CA - Christopher Dorner kills 4 in tri-county rampage, Feb 2013 - #3

[Elley Mae]

Another interesting aspect of the case is the way certain issues here seem to build bridges between the concerns at the edges of the political Right and Left: the (possible) use of drones to track and attack - civil liberties of American citizens both here and abroad. Unchecked power and the death by fire - Waco, 1993 (and MOVE, 1985, Philadelphia, and S.L.A., 1974, Los Angeles, - and the Tulsa race riots of 1921). Dorner's possible hoarding of a cache of weapons and Second Amendment rights.

bbm,
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013...starting-pyrotechnic-tear-gas-against-dorner/

Sheriff’s Acknowledge Using Fire-Starting Pyrotechnic Tear Gas Against Dorner


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...fer_pyrotechnic_tear_gas_and_delta_force.html

Posted Thursday, Sept. 2, 1999

After years of denial, the FBI has admitted to using pyrotechnic (or "incendiary") tear gas in the 1993 Federal assault on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.

First, the smoke cloud obscures the movement of agents as they approach a building or crowd. Second, because the metal casing becomes quite hot, it is difficult for the device to be thrown back at police (a common problem with powder grenades). The disadvantage is that it can start a fire. The FBI insists, however, that the timing and location make it impossible to blame pyrotechnic tear gas for the fire that killed 76 people at Waco.

 

[danzn16]

Well, the burners saved somebody or something a lot of money.

Oh my word. People were crying because there wasn't an award. Then there was. Now people are crying because the award was only for his alive capture and conviction. What kind of award is for a mans death? Now that's sick. Not sure if I've seen one of those awards in modern times. People would be crying about that if the cabin owners were paid for that. There is no winning here for LE. And still reports are saying Dorner started the fire. And still LE are blamed. Even when LE had every right to set that cabin on fire to flush him out for surrender, it would not have been for murder. Killing himself was his choice. People need to get real.

 

[time]

I'm certain we can all relate to being disrespected or discriminated against in subtle or blatant ways throughout our lives -- whether you're rich, poor, tall, short, fat, skinny, attractive or not, etc., there's always someone who will not like you for whatever reason and will say/do ignorant things to you. It's wrong but it's human nature and happens all the time. That doesn't give Dorner or anyone the right to seek vengeance.

I don't think it has anything to do with having a right. Of course, no one has a right to do that, do they?

Not that I am relating this to Dorner or anyone in specific, but certain kinds of discrimination hurt a lot more than other types. No reason to turn everything into one big slurry of relativism.

On another matter, and then I am leaving this forum...

I feel some here are confusing concern about what transpired and with talking about what led Dorner to this horrible place with being some Dorner groupy - this has even been blatantly stated in some posts and I find that extremely offensive and unfair to many posters here. While there is some small segment of the population doing the later (I found out last night), I think it is horribly unfair to peg posters here as being in that group and really serves no purpose. But for some to claim the US is going down the toilet because of people like that seems ridiculous. The internet has given voice to people who will sign on to stuff like this - it does not mean the same type of people weren't always there, i.e., the world is not doomed. It is when we can no longer question that the world is doomed.

 

[danzn16]

Age 6 actually - first grade I think? That inclusion didn't affect me one way or another. I distinctly recall an instance of prejudice from second grade which made me so mad at the time that I can still recall to this day everything that was said.

Do you rage about it in a manifesto and kill people? Remembering an event and this man is very different

 

[danzn16]

Likely why no one reported Dorner except the couple who were held hostage. They figured it was likely a sham reward.

Surely not everyone in this world is that awful of a human being to only be motivated by rewards? Our poor society if so

 

[danzn16]

This man is very narcissistic and obviously has feelings of grandiose that he did not live up to. I know a few people like that and I'm sure many of you do as well. The people I know like this lie and can do know wrong on their eyes. I'm sure Dorner is exactly like this. I don't believe a word that he wrote because of his personality because of the people that used to be close with him testimony about him and because he is obviously mentally disturbed.

 

[wfgodot]

As George Orwell wrote, “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

 

[bourne]

Surely not everyone in this world is that awful of a human being to only be motivated by rewards? Our poor society if so

lol I'm certain there are still some of us with internal moral compasses that are non-award-seeking good Samaritans.

 

[bourne]

I don't think it has anything to do with having a right. Of course, no one has a right to do that, do they?

Not that I am relating this to Dorner or anyone in specific, but certain kinds of discrimination hurt a lot more than other types. No reason to turn everything into one big slurry of relativism.

On another matter, and then I am leaving this forum...

I feel some here are confusing concern about what transpired and with talking about what led Dorner to this horrible place with being some Dorner groupy - this has even been blatantly stated in some posts and I find that extremely offensive and unfair to many posters here. While there is some small segment of the population doing the later (I found out last night), I think it is horribly unfair to peg posters here as being in that group and really serves no purpose. But for some to claim the US is going down the toilet because of people like that seems ridiculous. The internet has given voice to people who will sign on to stuff like this - it does not mean the same type of people weren't always there, i.e., the world is not doomed. It is when we can no longer question that the world is doomed.

In Dorner's view, he did have a right. That's why he wrote the manifesto. It was his justification for why he was going on a murder rampage against LAPD and their families.

I don't believe people who criticize some of the LAPD's actions in this case are Dorner groupies. I take each poster as an individual, and would hope you do so too. I have no judgment of you. As you know, I have nothing but great respect for you. We've been WS friends for a long time...

Why are you leaving this forum? Is this a permanent departure from WS or just for now? It'll be a great shame if you let some of the disagreements influence you to end your postership here.

 

[Sonya610]

lol I'm certain there are still some of us with internal moral compasses that are non-award-seeking good Samaritans.

I am sure there are, but also a reward like that is often trying to bring out associates or friends that may know the suspect. They often need the added incentive.

I think the general public WOULD offer tips without a reward in a case like this as he is a danger to everyone.

 

[Seajay]

There was a shot from within the cabin before the "burners" were deployed. He may have already killed himself and the "burners" had nothing to do with his death. I wouldn't be surprised it the autopsy shows a bullet in his head or heart or something. To say categorically that the police killed him is unfair right now since we don't know for sure what happened. We need to cool our jets before we go making accusations willynilly. IMO.

 

[Seajay]

As far as the reward goes, I do think they should pay it. The people who called it in and notified LE of his location should get the reward. They didn't do it for the reward, because both had been victims of CD, however, they did inform LE of his whereabouts approximately. IMO

 

[Abby Normal Again]

Anyone else surprised this guy stopped and let the suspect approach his car?

Guess maybe if he was standing in the road pointing a gun directly at the driver, that would force someone to stop but otherwise heck no, a car is a weapon too. Maybe the folks in Big Bear weren't concerned about the lunatic being on the loose anymore?

He said he was coming round a curve and Dorner stepped out in front of him with a gun pointed at him. So he was driving slow and a gun was pointed at his being. I may have stopped too. Maybe ducked and sped up, but probably not if caught off guard?

I don't know where Dorner was hiding from Thursday through yesterday. I don't know how LE were clearing buildings, who gave the command, etc. Will LE use this incident in their future training and review their actions to determine what needs to be changed if this ever occurs again, of course. I don't need to be sold on any of that. You will never convince me that it was anyone else's fault BUT Dorner's that all four of his murder victims were killed.

My comments were in regards to the following quote, "I realize Dorner's anger and threats were directed at LE, I realize he murdered LE family members and LE officers. But I find myself asking - why does that justify the outcome to this manhunt and would this rapidity of action be imposed if someone just murdered an "everyday" citizen."

The individual states (at least in my interpretation) that, while he did murder four people, it doesn't excuse the fact that LE should not have allowed Dorner to die in the cabin (which was the outcome to the manhunt) and that LE wouldn't have acted as rapid as they did if the victims weren't law enforcement or their family.

I don't think they would have used such aggressive means if he had murdered someone, past tense, but if he was actively hunting any group of people I do believe LE would have been similarly aggressive in the manhunt. JMO. It wasn't the murder, it was the threat to continue to murder and acting upon it that got people hustling.

"burn it down" doesn't sound like something you'd hear from an angry mob? Ive heard people in near riots shout the same thing, but I would guess no one would defend it in that context. I wouldn't.

If an order was given to deliberately burn that cabin, knowing a human being was inside it, that is scary to me. As is what sounds like an attitude of vengeance from LE yelling those phrases. I do not fault anyone for losing their cool, but a higher standard must be upheld, and if it is not then we as citizens need to know why, and how to prevent it from happening again.

eh, adrenalin.

I mean, I am on board with the deep criticism of the cops who shot up the other pick ups and such, totally. I'm not an "LE can do no wrong" or "LE can do no right" but few of us here can really even comprehend the physical and psychological impact this is having on the person who was speaking in that moment.

 

[Lois Lane]

BBM

There was a shot from within the cabin before the "burners" were deployed. He may have already killed himself and the "burners" had nothing to do with his death. I wouldn't be surprised it the autopsy shows a bullet in his head or heart or something. To say categorically that the police killed him is unfair right now since we don't know for sure what happened. We need to cool our jets before we go making accusations willynilly. IMO.

Um, no.

The single shot fired from within the cabin was after the burners were deployed.

26:22 and 30:56 here:

https://archive.org/details/DornerStandoff2,

or

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8854163&postcount=23"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


and

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8854236&postcount=56"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


I will not be surprised if Dorner shot himself.

As you say, we don't know the cause of death.

However, controversy around the use of pyrotechnic/incendiary canisters is not new.

 

[time]

In Dorner's view, he did have a right. That's why he wrote the manifesto. It was his justification for why he was going on a murder rampage against LAPD and their families.

I don't believe people who criticize some of the LAPD's actions in this case are Dorner groupies. I take each poster as an individual, and would hope you do so too. I have no judgment of you. As you know, I have nothing but great respect for you. We've been WS friends for a long time...

Why are you leaving this forum? Is this a permanent departure from WS or just for now? It'll be a great shame if you let some of the disagreements influence you to end your postership here.

I'm sorry bourne... the last part of my post wasn't directed at you! I don't know if Dorner or any other mass murderers thinks of it as a right ... you could be correct. I don't think we know enough about what makes them tick, unfortunately... but especially how they go to that point. Dorner obviously wanted the world to know his history and why he was the way he was. No matter how horrendous, at least we know more about him than many others who do this, e.g., Sandy Hook.

Not departing WS, but it serves no purpose to try and discuss concerns like how this was handled only to have it turned around as LE bashing and mass murderer lover. See ya!

 

[Trident]

Another interesting aspect of the case is the way certain issues here seem to build bridges between the concerns at the edges of the political Right and Left: the (possible) use of drones to track and attack - civil liberties of American citizens both here and abroad. Unchecked power and the death by fire - Waco, 1993 (and MOVE, 1985, Philadelphia, and S.L.A., 1974, Los Angeles, - and the Tulsa race riots of 1921). Dorner's possible hoarding of a cache of weapons and Second Amendment rights.

I'm going to say it flat out, right or wrong. I'm more worried, afraid of LE and other powers that be, than I am of a hundred Dorners.

 

[Seajay]

Nothing is perfect. Certainly not LAPD but then again what LE agency is? We have the Rampart scandal, the dissolution of the CRASH program, but we also have corruption in NYPD, New Orleans PD, Chicago PD. it's all around. Wherever there is power, corruption follows.

In this case, LE had to end this before nightfall or risk him escaping and taking more lives. Who knows how long he would have honored his "no civilians" self imposed code? This had to end. CD decided how that was going to be. He knew their tactics. FWIW

 

[Herding Cats]

The issue with the reward is that it was offered, and in good faith should be paid. What a lot of posters don't seem to realize is that trust and good faith is very low with Los Angeles citizens regarding it's government and it's PD. Paying this reward would be very, very good in boosting confidence that the city does right by it's folks, but withholding it solidifies the distrust and spurs the thought that "they're not honest."

I will say that I've heard rumors (just rumors, mind you) that the 94 Riots could easily be repeated. There are some who say that LAPD has made great strides in building bridges; and there are others who say "they just got better at covering it up."

I don't know the truth...but what I know is that paying the reward would go a LONG way to settling folks down, and letting them see that the city is, indeed, standing by it's word.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[wfgodot]

I've seen rewards in criminal cases described as - along with wanted posters at the ol' post office - regressive means of crime solving (as opposed to progressive measures such as use of social media and transparency by the police in being open with the public in their appeal to them to become involved and help). The Dorner case does seem to be one in which a reward offering could be effective. Failure to pay the reward in this case on technicalities may kill the rewards system entirely.

(The conversation about rewards I speak of above comes from the Joanna Yeates case in the UK, in which The Sun newspaper put up £50000 and Crimestoppers another £10000. Can't find the specific link with the discussion right now. Law enforcement in that case did use social media and transparency - and arrested the wrong man first time around [and the reward had no effect in solving the murder] - perhaps proof that we can only move toward solutions, though they will never be perfect ones.)

 

[Sonya610]

I don't know the truth...but what I know is that paying the reward would go a LONG way to settling folks down, and letting them see that the city is, indeed, standing by it's word.

Yeah I agree, not paying the reward seems pretty bad ESPECIALLY because THEY were in control of the reward and the events that allowed it NOT to be claimed (i.e. killing the suspect).

It is almost like a bad joke really.