full of energy and life, talkative, outgoing, an infectious zest for the world around her. Her Tumblr covers more of her "low" side: staying in bed for days, feeling worthless, feeling helpless. To surmise she wrapped up a "low" period in December, then suddenly wanted to take this big ambitious trip and work on a farm seems pretty on-point with her supposed condition to me.

 

[BuzzieCat]

I agree; and as I've said before on this forum, it's dehumanising/belittling of anyone to assume a situation involving the demise of someone who is mentally ill is a consequence of their mental state. Just because she has been diagnosed with something doesn't mean suicide is on her mind - it's just one of those 'things', I don't think I've ever known someone my age who hasn't had the thought of suicide cross their mind (even those who aren't considered 'mentally ill'). Being a young person can be stressful at times, especially if she was restless in her routine. At most, her mental state may have kept her up all night (some medication does this too) and that's why she was walking around etc. but who are we to say...?

P.S. I'm in Melbourne too - hi!

Respectfully disagree that it is dehumanizing or belittling someone to at least consider that they might have died because of mental illness. It does sometimes happen. Some people do commit suicide, it does happen. Even if drowning as a method of suicide sounds like an unpleasant and difficult way to die, some people do it. I'm not saying suicide is the only possibility in this case, but it is one possibility. It could also have been an accident caused by her being in a confused mental state. Or she ran into a lowlife.

Really anything at all is possible, suicide, murder, accident. We don't have any way of knowing. I'm just haunted by the way she acts in the elevator video.

 

[SCHMAE]

After reading her own words via tumblr about her being very energetic, very animated and very talkative to the point that some people thought she was TOO much so , I find the video makes more sense. That may just be her nature. And let's be honest, when you know you are alone in a hall or elevator or room, you may very well sing or hum or hop or skip or do things you might not normally do, especially if you are young and having fun and full of zest !

 

[x_files]

The game Left 4 Dead is mentioned on her Tumblr. I don't know anything about it, but by searching on Google I learned a bit more. It is very violent and apparently it is set in an apartment and you can climb on the fire escapes, use elevators, access the rooftop, etc.

This leaves open the possibility that she was having some sort of break from reality or vivid dream and thought that she was playing the game, especially if she played it frequently in real life. One part of the description under the "No Mercy Campaign The Apartments" of this page is especially spooky to me, especially if you watch the YouTube video and how similar the layout of the rooftop is to the one in the game (of course this could be said for thousands of city rooftops I'm sure):

http://www.mahalo.com/left-4-dead-walkthrough/

"1.You start off on the rooftop of an apartment building. Grab either the pump-action shotgun or the submachine gun and a health pack in front of you. It's really personal preference on which one to take, either weapon will serve you well.

2.Head through the door on the center of the roof and down the stairs.

3.Note: You can also jump down the skylight directly behind the weapons cabinet into the apartment, but doing so leads to a greater risk of being surrounded by zombies as soon as you land."

Here is the YouTube video of gameplay on the apartment roof (warning, graphic video game violence):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SQVuiRWEiRc#!

Is it possible that she thought the opening on top of the water tank was a skylight behind the weapons cabinet on the rooftop? Could she have removed the cover and jumped in, thinking that was a shortcut into this fantasy apartment in the game she was "playing" in her mind?

It could also be that she was "playing" this game on the elevator and thought there were zombies or teammates nearby her, hence her strange behaviors on the elevator.

If she was found with her clothes on and the cover on the tank was already removed, I would think this "video game fantasy" could be a slight possibility.

If she was found without her clothes on and/or the cover on the tank was in place, I would think the possibility of foul play and being placed in the tank by someone else is much more likely. LE obviously knows more about the condition of her body and the location of the tank cover than they are releasing to the public, so we are only left to speculate about those details.

Did she roleplay or cosplay ever? Paintball? Maybe she met up with other gamer "geeks" and was playing on the roof drunk or on drugs that night?

 

[hopeitcanhelp]

From this pic, you can see the ladder that leads on top of the elevator / maintenance building that is next to the water tower.

One can simply climb the ladder, assuming he is carrying a duffel / body bag and then jump down from the top of the elevator / maintenance building to the top of the water tower.

Assuming this would be at night when everyone is sleeping as likely not to get caught.

I'm assuming its illegal to lock fire escapes...because they are there for that purpose? To escape during a fire...., so I'm safely assuming that the ladders leading up to the roof are all accessible right?

Again I find it near impossible that someone would have managed to bring the body up there on their own. It would seem more likely that she went there herself, and if she didn't go in the tank herself, someone killed her on top of there and put her inside.

Now, a seemingly stupid theory, but what if.....

Elisa didn't want to take a shower in the communal ones, out of fear, so she ended up thinking should wash herself in there?

I know that sounds like an incredibly dumb idea, doubt anyone would think of that or do it, but I don't know. Just trying to figure out how she may have gotten there.

Did the police ever reveal if her clothes were found on the roof?

 

[Marlon]

Again I find it near impossible that someone would have managed to bring the body up there on their own. It would seem more likely that she went there herself, and if she didn't go in the tank herself, someone killed her on top of there and put her inside.

Now, a seemingly stupid theory, but what if.....

Elisa didn't want to take a shower in the communal ones, out of fear, so she ended up thinking should wash herself in there?

I know that sounds like an incredibly dumb idea, doubt anyone would think of that or do it, but I don't know. Just trying to figure out how she may have gotten there.

Did the police ever reveal if her clothes were found on the roof?

With the scenarios described before about it being medical/mental, really anything unbelievable is possible so it is not a crazy idea at all.

 

[kingsway]

Hi,

I've only been following this case for a few days, this is my first time posting here, but here are my thoughts:

I'm naturally a skeptic so I want to see strong evidence of something before I run with it. In this case the big leap that hasn't been made (please point me to the evidence if you have seen it and I missed it -- there are a lot of posts here to go through!) is going from this being a single-person accident/suicide to the involvement of a second person.

Until I see or hear of some positive evidence of this second person, my best guess as to what happened is: young woman known to have mental health issues (self-admitted) has breakdown (which we see on the elevator), finds her way to the roof (even if alarm was set off, in a seedy place like this I bet alarms go off all the time and get ignored) and into the water tank where she drowns. What it would take to consider a second person is: evidence of homicide from the autopsy (not yet forthcoming, but we'll see), evidence from video or eyewitnesses of this second person, or a conclusive statement that there is no way she could have gotten into that tank by herself in the manner in which she was found (e.g. if lid had to be closed/replaced from outside, and was found as such.)

Interesting case though, eh?

If the lid was open, someone would have spotted her body during the rooftop check. If it was closed, Elisa would not have been able to close it by herself without a foot on the ground.

Then you look at motive and location. There are a multitude of ways to kill oneself. She easily could have jumped out of her window, off the roof, or hidden in the woods. She bought gifts the day before, and she was planning on resuming her trip.

It's not a "huge" jump. Hardly a jump at all.

 

[shmip]

Please have a look at my post here if you haven't, I analyze all her body language during the video, and also offer an explanation for pushing multiple buttons on her first entry and why she was not on her floor:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #2

Your mention of the 'Travel Crime Prevention Tips' is helpful in understanding why someone may intentionally press multiple buttons in the elevator. It would apply where someone else was already inside the elevator or someone else was going into the elevator with you. In Elisa's case, the latter may apply as I think she was expecting or luring someone to enter the elevator.

The "leap" may be over-analyzed as I think it was just a move to re-balance herself due to leaning forward too much while focusing on something on the left.

Afterwards, she may have had a conversation with someone while standing outside, but she seems to be mainly waiting (still expecting someone to come). When she comes back in, her reaction is more like a "whatever/I don't care" due to waiting for so long for a particular person. She then presses the same initial buttons repeatedly with the intention of going back out afterwards.

When she does the hand motions and the counting/cracking knuckles, she may be communicating to someone on the right.

 

[Robert White]

This thread is seriously taking up all my time! So fascinating.

Just caught up on the last few pages since I went to bed. Just some random thoughts on the posts since in no particular order.

Respectfully, I disagree that speaking about suicide and mental health is playing upon a negative stigma. I believe it essential in this case. At the moment, nothing should be ruled out unless there is quantitative evidence to do so. An example of this is when I have listened to personnel of the Israeli Airport Security teams. They will tell you the only effective way to keep infrastructure safe is to profile (racially/religiously). And unfortunately, we are doing the same based off the little information we have. And while I cannot say she was suffering from mental episodes, it has been mentioned in the previous thread by our health/psychology members that it their professional opinion that she was. And we should all strongly take into account their assessment.

In regards to whether the video should be continually assessed. Its an open forum, and a lot of good ideas have come out of it. Part of the brain storming process is to put your ideas out there and have them built upon or refuted. As with Kenmore, I do agree that it has become redundant to constantly back track instead of building upon known member theories, but it would be quite a task to compile them all and number them for reference! I do believe that without more to go on, the video does become purely speculative, and we are at the stage in our "sleuthing" where we are now becoming "self believing" rather than what the evidence really shows (due to time passing, and lack of new evidence to go on). But as I said before, let's keep going and build and refute.

Eyesight. I wear corrective lenses, or contacts when I am in the field. From a personal experience, I would never walk around an area that I have not reconned and made safe. Especially if I were by myself. Again I must urge members to consider the whole video. Right before her initial button press, you can see her over exaggerated movements, where she arcs her right arm to press. If you had trouble seeing, you make the quickest path possible, and not the one Elisa took.

Edit: In regards to her killing herself via drowning. Its been a very long time since I've taken part in any statistics for suicide. So this will have to be verified via our health care members. However, if I recall correctly, suicide by drowning is exceptionally rare. Due to all that science stuff, you can't actually drown yourself without assistance, ie. weights, otherwise you'll keep popping back up. She was found naked, and no media reports have shown weight attachments, which means nothing to weigh her down. As we all know, inhaling water into your lungs is extremely painful. Try dying like that - you'll likely quit before you die unless something is keeping you submerged.

 

[x_files]

There are metal grated doors on the windows for those staying in hotel rooms situated with a fire escape next to it.

I have one report saying they are locked and can only be open with a key by staff (or smashed open), and another report saying you just simply slide the metal grate open.

Here's what I mean

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlnOqmzwZuQ"]Cecil Hotel- downtown Los Angeles CA - YouTube[/ame]

Fast forward to 2:05[/QUOTE]

If someone kicked upon the grate on her window to attack her or to kick out to remove her body, that would be loud enough to wake the downstairs neighbor.
The flooding caused by flushing evidence down the drain. Rags, gloves, clothes, wallet, etc...