CA CA - Elizabeth Short 'Black Dahlia', 22, Los Angeles, 15 Jan 1947

[wfgodot]

Just speaking generally, I find that the "they knew who did it" argument pales before the "they knew who did it, and can prove it in a court of law" one. And if they can't prove it, they don't know who did it.

 

[STANDREID]

There are at least three doctors that have been named as suspects in addition to many others.

 

[Snick1946]

They knew who killed her, just never proved it. This was back when the police were corrupt. The doc basically owned them. They never named him as the suspect. The family knew he did it though.

I took care of one of her cousins that grew up with her. He said they always knew it was him. I wish I could remember all that he told me but I can't, grrrr

Maybe I mssed something but I don't quite follow what you refer to. What 'doc'? I know we cannot use names but can you fill this in for some of us? Thanks.

 

[barrysgirl]

Maybe I mssed something but I don't quite follow what you refer to. What 'doc'? I know we cannot use names but can you fill this in for some of us? Thanks.

If there are as many as 3 docs then nope, I have no idea which one it is. I will try to find where I wrote down what he told me.

 

[Nova]

Does anyone remember the official cause of death? Wiki is down for the day and the Black Dahlia website mentions rape, sodomy, bruises and lacerations without every specifically identifying the cause. Was it ever determined?

 

[Redbird]

The Black Dahlia case is the most fascinating case I have ever read. The book Black Dahlia Avenger by Steve Hodel was a book I could not put down. I lean toward Steve's father Dr. Hodel being the murderer, a belief shared by James Elroy, one of my favorite mystery writers. I am trying to find the answer to the question how did she die and am now reading Steve Hodel's blog. Very interesting today. Here is the link, if anyone is interested. This case is so complicated one cannot summarize it in a few paragraphs (at least I can't).

http://blog.stevehodel.com/

 

[wfgodot]

Another good, Hodel-related, link (this book is a must-have for Dahlia fans)

EXQUISITE CORPSE: SURREALISM AND THE BLACK DAHLIA MURDER

 

[tlcya]

This is the first true crime case I ever got interested in enough to seak out reading and research material on. I was 12 and saw photograph. The disturbing photograph sucked me in.

 

[wfgodot]

This seems, um, a bit of a stretch - reminds me of G.K. Chesterton's line in 'The Oracle of the Dog': "....if you'd only treated the dog as a dog and not as God" - as 66 years seems a perilously long time. Still, Hodel's book offers a very good solution to the case. (One needn't read his next book, in which he attempts to implicate his father in everything from the Zodiac killings to Chicago's Lipstick Murders.)

Could the infamous Black Dahlia case be about to be solved? Cadaver dog discovers
death scent at Hollywood home of suspect 66 years after the horrific murder (Sunday Mail)

 

[wishuwerehere]

I always thought Elizabeth Short to be a beautiful young woman who was trying to make it in Los Angeles as an actress and found it to be a dog-eat-dog town. I believe Elizabeth found herself down and out, but she still had her looks. It’s very possible while at the Biltmore she phoned someone to meet her. Was this person a means of last resort, and why? Did she know she was taking a risk by associating with this person from the get go?

It’s been speculated the perp may have been renting a house near the area Elizabeth’s body was found.

After reading many theories about this case over the years, it always seemed to me that there were two perpetrators involved in Elizabeth’s murder, a principal and an “assistant.”

I know there are many more details to the case, but the above has stuck out in my mind foremost regarding this intriguing case.

 

[wfgodot]

Accounts I've read said that, while Liz Short did have "looks," those looks were nothing special at all when it came to Hollywood. She evidently fell down the ladder fast without ever climbing too high, as a result.

 

[wishuwerehere]

It’s interesting that you’re zoning in on her “looks” because imo the murderer(s) was making some kind of statement about her looks by carving a “smile” in her face, among other heinous things he did to her body, i.e. cut it in half. I get the feeling the perp was treating her as a cadaver before she was dead.

 

[wfgodot]

It’s interesting that you’re zoning in on her “looks” because imo the murderer(s) was making some kind of statement about her looks by carving a “smile” in her face, among other heinous things he did to her body, i.e. cut it in half. I get the feeling the perp was treating her as a cadaver before she was dead.

Regarding her chances at stardom her looks, for better or worse, indeed played a heavy part.

The art book I linked above ("Exquisite Corpse: Surrealism and the Black Dahlia Murder") argues convincingly that the damage inflicted on the body was meant to mimic certain artworks of that genre by Marcel Duchamp, ManRay, and others. The Dahlia's body may have been treated as a canvas - as grotesque as that image is. Cadaver or canvas, she was objectified.

As in a sense she was as a woman seeking stardom in Hollywood.

 

[i.b.nora]

Larry Harnisch has had a number of entries about The Black Dahlia case since the one linked to in the opening post.

Today, for instance, he writes:

"Much has been written about the transcripts of the law enforcement bugging of Dr. George “Evil Genius” Hodel’s house, but the material is actually pretty dull. Here are some sample pages, chosen at random, published in their entirety."

http://ladailymirror.com/2013/02/03/black-dahlia-the-non-smoking-gun-george-hodel-files/

Or, just go to: http://ladailymuirror.com/

And you can scroll through the most recent entries, some of which are Dahlia related. His website is one of my most favorites and I usually try to visit every few days.

 

[justthinkin]

Was reading an article tonight on this case that I hadn't seen before. It was about a Colorado man who came forward to testify he and his date had been with Elizabeth Short and her date around the time of her murder.

The article appeared in the Los Angeles Times, Sunday, July 27, 1947.
Headline: Man Arrested in Colorado as 'Black Dahlia' Witness.
The article can be read at the bottom of this page:
http://eshorttheblackdahlia.blogspot.com/#! Only link I felt comfortable in giving as it didn't have the horrid pictures of poor Elizabeth.

A few minutes later something else hit me that I'd glossed over earlier. Elizabeth's body was transported to the staging site either wrapped in or somehow utilizing three 50lb. cement bags.
Now I haven't followed this case that closely, but I've only seen the 3 bags that were found near the body mentioned briefly in the articles I've read. HUH?

Surely these bags are most significant. Investigators should've latched on to these bags, and ferreted out who might have had them in their possession.

I would think that perhaps the suspect list could've been greatly shortened if police had been able to determine which suspect or suspects were the most likely to have had or used 3 50lb. bags of cement. Obviously they were empty bags, and at least one of them had some of Elizabeth Short's bodily fluids in or on it. It's doubtful anyone living in a hotel or for that matter, an apartment would have had a use for bags of cement so I would think that would eliminate a number of suspects who've been on the suspect list for years.

Who would have been most likely to have possessed those bags or had a use for 3 bags of cement?
1. A homeowner or rural property owner or other property owner
2. a construction worker
3. a Seabee since the Seabees are the construction branch of the military

Anyone else? Help me out here, fellow Sleuthers.

Also, had the perp thought about using the cement to perhaps weight Elizabeth's body down in water? Did the perp own a boat? Those 3 bags of cement had to go somewhere. Did investigators relentlessly pursue the whereabouts of the contents of those bags? I'm asking because I don't know the answer.

 

[SeekingJana]

Regarding the bags of cement and her very fringe- type existence in CA.. This jumped out at me:
Her father made a living building miniature golf courses, however in the 1929 stock market crash Cleo lost much of the family’s assets. A year later, in 1930 his car was found abandoned on a bridge and he was nowhere to be found. It was assumed he committed suicide.

Any chance that she could have looked up one or more old friends of her father's who might have moved to the " booming" Hollywood business sector? Maybe the murderer could have been an old friend of the family's through her father's golf course building? She seemed to take money wherever she could find it in CA.
This is one explanation for the cement bags which has a tie to a known fact. Just throwing it out there..

I guess a more logical thing would be to say that CA was experiencing huge growth at the time, thus a great deal of new construction, and cement bags were often found near vacant lots in suburbia. Take your pick. I have no clue who murdered her except that the person or persons were psychosexual sadistic.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I don't consider the book "wordy." It was suspenseful and analytical. Of course, the worst part of it is when he reveals how the Black Dahlia was tortured before being killed.

I believe Steve Hodel. It's unjust that the father didn't get caught, but nothing done to him could ever equal what he did to that woman. He or his accomplice was also the likely killer of crime writer, James Ellroy's, mother when Ellroy was 10, I believe. I think these mysteries have been solved.

What gives me the creeps is that Dr. Hodel liked to hang around with director John Huston and photographer Man Ray. These men were sadistic towards women. It's just Marilyn Monroe was only a starlet when Huston cast her in a movie, The Asphalt Jungle (and later, The Misfits). I'm glad she didn't get drawn in by those men.

Kathy C

Yes the doctors connections to Hollywoods A-List really makes the story a piece of pop culture history. We wonder if some members of the Hollywood elite did have a "murder club" with this doctor.

Yes, James Ellroy's mother's death was very unfortunate. She should not have dated the "swarthy man" that night (as witnesses described him. The physician (Prime suspect in ES murder) looked quite swarthy as well IMO.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I think it was a group of sadists who honestly enjoyed watching women be tortured. The doctor tortured/demonstrated the horror show, they watched in delight as of it were a movie or theater production IMHO.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I also find it strange, the plot of Huston's film and Arthur Miller's "The Misfits" and Marilyn Monroe as well as Gables last film.

This swarthy character played by Gable has an inability to be a father to his children. He even kills animals. He is a dark and evil man. The object of his affection played by MM is constantly battling between her love for this man and her hatred towards his depravity. The only redeeming qualities he has are all vain attempts to keep her affections.

He wanted her to have his baby. Finally at the end she tells him she will have a child with him someday, but only if it is treated like a human (not an animal).

This plot by Miller and Film by Huston (a friend of the Doc suspected of killing ES) really brings me to my fear - that artist borrow characters and write from life experience. I've even wondered if this doctor had anything to do with MM's death? Even Gables...

Did the doctor as well as Miller, Huston, (and other A Listers) all share a common obsession with women they "loved" and shared hatred for those women once they rejected them?

Did all of these men understand/sympathize with what it was like to be an absent philandering father who kills his mistresses once they don't want to answer to his every beckoned call? A man who can never get enough of that adrenaline from love, so if it is not reciprocated all that's left to draw from is hate and psychopsthy?

Hm. It's late and my cerebellum is slobbering.

 

[wfgodot]

The Hodel connection makes a certain grim sense (per his son's book and also and especially 'Exquisite Corpse: Surrealism and the Black Dahlia") especially if one considers certain works by Duchamp and Man Ray. Not sure it's necessary to bring half of Hollywood to the party though.