CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #5

[dotr]

I was reading the comments on the bottom of the page at the link you posted and 1 guy stated that he had been up on the roof before to see the sunset and that he had even seen someone living in the maintenance closet. So, I suppose if a person were to go up to the roof, it was no telling who they would meet up with.

Very possible that people could be secretly living on roofs (especially warm climates)Looking for links came across this one with several cases compiled.

http://arthurlifeintheshadows.blogspot.ca/2011/05/homeless-people-secretly-living-in-your.html

 

[tapu]

There was a video posted a week ago about an unusual room that a person got accidentally issued with a large convention. This was at an upstanding hotel. But, the room looked like it could have been set up for making snuff films in, or blackmail, or torture, with chains on the bed and a two-way mirror.
You would have nutted up for real over that video and been able to conjure up all sorts of scenarios about.

It might not be as uncommon as we think.
Btw, did or does the hotels you have worked at have such a room or two set aside for nefarious activities?

Gee, I never get that room at the hotel by accident....


Ja ja ja!

 

[FutzBucket]

And...I'm here because I recently lost a good friend and this story really hit me. So, yeah, I'm probably just trying to make sense from nothing.

I'm just tired of people dying.

 

[bonchef]

I guess I didn't see that. Are you saying even a friend of hers said this wasn't her because of the shoes. The appear to me to be a type of backless mule or sandal. The sole/heel appears thicker than the average flip-flop.

Had a hard time finding the right keyword to search the old threads. I thought it started around middle of #3. With bunch of pictures of models on high heels. Perhaps someone else can chime in.

The argument was not splitting hair on flipflops over sandals, but the OP thought they were high heels not of EL's usual style. I dismissed the high heel part myself too, I believe it was the white specks on the front flap making them resemble certain style of high heels.

To FutzBucket: I am not of the camp discrediting her (and I am not saying you imply I am). In fact, it is exactly my read of her positive outlook despite some mental issues that contradicts the slouchy posture. Yeah, it is a weak association, but bothers me. Also, even if the woman is not EL, it could still be related to this case.

And... whoever the woman was, after we learned from the newer video of how the elevator works (wont close unless pressing close door, or someone calling the elevator from another floor), it becomes very likely that the person was holding and slowing the elevator on purpose (pressing multi-floors + hold).

 

[tapu]

Oh, yeah, I don't think I'm 100% at all. I'm sure there are things I'm missing. For example, how the heck can I know he has a gun, or even if it's a he?

That's why I'm telling you people, because, frankly, you people are the only ones that will listen to me, and possibly use this information. I also assume the police are monitoring this, and I really hope they are.
<snip>

Babe, I know you're trying, but you are still in it as though it is reality. See my bold, above. This is NOT "information." This is, with no disrespect, a flight of fancy. One thing you might try to do is attack your own theory--to make sure you aren't talking yourself into things. Make a few columns (I dunno, verified info; generally accepted info (but be rigorous about that--accepted by a number of others here, your peers, not just you), complete conjecture. Then write about your "suspect." That might help you sort out what you could profitably investigate further, as well as what you need to discard presently in your theory for lack of evidence.

The Buddha said something like: Never accept anything JUST because it is in accordance with your own beliefs already.

-- the tapu [adding: just saw your last post. so sorry! please stick around and get something out of the distraction and from the company here. no one dislikes you; we're just helping you get into the excellent "hobby" of sleuthing based on evidence and supported reasoning. happens all the time at first.]

 

[No Joe Friday]

Yeah, security is usually pretty good, I bet, because the top floors are occupied by crazy people too poor to live in a hospital.

Yeah, I'm basing this on pure speculation, but man...a Hostel by Skid Row? Yeah, it's got some dangerous people living there.

Well, they're dangerous if you go up there in the middle of the night, because they'll think you must be there to hurt them.

In my concept, in the suspect's eyes, Elisa was just some street trash there to rob and/or hurt the suspect. Almost the whole thing was Elisa trying to convince the suspect that she's really just a sweet girl that made a simple mistake.

The suspect gives her 20-seconds to leave, and when she doesn't, the suspect believes this confirms that she's a threat.

I also believe the suspect is a paranoid schizophrenic, which explains his total knowledge and aversion to the camera, and why he doesn't just take her to the lobby.

He chooses the water-tank, because it was the only place he could think to hold her.

"It's probably got some dangerous people there" is true but it doesn't lead me anywhere close to your assertion "Knock on the wrong door and you probably end up dead."

 

[No Joe Friday]

Babe, I know you're trying, but you are still in it as though it is reality. See my bold, above. This is NOT "information." This is, with no disrespect, a flight of fancy. One thing you might try to do is attack your own theory--to make sure you aren't talking yourself into things. Make a few columns (I dunno, verified info; generally accepted info (but be rigorous about that--accepted by a number of others here, your peers, not just you), complete conjecture. Then write about your "suspect." That might help you sort out what you could profitably investigate further, as well as what you need to discard presently in your theory for lack of evidence.

The Buddha said something like: Never accept anything JUST because it is in accordance with your own beliefs already.

-- the tapu

Excellent post Tapu.

 

[FutzBucket]

Babe, I know you're trying, but you are still in it as though it is reality. See my bold, above. This is NOT "information." This is, with no disrespect, a flight of fancy. One thing you might try to do is attack your own theory--to make sure you aren't talking yourself into things. Make a few columns (I dunno, verified info; generally accepted info (but be rigorous about that--accepted by a number of others here, your peers, not just you), complete conjecture. Then write about your "suspect." That might help you sort out what you could profitably investigate further, as well as what you need to discard presently in your theory for lack of evidence.

The Buddha said something like: Never accept anything JUST because it is in accordance with your own beliefs already.

-- the tapu

I dig all that, I really, really do, but the thing that's poking the back of my head is this concept, no matter how much it's imagined, fits.

I've been looking for things to discredit it. I keep finding things to support it.

Sure, I might be going manic, but even if I am, what if I'm right?

 

[Socrates]

I think it's extremely important to wonder whether something organic was happening with EL, whether it be a manic episode, a hypoglycemic event or something else. Mental illness is not a means which to discredit someone, it is a chemical glitch...

I agree with necco. I'm inclined to think that she was not in her right mind in the surveillance video, and that this could be due to illicit drug or medications she was on.

Again, an expert on the behavior of people on drugs thought her behavior consistent with ecstasy use: http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/...s_ecstasy_strange_behavior_trinka_porrata.php

And her "best friend" in Vancouver also thought she seemed drugged in the video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOaXm4KJli8"]Elisa Lam&#39;s killer suspect - YouTube[/ame]

And then there was the body language expert who thought she moved very quickly from confidence, to anxiety, to playfulness and then to preening in the mirror: http://www.bodylanguagesuccess.com/2013/02/nonverbal-communication-analysis-2313.html And he notes that drugs are one possible explanation for her unusual body language: "...although at times she displays some anxiety, there is no indication of fear. There is definitely an element of play present here. It is of course also possible that narcotics are influencing her behavior."

I agree with Futz that some people commenting on other sites are denigrating Elisa, and that that's a disgusting thing to do, but that's not happening here. We just want to figure out what happened,so that whoever killed her (if it was not a suicide or an accident) pays for it dearly.

The toxicology report should tell us more. When it comes out, I'll definitely reconsider this issue of whether drugs or medications had something to do with this. But it seems irrational to me to rule out drugs or medications as a possible contributor before the toxicology results come in.

For now, I think the idea that she was being affected by drugs or medications, and that this made her confused and a vulnerable, that she encountered a predator some time after the video was taken (though it could well have been someone she had met before) and that she was then assaulted, killed and disposed of in the water tank fits the facts of the case, as we know them at present.

But there are other plausible theories as well. We need more facts to decide which one is right.

 

[FutzBucket]

I agree with necco. I'm inclined to think that she was not in her right mind in the surveillance video, and that this could be due to illicit drug or medications she was on.

Again, an expert on the behavior of people on drugs thought her behavior consistent with ecstasy use: http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/...s_ecstasy_strange_behavior_trinka_porrata.php

And her "best friend" in Vancouver also thought she seemed drugged in the video: Elisa Lam's killer suspect - YouTube

And then there was the body language expert who thought she moved very quickly from confidence, to anxiety, to playfulness and then to preening in the mirror: http://www.bodylanguagesuccess.com/2013/02/nonverbal-communication-analysis-2313.html And he notes that drugs are one possible explanation for her unusual body language: "...although at times she displays some anxiety, there is no indication of fear. There is definitely an element of play present here. It is of course also possible that narcotics are influencing her behavior."

I agree with Futz that some people commenting on other sites are denigrating Elisa, and that that's a disgusting thing to do, but that's not happening here. We just want to figure out what happened,so that whoever killed her (if it was not a suicide or an accident) pays for it dearly.

The toxicology report should tell us more. When it comes out, I'll definitely reconsider this issue of whether drugs or medications had something to do with this. But it seems irrational to me to rule out drugs or medications as a possible contributor before the toxicology results come in.

For now, I think the idea that she was being affected by drugs or medications, and that this made her confused and a vulnerable, that she encountered a predator some time after the video was taken (though it could well have been someone she had met before) and that she was then assaulted, killed and disposed of in the water tank fits the facts of the case, as we know them at present.

But there are other plausible theories as well. We need more facts to decide which one is right.

I respect this. I also ask for the respect that I hold that Elisa wouldn't do drugs, and I'm betting that tox report is clean.

 

[tapu]

Well... just don't fly to the scene or show up at the police station. I don't want to see your mug on CNN.
Let the official investigation play out a little more right now and reassess your opinions later.

 

[tapu]

A parent can't be that sure their own child isn't doing drugs. (I know.)

Your level of conviction based on far less contact/access goes beyond almost anything I've seen.

I say this even though I don't think she was the likely sort to do recreational drugs either. But, who knows? No one ever thought I did drugs in high school or college--ha!

 

[FutzBucket]

Well... just don't fly to the scene or show up at the police station. I don't want to see your mug on CNN. Let the official investigation play out a little more right now and reassess your opinions later.

Which is another reason why I'm here. I want to help, and I think I can.

At the very least, I can be used to research hotel protocol, I guess. I'm still gonna talk about my concept.

Heck, I'll serve coffee and donuts, if you just listen to my concept.

 

[cluciano63]

I respect this. I also ask for the respect that I hold that Elisa wouldn't do drugs, and I'm betting that tox report is clean.

I think they will find prescriptions meds, at the very least. Her tumblr was pretty specific as to her diagnosis and meds. I do not believe her tumblr was hacked. JMO

 

[RhiannonR]

I am online "friends" with a LA Times reporter. He is expecting her tox results to come back showing a mix of drugs. I also spoke with a historian that was interviewed by major media and she is expecting the same. She thinks there is knowledge that LE suffered from bi-polar disorder and may have been in a manic phase. A friend of this person relates running into LE at the Last Bookstore and was very annoyed by her pesky behavior. Also very easy to buy pills on the street near the local Rite-Aid. Ambien could have been part of the this cocktail too. Wish I could say more, but I can't. I was at the Cecil yesterday. Didn't go inside, but it looked like business as usual. There is a small memorial on the sidewalk just north of the hotel consisting of candles and flowers. These are just people's opinions here, I want to reiterate!

 

[FiveFelines]

Yeah, security is usually pretty good, I bet, because the top floors are occupied by crazy people too poor to live in a hospital.

Yeah, I'm basing this on pure speculation, but man...a Hostel by Skid Row? Yeah, it's got some dangerous people living there.

Well, they're dangerous if you go up there in the middle of the night, because they'll think you must be there to hurt them.

In my concept, in the suspect's eyes, Elisa was just some street trash there to rob and/or hurt the suspect. Almost the whole thing was Elisa trying to convince the suspect that she's really just a sweet girl that made a simple mistake.

The suspect gives her 20-seconds to leave, and when she doesn't, the suspect believes this confirms that she's a threat.

I also believe the suspect is a paranoid schizophrenic, which explains his total knowledge and aversion to the camera, and why he doesn't just take her to the lobby.

He chooses the water-tank, because it was the only place he could think to hold her.

Sorry to keep questioning you! About the top floors being for long-term residents: Is that confirmed? I think I linked earlier to reviews where guests were placed on the 15th and 14th floors and that they thought these were the "better" rooms (possibly because of the view).

 

[houndstooth]

Had a hard time finding the right keyword to search the old threads. I thought it started around middle of #3. With bunch of pictures of models on high heels. Perhaps someone else can chime in.

The argument was not splitting hair on flipflops over sandals, but the OP thought they were high heels not of EL's usual style. I dismissed the high heel part myself too, I believe it was the white specks on the front flap making them resemble certain style of high heels.

To FutzBucket: I am not of the camp discrediting her (and I am not saying you imply I am). In fact, it is exactly my read of her positive outlook despite some mental issues that contradicts the slouchy posture. Yeah, it is a weak association, but bothers me. Also, even if the woman is not EL, it could still be related to this case.

And... whoever the woman was, after we learned from the newer video of how the elevator works (wont close unless pressing close door, or someone calling the elevator from another floor), it becomes very likely that the person was holding and slowing the elevator on purpose (pressing multi-floors + hold).

Thanks for the tip.
I haven't gotton to that exchange yet, but was interested in this photo I found.

It reminded me that it doesn't matter what a person on the 14th floor said,
or 4th floor, etc., when there are effectively 3 14th floors and 3 4th floors and so on, in this E shaped building.

Do we even know which bar of the "E" she was staying on?
In the photo above the person who posted it as you can see was staying in the middle bar of "Stay at Main" and trekked to the top floor (15), in order to reach the roof via fire escape. The Chinese investigators evidently used the 15th floor of the front or main section of the E to take his photo of the 15th floor fire escape pic.
It really gives some perspective on this.

 

[FutzBucket]

A parent can't be that sure their own child isn't doing drugs. (I know.)

Your level of conviction based on far less contact/access goes beyond almost anything I've seen.

I say this even though I don't think she was the likely sort to do recreational drugs either. But, who knows? No one ever thought I did drugs in high school or college--ha!

I doubt she was an angel, but I don't think she's the type to drop x in strange neighborhoods. I think she was depressed over her performance in college, and this was a sort-of sabbatical she was taking in America to discover herself.

I think she was more interested in America than she was in partying. I base this on her conversation with the store clerk where she showed concern over the ability to bring the things she purchased back to her family as presents.

This isn't something your typical, hallucinogenic drug-user would worry about.

The problem with recreational drug-users is they become screw-ups. They screw up little details like this all the time.

I think Elisa was the opposite. I think she was VERY concerned over matters, so much that they needed to medicate her to calm her down.

 

[Socrates]

I respect this. I also ask for the respect that I hold that Elisa wouldn't do drugs, and I'm betting that tox report is clean.

Okay, fine. But you didn't know her, so i don't see how you can be certain what she would have done. Not everyone who takes drugs voluntarily is a bad person. Some of them are good people who make a poor choice. Some of them turn out to be pretty successful later in life (Steve Jobs comes to mind).

Secondly, it could be that she took the drugs involuntarily, that someone slipped them to her.

Thirdly, it could have been the medications she was on, the ones listed on her blog, or something like Ambien. A lot of people here have pointed out that Ambien can in some cases induce strange behavior--though we have no evidence that she was taking Ambien, she did complain about insomnia a lot.

I myself doubt that she took illicit drugs that night voluntarily, but I don't know... I don't want to push this theory, because it really depends upon what the toxicology report says...

As for the theory you've advanced, I have doubts about it because (a) I don't think it fits with her behavior in the video, (b) a sexual predator seems to me a more likely culprit here than a paranoid schizophrenic, and (c) there are other plausible accounts, so that I can't definitely adhere to any single theory on such scanty evidence... I'll elaborate more on my doubts later if you like.

PS: Whatever our disagreements, I didn't want you to leave the forum. Just stay calm and recognize that we all have different experiences and ways of thinking and so we tend to interpret things differently. If someone doubts your theory, it isn't because he doesn't care about solving the crime or seeing justice done in the case... As I wrote once before, I hope the LAPD do consider the scenario you've outlined. They will certainly try to find out whether she drowned or was already dead before entering the cistern.

 

[bessie]

I am online "friends" with a LA Times reporter. He is expecting her tox results to come back showing a mix of drugs. I also spoke with a historian that was interviewed by major media and she is expecting the same. She thinks there is knowledge that LE suffered from bi-polar disorder and may have been in a manic phase. A friend of this person relates running into LE at the Last Bookstore and was very annoyed by her pesky behavior. Also very easy to buy pills on the street near the local Rite-Aid. Ambien could have been part of the this cocktail too. Wish I could say more, but I can't. I was at the Cecil yesterday. Didn't go inside, but it looked like business as usual. There is a small memorial on the sidewalk just north of the hotel consisting of candles and flowers. These are just people's opinions here, I want to reiterate!

I appreciate the last sentence, RhiannonR, but these are rumors, and rumors are generally not allowed on WS. The threads have been inundated with them already, and I would ask that we all do our best to keep them in check, and refrain from posting them. Thanks.