CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #3

[Sillybilly]

What do you mean?

How can we apply a brand new mental state to a victim, with no history of such psychosis and no indicators of psychosis up to that point?

She could have been in any state in the world for all we know.

Do you mean as a possible reason why she would crawl into the tank? I mean I guess its possible....but I'm not sure I'm in total agreement.

I more inclined to believe her state (ambien sleepwalking) made her a target.

<bbm>

Has it been established as fact that Elisa was "ambien sleepwalking", or is this only your opinion?

 

[ThinkHard]

I suggest that it is quite a flight of fancy to think we (or anyone, incl any expert in anything) can identify Elisa as being psychotic, manic, on prescription or street drugs--let alone specific ones, like Ambien--based on her actions in the elevator video. We gotta sober up!

This board is about proposing theories, based on collected information about the victim and the crime, and combining those with our experiences and frame of reference.

This board IS about speculating on possibilities. And I think it is a VERY strong possibility that she was on ambien. I have plenty of personal and professional experience for believing this. That does not make it fact. But to me at least the idea is quite high on a probability scale.

Please don't shut people down from speculating. It is not productive.

 

[ThinkHard]

<bbm>

Has it been established as fact that Elisa was "ambien sleepwalking", or is this only your opinion?

Of course only my opinion. As is any of our theories on this board.

 

[silsby]

This board has been less than civil for a while now. Why? Could we all be a little nicer? Nobody's theory is probably anywhere near 100% correct, because we have such scant evidence. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to get mad at theories/put down people/get defensive. This is why I prefer to stay mostly in the shadows, because I don't want to get pounced upon and feel bad about my ideas.:truce:

That said, wouldn't it be lovely, and potentially less agonizing/frustrating to know more?!

P.S. This is not a passive aggressive grievance to any one user in particular! Just wanted to make that clear

 

[SCHMAE]

First off I want to be made perfectly clear whatever happened to Elisa is a tragedy, an absolute horrifying tragedy and I'm very sad for her family and it's made even worse by the fact that the circumstances have made her the butt of many jokes I'm sure. She's going to be remember with ugly terms rather than beautiful terms and that's really sad

I do not think anyone carried her up the stairs, the fire escapes etc. I think she either went in on her own accidentally or was coerced or convinced to go in. I don't think there's anyone who could make that trek while carrying her , against her will or unconscious, without bumping her somewhere. So someone or possibly a group of someones may have convinced her to get in there for a game or a thrill or a swim or some reason that she thought was ok. The only other option I can see for her putting herself in there is psychosis. If someone real or imagined was after her, that might have looked like a good place to hide.
When talking about her speaking at the book store to people, what was the word used? ' inappropriately' ? She was speaking inappropriately to patrons of the store? Is that right? That does not sound like mania to me . I wish one of those people would say what exactly that means because it's an odd word to use.

 

[OCSlacker]

This board is about proposing theories, based on collected information about the victim and the crime, and combining those with our experiences and frame of reference.

This board IS about speculating on possibilities. And I think it is a VERY strong possibility that she was on ambien. I have plenty of personal and professional experience for believing this. That does not make it fact. But to me at least the idea is quite high on a probability scale.

Please don't shut people down from speculating. It is not productive.

One minor flaw with the sleepwalking/ambien theory is that normally a person has a history of sleepwalking. Wouldn't that have been released when the video was released. Would LE have made a statement saying that it was possible, due to a past history that she could be sleepwalking in the video. Also with ambien, she lived at home and if she had been prescribed the drug in the past wouldn't her parents have been aware of her strange behavior while on ambien. If she has been taking it for a length of time the chances that it induces sleepwalking for her don't seem likely or her parents would have said something. Does anyone know for certain what sleeping pills she was prescribed if any?

 

[ThinkHard]

Are you asserting your "expert" opinions as a professional psychologist and neurologist? If so, you need to get verified by Websleuths.

Professional Posters & Verified Locals/Insiders - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Thanks for the advise. i prefer to keep my anonymity, and because of that, you can take what i say as you wish.

I do not practice psychology or psychiatry, but I hold graduate degrees in related fields, and as far as work, I focus more on research in nueropsych and brain development, and work with children with various types of developmental, psychiatric, and learning disorders.

 

[margarita25]

If there was foul play, there is a long list of potential suspects, many of whom can even can be named. I can name at least 5. This is not even counting staff!

 

[BuzzieCat]

People with bipolar disorder when having a manic episode do not just go wandering around aimlessly for days on city streets.

Sometimes they leave, but it is with a purpose. In college I had lunch plans with a friend, she missed them, and I couldn't get through to her, when she finally called me back it was to say she had gotten on a plane to go visit an aunt in Florida for a few days. Just spontaneously decided to go, gt herself to an airport, purchased ticket, and boarded plane. In her hippo mania this spontaneous idea made perfect sense to her.

My point is when they leave its with purpose, they don't just get confused and wander around a city for days. It's a hyper focused, hyper spontaneous, state, not a confused and forgetful one.

To me she did look confused in the video, but of course that's just my opinion. It keeps sticking with me that she very likely hit the "door hold" button and then couldn't figure out why the elevator wouldn't go. After she checked for people in the hallway possibly holding up the elevator, she should have been able to figure out that perhaps all the buttons she pressed messed something up. Instead, she continued to wait around and hit more buttons.

ETA: I am also going on the assumption that there was actually no one out in the hallway. Again, just my speculation.

 

[PopeReal]

I love everyone's input. If she was in an altered state of mind I agree with ThinkHard that it just made her an easier target. I don't believe some people's assertions around the internet that drugged/psychosis/bipolar/whatever means she climbed into a water tank and drowned. We still have to figure out how she got up there in the first place.

She was most certainly placed there. Either out of panic or from a more calculated line of thought.

 

[ThinkHard]

One minor flaw with the sleepwalking/ambien theory is that normally a person has a history of sleepwalking. Wouldn't that have been released when the video was released. Would LE have made a statement saying that it was possible, due to a past history that she could be sleepwalking in the video. Also with ambien, she lived at home and if she had been prescribed the drug in the past wouldn't her parents have been aware of her strange behavior while on ambien. If she has been taking it for a length of time the chances that it induces sleepwalking for her don't seem likely or her parents would have said something. Does anyone know for certain what sleeping pills she was prescribed if any?

No we certainly do not know for certain, if she was on sleeping pills and if so which ones.

However people who can have sleepwalking episodes on ambien, are not neccasarily people we are sleepwalkers not on ambien.

It is possible that her parents were unaware of what medication she was on.

Additionally her parents have been very mum about everything, including why she was in CA in the first place. According to her own social media they were not supportive of her diagnosis's, so even if she had , had similar episodes back home, I would doubt her parents would make that public.

 

[Robert White]

I do not think anyone carried her up the stairs, the fire escapes etc. I think she either went in on her own accidentally or was coerced or convinced to go in. I don't think there's anyone who could make that trek while carrying her , against her will or unconscious, without bumping her somewhere. So someone or possibly a group of someones may have convinced her to get in there for a game or a thrill or a swim or some reason that she thought was ok. The only other option I can see for her putting herself in there is psychosis. If someone real or imagined was after her, that might have looked like a good place to hide.

Snipped for context.

I think you make some really good points here. Just some points on it. If she was coerced, then really at the end of the day we are speaking about a form of kidnapping (until the death). What would cause Elisa to be coerced? Likely a weapon in my opinion, but it is very possible to do without if there is physical intimidation, so forth. I would argue that if she was coerced, at the moment right before entry, she would likely have known she was going to die (assuming mental state is intact, so forth). Should have been a struggle given my experiences. However, again, not always the case.

At the end of the day, what my experience is asking is why the tank? Were I to do it, I wouldn't put someone alive in a tank. My victim would scream, cry, beg, struggle. All things I can't deal with in an adrenaline state. You are going to want to subdue or incapacitate your victim in some way, but then that's not coercion. You put her in unconscious in a water tank - well that's murder.

While the mental/drug area is not my expertise, entering the tank accidentally/alone willingly can only mean one of the two, no? It is unlikely a rational and logical person would enter the tank, unless of course it was a dare. But then how would she have died? A dare turned tragic? Persons involved too scared to come forward and left the body? Plausible.

Edit: Also the whole naked thing. I'm not sure where this fits in.

 

[ThinkHard]

Speculate away !!

What is not productive is posting something as though it were fact when it is unknown. It is partly for the benefit of others reading the board now and in future to know what is fact, or what is only the opinion of the poster. Thus the need for our common acronyms of JMO or MOO.

It seems there is a concern that you are stating things as though they are established FACT. Had you included the <bbm> part in prior your posts, fine ... otherwise you are stating you are a professional and insinuating you KNOW what Elisa was experiencing, when none of us knows.


JMO

Fair enough. I was pretty sure it was clear it was just my opinion...but if it was confusing to you, it wasnt, I will try to be more clear in that in the future.

Even someone who was registered via webslueths as a professional in that regard could not say with 100 percent certainty anything about elisa from watching that video, its just not possible.

 

[fred&edna]

Just an FYI:

I did email the radio station of the reporter I quoted previously (wrt: nude body found in hotel water tank). I will post the reply IF I receive one.

 

[Theforeigner]

Just had this thought/theorie:

What if some charming man, with bad intentions, courted her and at nightime suggested that they should go up on the roof and look at the stars etc, maybe he even brought somthing to drink/eat? and when they were up there he suggested that they should go even higher up, on the water tank, and there he force her into the water tank or killed her in some other way, and droped her into the watertank.

 

[SCHMAE]

Snipped for context.

I think you make some really good points here. Just some points on it. If she was coerced, then really at the end of the day we are speaking about a form of kidnapping (until the death). What would cause Elisa to be coerced? Likely a weapon in my opinion, but it is very possible to do without if there is physical intimidation, so forth. I would argue that if she was coerced, at the moment right before entry, she would likely have known she was going to die (assuming mental state is intact, so forth). Should have been a struggle given my experiences. However, again, not always the case.

At the end of the day, what my experience is asking is why the tank? Were I to do it, I wouldn't put someone alive in a tank. My victim would scream, cry, beg, struggle. All things I can't deal with in an adrenaline state. You are going to want to subdue or incapacitate your victim in some way, but then that's not coercion. You put her in unconscious in a water tank - well that's murder.

While the mental/drug area is not my expertise, entering the tank accidentally/alone willingly can only mean one of the two, no? It is unlikely a rational and logical person would enter the tank, unless of course it was a dare. But then how would she have died? A dare turned tragic? Persons involved too scared to come forward and left the body? Plausible.

Edit: Also the whole naked thing. I'm not sure where this fits in.

I'm thinking more along the lines of a prank gone wrong . or something like that. But yes that person or persons would be guilty of something whether or not they intended her death. I just for a few days now have been thinking A) psychosis outright all by herself of B ) like a game , a sick game with maybe some other hotel guests and Elisa being the only one 'not in the know' Maybe there's some longer term residents who get their kicks out of solo visitors and I know it sounds far fetched, but it's just a thought. This theory DOES include the elevator... playing grown up hide / seek/ tag/ etc and Elisa is just thinking ' wow these californians are so much fun' and they are just losers on drugs watching her for their entertainment . "
come up here, yeah it's safe, we do it all the time, OMG , look in that big tank " .

 

[Robert White]

Just had this thought/theorie:

What if some charming man, with bad intentions, courted her and at nightime suggested that they should go up on the roof and look at the stars etc, maybe he even brought somthing to drink/eat? and when they were up there he suggested that they should go even higher up, on the water tank, and there he force her into the water tank or killed her in some other way, and droped her into the watertank.

Probably one of the most probable, simplistic theories I've heard so far. I like it.

 

[branwynbreeze]

First off I want to be made perfectly clear whatever happened to Elisa is a tragedy, an absolute horrifying tragedy and I'm very sad for her family and it's made even worse by the fact that the circumstances have made her the butt of many jokes I'm sure. She's going to be remember with ugly terms rather than beautiful terms and that's really sad

I do not think anyone carried her up the stairs, the fire escapes etc. I think she either went in on her own accidentally or was coerced or convinced to go in. I don't think there's anyone who could make that trek while carrying her , against her will or unconscious, without bumping her somewhere. So someone or possibly a group of someones may have convinced her to get in there for a game or a thrill or a swim or some reason that she thought was ok. The only other option I can see for her putting herself in there is psychosis. If someone real or imagined was after her, that might have looked like a good place to hide.
When talking about her speaking at the book store to people, what was the word used? ' inappropriately' ? She was speaking inappropriately to patrons of the store? Is that right? That does not sound like mania to me . I wish one of those people would say what exactly that means because it's an odd word to use.

BBM
Do you have link about her at book store? All I can find is she was fine there. TIA

 

[OCSlacker]

Probably one of the most probable, simplistic theories I've heard so far. I like it.

It could happen but a few things stand out. It would make more sense to go to t he top of the maintenance room than the tanks. He could then lower the body onto the tank.

Also, I just don't see her going in on her own and choosing that tank. Why not the tank with the ladder attached? IMO, she was murdered and then dropped onto that tank, then placed inside. Either the person could not manuever the body to be placed in the tank with the ladder attached and was forced to choose that tank because of The proximity to the maintenance roof, maybe thinking a tank slightly more difficult to reach by someone else might keep it hidden longer if they search the roof. It is possible that the person who hid her body might have picked that tank because the pipes run through it. Perhaps thinking fresh water would be constant in the tank.. I don't know anymore!!! :banghead: . I think the lowering of the body makes the most sense..

 

[summer_breeze]

Knock it off.

I've asked very nicely that we treat everyone and differing opinions kindly and with respect!

Time outs will be issued going forward.

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If you are posting as an individual: it is in your opinion, my own opinion, my 2 cents, etc.

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My heartfelt sympathies to Elisa Lam and her family. The "wait" for these folks must be excruciating!