CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #4

[FutzBucket]

If I'm correct that EL's eyesight was impaired, then I estimate this was how the buttons appeared to her that night.

 

[noodled1]

I just have not seen the photos you have seen apparently of all these cops there. There wasn't even one in the photo you posted on the roof.
Just firemen. There is no proof the person standing on the tank is the coroner. You'd think there would be some that were with the crime scene team directing her removal and as I said before some media present taking photos of the ambulance and the scene at the Cecil.
It seems like it was kind of a big deal to miss. Every single media outlet.

So I guess what's your point?

I'm not getting where you are going.

There's plenty of pics, if you need them that badly. I found you two in the space of 30 seconds on google, there's pics of at least 20 people on the roof half of them are firemen and I'm assuming by the suits the others are detectives.

I'm just not following what you're getting at or what you're suggesting because you haven't seen pics

edit; here's a link knock yourself out
https://www.google.com/search?q=cop...TFtAb9roC4Bw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=685

 

[Sillybilly]

Depends on how shallow the water is.

Brain Dev. 1997 Nov;19(7):499-501.
An autopsy case of bathtub drowning in epilepsy.
Osamura T, Fushiki S, Yoshioka H, Yamanaka T, Mizuta R.
Source

Department of Pediatrics, Kyoto Second Red Cross Hospital, Japan.
Abstract

We report an autopsy case of bathtub drowning in epilepsy. A 26-year-old female with mental retardation had been treated for refractory epilepsy. Her younger sister found her floating supine in the bathtub 45 min after starting bathing. Neuropathological examination revealed cerebral cortical dysplasia in the precentral gyrus of the left hemisphere, which had not been detected by MRI, suggesting the etiology of epilepsy. In bathtub submersion injury of an unidentified cause, neuropathological examination should be performed to reveal any lesion underlying epileptic seizures. Additionally, we present statistics on bathtub submersion injury in children aged 5 years or older in Japan based upon nationwide survey data obtained in 1991. Forty-seven percent of them had associated epilepsy or convulsive attacks and 71% died. It is necessary for epileptic patients and their families to understand that the risk of bathtub drowning can be minimized if proper precautions are taken.

Thanks for that Borris.

IMO, there is a difference between shallow bathtub drownings with still water and those that occur in non-bathtub drownings with changing/moving water levels. By its very size, a bathtub would not lend itself to rotation of the body into the "classic drowning position".

However, maybe we have to forego our previously etched-in-stone beliefs wrt all drowning victims being found face down:

The Washoe County Sheriff’s Department’s Search and Rescue Team arrived at Manzanita Lake at 2:14 a.m. Santos’ body was found at 3:55, floating supine about seven feet below the surface, about 30 feet from the southeast shore of the lake. He was dressed in white undershorts.

from:
http://www.newsreview.com/reno/death-at-manzanita-lake/content?oid=18990

JMO

 

[houndstooth]

If I'm correct that EL's eyesight was impaired, then I estimate this was how the buttons appeared to her that night.

I've seen about as many photos of her wearing glasses as without.
There is no way you know whether or not she wore contacts sometimes or that the glasses were a "hipster" thing. There is a fashion trend to wear clear
lens glasses for "the look".

Anybody who's vision is that poor, would naturally put on their glasses before leaving their room as second nature. The girl in my opinion, other than appearing to be Asian bears no particular resemblance to the photos shown in the media of EL. But, if they tell us this is her, then we are EXPECTED to take their word for it, I guess.

It does beg the question of why the need to blur out the time/date stamp, though.
I don't recall another instance of that before in an intentional release of video.

 

[noodled1]

If I drowned they'd find me on the bottom. I don't float so good...lol

 

[Kaliste]

If I'm correct that EL's eyesight was impaired, then I estimate this was how the buttons appeared to her that night.

Might she have been wearing contacts?

 

[OCSlacker]

In fact, my earlier posts were maintaining the same position you are ... that the classic drowning position is "face down". I also linked to the same forensic article you did through google books. I then found the ARC Lifeguarding Manual that I previously linked to which had reference to a drowning "victim" being either face down or face up ... they were not talking about someone "struggling and near drowning". The specific headings are:

- Distressed Swimmer
- Drowning Victim - Active
- Drowning Victim - Passive

specifically "Drowning Victim - Passive ... face up or face down in water, submerged".

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...sBU-0D&sig=AHIEtbScyjmE2PPpTeGHHVDX2M7qD4nMSg

It's not about me substantiating or refuting my own position and/or yours. It is something that might be worthy of consideration that appears to be somewhat at odds to our established belief.

Haven't had a chance to read through everything posted today. Not sure if this link has been posted but thought it might help.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2005/09/dead_mans_float.html

 

[FutzBucket]

Houndstooth and Kaliste,

Yes, she might have been wearing her contacts, and yes, she might not even need glasses (I can't find anything proving that she actually needed to wear glasses, other than some pics of her wearing glasses), and if she did need glasses, I agree that it's strange that she's walking around without contacts or her glasses.

Yes, it's strange, but it's the only explanation. This is how she ended up on the 14th floor, this is how she didn't know which floor she was on, this is why she kept hitting the "HOLD DOOR" button, this is why she hit all the floors in the middle row, and this is how the killer was able to get her into the water-tank with little trouble.

She was practically blind.

 

[Sillybilly]

If I drowned they'd find me on the bottom. I don't float so good...lol

A bit OT and just for general interest re my own experience with near drowning ..

I had a near drowning experience when i was about 7 y.o. ... just tuckered out swimming between two docks. Apparently i did a bit of floundering around, and sank to the bottom in about 40 feet of water after having been seen going down for the 4th time (not 3rd as is common belief). I was told that i fought one person off in the process of them trying to save me, i have no recollection of that, or of sinking to the bottom, or of being brought up. I do however have a distinct recollection of sitting on the bottom, looking up peacefully, seeing the sun shine down through the water, blades of glass moving through it. Then I remember being on shore, standing up all wobbly-legged and throwing up at the same time.

The man who saved me jumped in fully clothed (Rolex and all). He was an American and his name was Manley. Thank you Manley !! :heartbeat:

 

[noodled1]

Beginnings of a time line of known aspects in this case. Everything below is from media sources quoting the police

Arrived in LA Jan. 26th via LAPD

Checked in to Cecil Hotel Jan 28th, checkout scheduled for Feb 1st via LAPD

Last seen in lobby by hotel staff Jan 31st via LAPD

Last contact with family Jan 31st via Vancouver Police

LAPD go public seek help in locating Elisa Feb 6th

LAPD release video of Elisa in elevator Feb 13

Found in water tank atop Hotel Cecil Feb 19th by hotel worker investigating low water pressure in hotel

What are some more basic questions we need to fill in the blanks?

 

[noodled1]

A bit OT and just for general interest re my own experience with near drowning ..

I had a near drowning experience when i was about 7 y.o. ... just tuckered out swimming between two docks. Apparently i did a bit of floundering around, and sank to the bottom in about 40 feet of water after having been seen going down for the 4th time (not 3rd as is common belief). I was told that i fought one person off in the process of them trying to save me, i have no recollection of that, or of sinking to the bottom, or of being brought up. I do however have a distinct recollection of sitting on the bottom, looking up peacefully, seeing the sun shine down through the water, blades of glass moving through it. Then I remember being on shore, standing up and throwing up at the same time.

The man who saved me jumped in fully clothed (Rolex and all). He was an American and his name was Manley. Thank you Manley !! :heartbeat:

Frightening isn't it? I had a similar experience when I was 5 in a pool. Still remember being at the bottom and seeing my dad come in for me. Took me a few years to go back in the water and never felt comfortable until I took a scuba class in high school.

btw i threw up in my dads Volvo about 30 minutes later

 

[Qrious]

Not to mention all the strange and improbable theories on what was going on in her mind, despite no evidence or past history to back it up:

• seeing ghosts
• typing in bible verse messages using the elevator buttons
• re-enacting a movie scene
• visions of her dead grandfather
• demonic possession
• playing hide-and-seek inside a water tank
• asian "traditional dance"
• staging her own death to look like a murder so her family "wouldn't lose face" (wouldn't be ashamed)

People have wild imaginations.

But until the autopsy is completed, I doubt this case will progress much further, and imagination is all we have to go by.

Not to dispute what you've said but to be fair, nothing is conclusive about the cause of death or whether it was foul play or accidental, and because everyone has little to work on except the strange video, it is understandable that many then feel that finding a neat explanation to the video may be the key to unlocking the mystery.

I'm new here having been to other sites before discovering that the posts here are generally well-informed and of better logic. You do see quite many real stupid and uninformed posts at other places, but none here. All the posts here, be they postulating foul play, drug induction, conspiracy, demonic possession or whatever, do give some reasonable basis for their line of thinking.

Granted some may get over-imaginative or zealous in their postulations. But one must understand that we are all in a situation where we are trying our best working on very little to unravel this great mystery (and I can see that quite many have become obsessed with it too). So, when we come across a discovery or thought that we strongly feel might be of relevance, do we post it for the critical examination and comments of all here, or do we say "hang on, this may not go down well with others so I better not post it"? And if enough people chose the latter, will we not risk losing information that might turn out to be critical?

Stick to the facts. Yes, but what facts? Facts to something deemed acceptable, yes; facts to something not deemed acceptable, no?

For every over-imaginative postulation on the wild side, I have also read an over-imaginative postulation on the foul-play side. Given the understandable excitement that everyone is in, would it not be better to have some latitude both ways? What I do when I come across a post that I find unhelpful is simply to skip to the next post.

Just asking for a little tolerance sort of, without derailing the purpose of this thread.

 

[medsleuth]

That's a great idea. Even if things were that blurry to her - she would figure out the floors are in a section above the buttons with other functions. My contention is that she pressed the buttons in the middle column because she had a notion that it would cause an unusual behavior in the elevator. She was purposeful in what she pressed.

If I'm correct that EL's eyesight was impaired, then I estimate this was how the buttons appeared to her that night.

 

[Figuring]

Yes, it apparently is in North Burnaby, which is actually quite a ways from Vancouver itself. Not sure why that's relevant though? :waitasec:

Just meant to say this coincidence is not a meaningful connection.

I have seen some references to the same names appearing in different places, or even anagrams! These are maybe interesting, but not very meaningful connections, IMO.

 

[Figuring]

Question: she seemed to have a limited amount of money for travelling yet obviously wanted to travel. Why go to Toronto and THEN soon after head down to California? Seems to be a strain on her limited resources - how much time separated her return from Toronto from her departure to San Diego? Someone asked how she came to be on the George Stromboloulos TV set not sure if that got answered.

Did she fly to and from Toronto?
We know she stayed in a hostel on College Street in Toronto - by the way for those going over and over the word/name "Cecil" yes there is a Cecil street close to the hostel.
I realize some posts haven't liked the Ching Hai direction but IF we can find out that the farm she wanted to work on was linked to that movement and IF she visited the restaurant Loving Hut in Toronto and San Diego - that would be interesting and signficant IMO. I have emphasized that it does NOT mean that the movement is a cult - it sounds like there are many very idealistic aspects which would catch they eye of a spirited youth. Let's face it it is a fact that lots of young people disappear into groups some people call "cults" and never emerge again - I knew people when young who joined the Children of God (now The Family) and are STILL joining and in fact creating their own new groups.....forty years later. It is interesting to consider because they have the power to engineer things to some extent, they have money, power.

But loving hut in Toronto is closed...

 

[Ghostwheel]

That's a great idea. Even if things were that blurry to her - she would figure out the floors are in a section above the buttons with other functions. My contention is that she pressed the buttons in the middle column because she had a notion that it would cause an unusual behavior in the elevator. She was purposeful in what she pressed.

She might not have known about the Door Hold function. Not all elevators have one. In a lot of elevators, the middle bottom button is the Lobby button.

 

[OCSlacker]

Beginnings of a time line of known aspects in this case. Everything below is from media sources quoting the police

Arrived in LA Jan. 26th via LAPD

Checked in to Cecil Hotel Jan 28th, checkout scheduled for Feb 1st via LAPD

Last seen in lobby by hotel staff Jan 31st via LAPD

Last contact with family Jan 31st via Vancouver Police

LAPD go public seek help in locating Elisa Feb 6th

LAPD release video of Elisa in elevator Feb 13


Found in water tank atop Hotel Cecil Feb 19th by hotel worker investigating low water pressure in hotel

What are some more basic questions we need to fill in the blanks?

Thought she was in San Diego on 1/26-1/27. Didn't think she arrived in LA until the 28

http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/39940752951/i-just-got-my-flightbookd-vancouver-jan-18

 

[Sillybilly]

Thought she was in San Diego on 2/26-2/27. Didn't think she arrived in LA until the 28

http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/39940752951/i-just-got-my-flightbookd-vancouver-jan-18

We know what you meant OCS, but strictly for the record 1/26 - 1/27

Shall I serve coffee and cookies, or should we all take a nice refreshing nap

 

[FutzBucket]

The police believe that she was placed in the tank around the 14th - 16th of Feb. They base this upon her level of decay, and people started complaining of a weird taste and blackish water about the 16th.

But, people say the water first became clogged at the time of her disappearance. How is this possible?

I suspect the temperature had a lot to do with that. The first half of February was very cold, and I think this causes the temperature in the water to drop, causing EL's rate of decay to slow.

Then, on the 16th of February, the temperature rose to 60-degrees, causing, I believe, EL's body to rapidly decay.

This explains how the water could get clogged the night she disappeared, but the water to not show other signs until the 16th.

So, if she was in the tank the whole time, how come the dogs didn't notice her? Because she was alive going in, and between the tank, the water, and the height of the tank's entrance, the dogs simply never got a wiff of her.

 

[Sillybilly]

The police believe that she was placed in the tank around the 14th - 16th of Feb. They base this upon her level of decay, and people started complaining of a weird taste and blackish water about the 16th.

Where did they say this?