CA - Elliot Rodger kills 6, injures 13 in Isla Vista, Near UC Santa Barbara, #2

[Sunshine95]

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=Helpline1&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=65984

Please read the above post about Aspergers, a few things I would like to comment on regarding the diagnosis... It says the meds he didn't want to take help with irritability and aggression, so they were trying and doing all they could for this. Social cues and understanding are difficult for people with aspergers, it doesn't come to them like others, it has to be learned. I think he tried hard to learn the rules of social interactions, and questioned his worth as all of us do... Spending your adolescence in an environment where the rules seem to be that those boys who have value are rich, physically superior, and get the girls, in my opinion this is a large part of why he is fixated on such things. I have watched sweet, compassionate teens become self and money absorbed by going to a school with lots of rich, powerful, entitled people. Aspergers causes people to fixate, he fixated on his poor life. We see what we believe, he held into memories that supported his beliefs(as we all do), and fixated on them like an aspergers kid.

I don't think it's fair at all to blame the parents! My job has me trying to get parents to recognize and accept that their kids need help or extra support, and to get them to do so. It is a very difficult part of my job, SO many are in denial that there is anything of concern, and even fewer take the step of getting them help, often then it is too infrequent or short lived. His parents began intervening early! His therapy was very very frequent! They went to specialists! They reported and tried to stop him when they figured out it was an immediate threat!

To be involuntarily committed is very difficult. They have to pose an immediate and imminent danger to themselves or others. I cannot share with you all of the stories racing through my mind as I type this, but suffice it to say that a person who makes a threat of danger, with a plan, hours before finally being seen at the emergency room, but does not say the threats in there, will be released. He was too smart to be committed, IMO.
ETA his friends could have told the police, or a magistrate, maybe they did! But it wouldn't have gotten him committed IMO

I am so sad for all the victims, including his parents and family, and wish that I could do something to diminish the pain any little bit.

 

[lawstudent]

It's definitely nature and nurture, and skills can definitely be taught. But what do you do for a kid who cannot figure out how to appropriately socialize? While some skills can be taught, some can't. And he seems smart enough to have hid some of his behavior from his parents, as all teens do when it comes to the things they say to others that wouldn't meet their parents' approval. I believe it is possible he could have been taught to redirect his anger and deal with a plan as to how to move forward, but that would require the problem to be identified. Again, I doubt he was chatting often with his parents about his sexual desperation. If he was being secretive about it, they wouldn't have realized he needed to be helped with his frustration about women. These are the action of someone who felt that he was beyond help - that may be untrue, but that's the view of people who do these things. People like that shut down long before they act out of frustration - they may even seem better because they have more or less given up on the struggle. You can be taught a lot of skills, but they don't work well when you feel distinctly abnormal and hopeless. And when you do, you don't want to admit it and end up committed as a suicide risk.

This is difficult for me to talk about, but I have never been able to connect romantically - it's like I'm missing that part of my personality. I'm not nearly as odd as this man was, so I had plenty of chances, but don't act on them. It is difficult to articulate the pain this causes because most of the people you talk to have no idea what you are talking about - they can't imagine not having a significant other at some point. Most therapists he met were probably married. The older you get, the more frustrated you feel at being unable to explain your lack of dating success, even if by choice, when a great many people who seem universally undesirable have someone. It may seem like a silly thing to go crazy over, but I see all these "virgin killer" headlines and it's no wonder some people end up feeling totally disconnected from society. Combine that with deeper problems, and it is disaster. It's not a matter of him being a jerk, because a lot of jerks get women. It's a matter of him being unable to appear normal, and to probably even try very much at all, because of his inability to connect. If it was really about getting a woman, he could find someone online. It's much more likely that he was overwhelmed by a lifetime of not fitting in and ended up obsessing over the dating aspect of it. The people he ended up killing were very random - it was rage at society as a whole.

 

[lawstudent]

BBM

Seems to be contradictory paragraphs.

If nothing else, he had exhibited numerous signs and had numerous "therapists" and parents and friends and roommates and LE that were aware.

I don't believe in the defeatist attitude that he couldn't either be helped or be put away. If in fact he's just the product of society, it's even more reason to confront the civil libertarians for an exit loop for these kooks.

Not sure why they are contradictory - maybe because the second statement was a general one and the first one was specific to this case? If you clarify I could try and explain.

I consider it a realistic attitude, but obviously we all have our opinions. I didn't say he couldn't be helped, I just said we don't know, and it wouldn't be super easy. And obviously he could be put away as a matter of possibility, but not within the confines of our legal system. Changes could be made, but any attempt at deciding who should go in is virtually impossible IMO. Obviously many disagree, but I think if we tried it would become apparent. What did he exhibit numerous signs of? Of being "abnormal", certainly. But no way are we going to institutionalize everyone who is "off" - that seriously could almost be all people if you looked into the details of their lives and picked their strangest, most out of control moments. I know it's easy to look at him and say "well he is clearly more off than most" but you still have to specify what your criteria is. Even if it was pervasive social ineptness, that would involve institutionalizing a huge amount of people on the autism spectrum who have no higher risk of violence.

 

[Quester]

I'm curious ... did ER mention anything about religion in his manifesto? TIA

Just wondering if he had a foundation in a religion and, if so, which one. TIA

When I skimmed through it, I didn't see a mention of any religion but I jumped pages at a time.

 

[gajonka]

Dearest Mega-Sleuths:

You may have noticed, as I have, that we have a bit of an uprising (sort of) specific to one unique concern in particular... it is one where I can sense how and why... but after reflecting upon this - it is most certainly clear - that the parallel that has been drawn - has been drawn in error.

Misogyny - The issue is not with girls ( see this video again - as it offers the best evidence which illustrates his admiration for them)(Yes, I know, but let's put the trip to Tri_delta to the side for a few seconds).

http://youtu.be/zBvaVWdJRQM

The battle he is fighting is against "sex." The way of the world - and how his world has played out so poorly. The catalyst here is that he cannot live knowing that other men are having sex, and he is not. Yes, he questions, and queries girls... as to "why you are so repulsed by me?" but the only hate on the board arrives at the end with the trip to tri-delta and his use of a few phrases from Game of Thrones (rivers of blood, etc.).

Not saying it is a fertile effort here - but I think it is important - hey - maybe I am dead wrong... but the video above and others like- plus his perfectly crafted 137 pager - all confirm - this is not misogyny - and it is unfortunate that it may be defined as such, in error.

Which ever side you are on - you know I luv ya,


The Gajonka

 

[mrsobrien]

We're famous, lol! I wonder if I was quoted.

I was just in my car and I listen to local talk radio. The radio host was talking about ER and his murderous rampage. Low and behold, the radio host is basically quoting the various statements, views, details, all from WS. I almost drove off the road. I am in Delaware. Who knew? LOL.

 

[Plumeria5]

In the convenience store video, who is dressed all in black? Is that Chris or ER?

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

[L] ‘Lucky’ [R] Can’t Believe He Was Named in [ER]’s Manifesto
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/698...eve-he-was-named-in-elliot-rodgers-manifesto/

Below the article above is this link found below referring to the immense guilt ER's parents and step-mother are feeling...
****************************************************
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/698...lt-over-elliot-rodger-slayings-family-friend/

Chin Rodger and Peter Rodger ‘Crippled With Guilt’ Over Elliot Rodger Slayings: Family Friend

"Author Simon Astaire, who is acting as the family spokesman, told the Daily Mail that the family is so upset that they can “barely string a sentence together” and are “grieving for those innocents who lost their lives, above their own son.”

<snip>

“They don’t place any blame on the police, because Elliot fooled everyone, no one knew the man he was turning into,” he said. “He seemed a sensitive guy, there was nothing aggressive about him, there was no anger. No one recognizes the person portrayed in the manifesto. He didn’t act in that way, he was just in his own world. He didn’t once speak about guns."

“If you look at the amount of therapists they took him to, it is clear he did all he could. He’s writing with anger, but he constantly references how they tried to make him feel better.”

More at link above...

 

[human]

Therein lies the problem. Seeing women as objects is acceptable and normal.

And some women accept it too.

 

[Archangel7]

Not sure why they are contradictory - maybe because the second statement was a general one and the first one was specific to this case? If you clarify I could try and explain.

I consider it a realistic attitude, but obviously we all have our opinions. I didn't say he couldn't be helped, I just said we don't know, and it wouldn't be super easy. And obviously he could be put away as a matter of possibility, but not within the confines of our legal system. Changes could be made, but any attempt at deciding who should go in is virtually impossible IMO. Obviously many disagree, but I think if we tried it would become apparent. What did he exhibit numerous signs of? Of being "abnormal", certainly. But no way are we going to institutionalize everyone who is "off" - that seriously could almost be all people if you looked into the details of their lives and picked their strangest, most out of control moments. I know it's easy to look at him and say "well he is clearly more off than most" but you still have to specify what your criteria is. Even if it was pervasive social ineptness, that would involve institutionalizing a huge amount of people on the autism spectrum who have no higher risk of violence.

It would seem obvious that this person had issues early on and they progressed at an alarming rate and intensity. It is also apparent that numerous people were aware of his perceptions or delusions.

Almost any of the reported, obvious and apparent problems are enough to have him "helped" or removed from society.

The only issue with that, is that the very ones that created this problem of no exit loop(civil libertarians, shrinks, and politicians) are the ones that can't seem to see a way to solve it.

ER is a classic example of over reliance on anti psychotic drugs and depending on society to just live with it rather than provide a more permanent solution.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

But I have my doubts that he presented to ANYBODY as inherently dangerous, except maybe as a danger to himself. He was manipulative. Who would have made the decision to lock him up? His therapists? I wonder if they were ever able to get deep enough into the real Elliot to even see the risk he posed. It's possible to sit through years of therapy and seem to be participating while never really revealing yourself. I've even seen children do it.

As much as the Elliots of the world scare me, so does the thought of locking people away as a just-in-case solution.

I don't know the answer. Better screening protocol, I guess. Figure out how to cut through the manipulation and get to the truth.

BBM: That's not true, Flutter. He confided in quite a few friends his alarming anger and devious plans to some other young men. He scared his stepmother enough that she wanted him out, asap at age 18. He even then would still come over, open the door unannounced and just drop a jar on the floor and leave.
We haven't heard of significant torturing to animals (and we might, we just might) or what his caretakers, siblings have to say.
ER admitted to soaking passerbys a few times.
He tried to throw women off a ledge at a party.
He (probably falsely) caused a citizens arrest of one of his roommies over candles.
He played his music extra loud to get his roommies aggravated.
He made oddball videos a month before he went on his threatened rampage but delayed taking action due to a cold.

We are just touching the tip of the iceberg when it comes to ER. I believe there will be some Titanic moments albeit the fear of lawsuits and counter-lawsuits will deter some from talking. And then there's guilt that may stop others from speaking out 'cause they may feel there was a lot more they could've done.

 

[Elley Mae]

The rampage came hours after Rodger emailed a lengthy manifesto to his parents, therapists and others, and a month after sheriff's deputies had visited him on a welfare check after his parents became concerned about his postings on YouTube.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-05-27-19-43-58


bbm

 

[lawstudent]

Almost any of the reported, obvious and apparent problems are enough to have him "helped" or removed from society.

The only issue with that, is that the very ones that created this problem of no exit loop(civil libertarians, shrinks, and politicians) are the ones that can't seem to see a way to solve it.

Which ones? How were they enough? And to that list, I'd add the public and businesses. I believe the biggest barrier we will ever have to institutionalization will be cost. No one wants to pay that health insurance or fund the system through taxes. The old institutions would not satisfy anyone today on either side of the issue. We already can't finance nearly enough beds.

Going off the post after yours, which delineates some of the signs:

BBM: That's not true, Flutter. He confided in quite a few friends his alarming anger and devious plans to some other young men. He scared his stepmother enough that she wanted him out, asap at age 18. He even then would still come over, open the door unannounced and just drop a jar on the floor and leave.
We haven't heard of significant torturing to animals (and we might, we just might) or what his caretakers, siblings have to say.
ER admitted to soaking passerbys a few times.
He tried to throw women off a ledge at a party.
He (probably falsely) caused a citizens arrest of one of his roommies over candles.
He played his music extra loud to get his roommies aggravated.
He made oddball videos a month before he went on his threatened rampage but delayed taking action due to a cold.

.

1) I don't know what he told his friends, so I can't comment on that.
2) We don't know why his stepmother didn't want him around - I think we can all guess why she wasn't thrilled with him, but being kicked out by your parents does not lead to institutionalization. Many, many young people clash with their parents/stepparents over rules and behaviors. If he was being really scary, then he could have been institutionalized for at least some time. But nothing demonstrates that at this point. Dropping a jar isn't a committable offense, nor is trespassing. Either way, the stepmother didn't alert anyone, so she would be as culpable as his parents.
3) Well until we hear about him torturing animals, that's so extremely speculative that it has no value at all.
4) Soaking passerbys is not a committable offense. It could be assault. If you committed every teen who acted like a punk at one point, half the population would be in institutions.
5) The complications with that issue have been discussed re: his injuries.
6) "Probably falsely" is not enough to get you committed, nor is getting someone arrested. This is all criminal activity.
7) Playing music extra loudly - I hope that isn't a committable offense because now we've probably got 99% of young people incarcerated.
8) The videos may have been enough to get him committed, but if no one knew about them, what do we do? Too much is posted on the Internet to monitor.

Now, I know as a whole, you look at this and say "this kid had serious issues." But if a lot of it is unreported, and a lot of it is speculation or unconfirmable, you are left with a few incidents that taken alone, as they inevitably are since they were directed at different people, are absolutely not enough for committment, nor should they be.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

We're famous, lol! I wonder if I was quoted.

If you were quoted... can I have your autograph? :cool2:

:floorlaugh:

 

[jjenny]

The rampage came hours after Rodger emailed a lengthy manifesto to his parents, therapists and others, and a month after sheriff's deputies had visited him on a welfare check after his parents became concerned about his postings on YouTube.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-05-27-19-43-58


bbm

I don't know if that is actually correct. But anyhow, one would have to read it first, and it's quite long before he gets to his plan to start killing people.

 

[mikeysmommom]

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/05/elliott-rodger-psychiatrist-mental-health-hunger-games/

UCSB mass shooter Elliott Rodger hadn&#8217;t been seen by a psychiatrist since 2012 (though he had been treated by psychologists) but RadarOnline.com has learned exclusively his parents, Hunger Games art director Peter Rodger and ex-wife Chin now recognize their troubled son should have been in intensive treatment for his mental health issues.

Elliott&#8217;s 141-page manifesto mentions in 2012 that he had been treated by psychiatrist Dr. Charles Sophy and refused to take medication that was prescribed to him.

RadarOnline.com has learned exclusively that Elliott &#8220;only saw Dr. Sophy less than three times, and refused to go back to see him,&#8221; adding that his parents &#8220;felt powerless&#8221; in their ability to make a difference in the situation.

I want to know what they did to help him from the beginning when they all knew he was very very ill as his Grandmother and Aunt have said. I am very uncomfortable when I read that he changed schools so many times, some for the divorce,some because of kids but the last school he went was for just 3 hrs a day an alternative school is that for actors or is it for kids with mental health problems.

 

[mikeysmommom]

We're famous, lol! I wonder if I was quoted.

People here are super sleuthers lol.Some have even helped cases like the Dee Dee Moore case, the woman who was convicted of murdering Florida lottery winner Abraham Shakespeare,She even posted here. I have said if I ever go missing to please come here as soon as possible so I might have a chance of being found. I wish I was like a lot of the terrific sleuths we have on this site.

 

[gitana1]

Hm. A different look at it

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/29/ronald_reagans_shameful_legacy_violence_the_homeless_mental_illness/

Seriously. It is quite well known that it was mostly Reagan (and other')s policies that led to the end of institutionalized care for the mentally ill, in California:
HOW RELEASE OF MENTAL PATIENTS BEGAN

By RICHARD D. LYONS

Published: October 30, 1984

THE policy that led to the release of most of the nation's mentally ill patients from the hospital to the community is now widely regarded as a major failure.
http://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/30/science/how-release-of-mental-patients-began.html

But I really can't think of what would've helped this guy. He was crafty enough to hide the seriousness of his delusions until it was too late. If he had lived, he'd never have had been able to be deemed not guilty by reason of insanity.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Which ones? How were they enough? And to that list, I'd add the public and businesses. I believe the biggest barrier we will ever have to institutionalization will be cost. No one wants to pay that health insurance or fund the system through taxes. The old institutions would not satisfy anyone today on either side of the issue. We already can't finance nearly enough beds.

Going off the post after yours, which delineates some of the signs:



1) I don't know what he told his friends, so I can't comment on that.
2) We don't know why his stepmother didn't want him around - I think we can all guess why she wasn't thrilled with him, but being kicked out by your parents does not lead to institutionalization. Many, many young people clash with their parents/stepparents over rules and behaviors. If he was being really scary, then he could have been institutionalized for at least some time. But nothing demonstrates that at this point. Dropping a jar isn't a committable offense, nor is trespassing. Either way, the stepmother didn't alert anyone, so she would be as culpable as his parents.
3) Well until we hear about him torturing animals, that's so extremely speculative that it has no value at all.
4) Soaking passerbys is not a committable offense. It could be assault. If you committed every teen who acted like a punk at one point, half the population would be in institutions.
5) The complications with that issue have been discussed re: his injuries.
6) "Probably falsely" is not enough to get you committed, nor is getting someone arrested. This is all criminal activity.
7) Playing music extra loudly - I hope that isn't a committable offense because now we've probably got 99% of young people incarcerated.
8) The videos may have been enough to get him committed, but if no one knew about them, what do we do? Too much is posted on the Internet to monitor.

Now, I know as a whole, you look at this and say "this kid had serious issues." But if a lot of it is unreported, and a lot of it is speculation or unconfirmable, you are left with a few incidents that taken alone, as they inevitably are since they were directed at different people, are absolutely not enough for committment, nor should they be.

Lawstudent----your retorts are focused around "institutionalization" yet I was responding to Flutter's comment that he didn't display any harmful thoughts or behavior to anyone (just himself). I was not talking grounds for "institutionalization"....of which I am formally aware.

 

[Quester]

The rampage came hours after Rodger emailed a lengthy manifesto to his parents, therapists and others, and a month after sheriff's deputies had visited him on a welfare check after his parents became concerned about his postings on YouTube.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-05-27-19-43-58


bbm

Rut roh! So which is it? Manifesto emailed hours before rampage began or just before 9:17pm, minutes before rampage began?

So which is it? "Rodger was diagnosed as being a high-functioning patient with Asperger syndrome" OR "had not been diagnosed with Aspergers but the family suspected he was on the spectrum"?