CA - Elliot Rodger kills 6, injures 13 in Isla Vista, Near UC Santa Barbara, #2

[CARIIS]

I dont know why it did it that way - and when I caught it i I made it clearer!

I was responding to this post by another poster:

RE" I can't quite grasp how anyone who is schooled and trained to look for mental disease and/or defect could be so manipulated by someone like ER. They're trained to catch these things.

but it looked like it was part of my post !



I retired in 05. It got better (LE) in the later years but LE did not want to deal with mentally ill (1993 to like 1999) it was really bad I always back then thought their deal was the paperwork !

And look how long it took the LE system to grasp domestic violence as real and often did not charge anyone!

I did (private hosp in-pt at that time, and sadly this may blow your mind(!)) but back then our typical length stay was 3-5 weeks (Great)

Fast forward 8 years it went to 23 hours , and d/c - disgusting

Your still practicing what is the pattern today in terms of length of stay?
Pt -Client ratios?

Curious if that too has been cut?

Someone from the Dermond thread said I should drop in over here, as I work at a psychiatric treatment facility for kids 6-18yo. I haven't had time to go back and read everything about ER, but his youtube videos were jarring to me.

I have to admit that my first thoughts were who initially influenced his views on women? Extreme views like that don't just appear out of nowhere. I don't want to blame his parents, but in the cases of kids I work with, it very often goes back to some sort of severe family dysfunction, trauma/abuse, neglect, or having really poor examples as parents.

It's not their fault AT ALL that he did this, and I know they did all they could to help. I'm sure a lot of this is biological, but there also had to be some unhealthy but strong influences in his life that made things worse.

If anyone has any questions about residential facilities aka "placements," please feel free to ask while I catch up on all this!

I responded to this particular post though because I have had a bad experience with LE officers in relation to mental health when I was the victim in a domestic violence situation. It's a very long story, but I wrestled a loaded shotgun gun from this persons hands after he had destroyed half our house with a baseball bat and thought I was going to end up dead. I begged the officers to have him assessed, but they refused because he wasn't telling THEM he was suicidal. When he realized the cops were coming, he actually hid the gun and tried to leave the house. When they arrived, he turned on the charm to a degree that was disturbing. I could hear him just chattin' it up about random guy stuff with the other officer while I was writing my statement sobbing in our ransacked home. He destroyed four house phones and threw my cell phone in the yard when I tried to call 911/they tried to call back.

That situation made me lose nearly all my faith in our current mental health system, and in the legal system's ability to deal with mental illness or protect victims of domestic violence. Dealing with the cops and later, the legal system, was almost more traumatizing than the incident itself.

I think LE officers hands are tied in many situations they shouldn't be, and they also need much better training. Psychopaths are incredibly charming and manipulative.

 

[gajonka]

Snipped & BBM

That would be me. :blushing: Glad to see you made it. Interested in reading your insightful views on this tragedy.
:seeya:

WELCOME!!! This is a Mega-Sleuth thread - ColdPizza l Leader.

Best,

G

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Since you are the expert here, can you please tell me if there is a difference between a psychopath and a sociopath? Are they synonymous? TIA

I am very comfortable and confident in my answer, so once again I'll repeat it here if you don't mind, Suth.
They are very much a different diagnosis.

And I'll add an odd little tidbit : A Psychopath is always (and I mean always) a Narcissist.

 

[mikeysmommom]

Hi!

I may be late - but just in case:

• Heaven is a Place On Earth, B. Carlisle
  
• Promises, Promises, Naked Eyes
  
• Walking on Sunshine, Katrina and the Waves
  
• Can't Hurry :Love, P. Collins
  
• The Police, (insert song) - Maybe "Every Breath You take"

Sorry so sloppy.

Luv ya,

G

TY so much but I looked up your post and found them.PS I am not a stalked just impatient lol.
I found the link you posted of the Joker, I am probably the only one who has never seen it or that movie so it was my first time seeing it,

At the 20 second mark............. Every word from that point on CHILLING ! IMO was ER "speaking" to the best friend that did the right thing and told his family of his dark twisted mind after it was too late to stop it. What a sick Sadistic psychopath to want his friend and family to feel the weight of these murders. CHILLING

 

[mikeysmommom]

As far as the Dad wanting his own evaluation done and More Visitation, Paying less child support.

He was having financial problems after sinking in his own money into his God film.He also traveled a lot.When it came out it only grossed IIRC 40,000 00 So he lost big time.That was when ER addressed dad as a loser .So when he asked for a reduction in 1998 ? he really was in a financial bind he was remarried but no kids at that point. Remember his job was not a 9 to 5 with a paycheck weekly. This was before he was working on hunger games.
As far as more visitation he wanted to see his children and most likely wanted his son ,daughter to be around his new wife hoping they woulld meld into a family unit. Is that a bad thing? NO a father has a right to be with his children 50/50 unless unfit. Mothers also make new lives remarry, Or is it only okay for a mom to work and leave children in daycare or with a nanny or a new spouse. As far as the medical evaluation if this was not talked about between BOTH parents he did the right thing insuring there was a problem when maybe ER just seemed painfully shy and was just a loner, some people are and are normal. If he worked alot he might not of saw all the mom saw. Maybe that is when he realized I need to be around him more. When I read the paperwork the only thing that I thought was a unrealistic was the wife who had been a Nurse on movie sets refused to work as an RN, so at that time not contributing to her own house hold when the kids are in school a full day, because she had IMO told him she wanted to be a Movie executive which IMO is delusional ! She is also responsible to provide for her children 50/50. I see nothing wrong with what the dad was doing when he diid have the money paid it and they lived close which IMO every thing seemed geared in the interest of the kids as it should be.

 

[Tricia]

Tonight (Thursday) 8 PM Eastern on iHeart's True Crime Radio Body Language Expert Dr. Lillian Glass.

Dr. Glass has done extensive research into Elliot Rodgers and will share her observations with us tonight.

Please join us. 8 PM EASTERN tonight and every Thursday night on iHeart Radio.
CLICK HERE 8 PM Eastern tonight to listen live.

I hope you will join us.

If you miss tonight's show you can GO HERE and listen to past shows.

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING!!!

Tricia









...

 

[Suthrnqt]

I am very comfortable and confident in my answer, so once again I'll repeat it here if you don't mind, Suth.
They are very much a different diagnosis.

And I'll add an odd little tidbit : A Psychopath is always (and I mean always) a Narcissist.

Thanks so much Honey. So many here have said that psycopath and sociopath are synonyms. I didn't think that was so, but I wasn't really sure. I will add your little tidbit to my notes.
I once had a psych professor who explained the cluster types as:

Cluster A- mad
Cluster B- bad
Cluster C- sad

Simplistic by some standards, but it helped with classifications.

 

[Colbie]

Hello, I have been a lurker for a while now on Websleuths but have never posted...

I'm a psychotherapist and it alarms me that so many people are saying that his therapists should have been able to diagnose him or realize that he was a threat to himself or others. Please let it be known that therapists are not psychics!

It is very difficult to diagnose a manipulative client, and one that hasn't ever been involved in the legal system. We need symptoms to diagnose, and if those symptoms are not made available via client report/presentation, family, or client systems report, it is virtually impossible to come up with an accurate diagnosis. I believe that psychopathy can be easily misdiagnosed as Asperger's, but it is definitely possible to have both as one does not rule out the other. There is a saying in my industry: "You can't work harder than the client." If ER was not an active participant in therapy, then the therapists are left with an inaccurate picture much of the time and thus unable to accurately treat. I have my own private practice, and I terminate therapy with clients who are not participating/nonadherent to my treatment plan as it is a waste of their time and mine. I also cannot talk to family members of any of my adult patients unless my patient writes a release of information giving me permission to speak to them. In fact, I can't even acknowledge they are my client if family members call wanting to give me information.

We also don't know how many times he had seen therapists. I find it likely that he would not attend consistently and also terminate prematurely. Additionally, it is extremely difficult to treat someone who is psychotic, manic, delusional or paranoid when they are not taking their medication. I personally do not see any client displaying these symptoms until I can get a letter from the psychiatrist that they have been medically managed for 3+ months. This is mainly due to the fact that I work all by myself and I need patients with these symptoms to be accurately medicated for my own safety reasons. Many people who work in community mental health do not have this option, and rightly so.

An involuntary outpatient commitment could have been an option for ER in addition to involuntary inpatient commitment, as well as his parents getting conservatorship. However, these options are very hard to get, although I feel the involuntary outpatient commitment should be more readily available for those who have severe mental illness. Risperidone is available in a monthly shot as well and I feel that this should be used more readily in community mental health settings with people who have severe mental illness. However, if a patient does not share information with a mental health professional about plans to hurt himself or others, there is no duty to warn--in fact, we can be sued if we do so without such threats. In these cases patients often fly under the radar.

I have an aunt who is paranoid schizophrenic and has had 5 involuntary commitments due to the fact that she threatened others in our presence. She is extremely intelligent and figured out quickly how to get discharged. However, when we attempted to get conservatorship, she went missing for 3 years. To this day she doesn't adhere to her medication. We even found out that she bought a Glock in Texas AFTER she had already been institutionalized 4 times. Extremely scary. When I called to see if she had another gun in Nevada, where she had moved, no one was able to tell me if she had a gun or if she had ever applied to get one. We cannot force her to take her medicine as she is an adult. We cannot have her institutionalized again because she refuses to speak to us, and thus we have no more threatening statements from her.

Deinstitutionalization had many setbacks, and the biggest problem has been getting help for family members when you do not have threats of violence. I'm not sure what the answer is, because people with severe mental illness are warranted their own civil rights. Its definitely a major problem as a family member of a paranoid schizophrenic as well as a therapist.

JMO

 

[mrsobrien]

Welcome Colbie! Please stay, we need your expertise.

 

[gajonka]

As far as the Dad wanting his own evaluation done and More Visitation, Paying less child support.

He was having financial problems after sinking in his own money into his God film.He also traveled a lot.When it came out it only grossed IIRC 40,000 00 So he lost big time.That was when ER addressed dad as a loser .So when he asked for a reduction in 1998 ? he really was in a financial bind he was remarried but no kids at that point. Remember his job was not a 9 to 5 with a paycheck weekly. This was before he was working on hunger games.
As far as more visitation he wanted to see his children and most likely wanted his son ,daughter to be around his new wife hoping they woulld meld into a family unit. Is that a bad thing? NO a father has a right to be with his children 50/50 unless unfit. Mothers also make new lives remarry, Or is it only okay for a mom to work and leave children in daycare or with a nanny or a new spouse. As far as the medical evaluation if this was not talked about between BOTH parents he did the right thing insuring there was a problem when maybe ER just seemed painfully shy and was just a loner, some people are and are normal. If he worked alot he might not of saw all the mom saw. Maybe that is when he realized I need to be around him more. When I read the paperwork the only thing that I thought was a unrealistic was the wife who had been a Nurse on movie sets refused to work as an RN, so at that time not contributing to her own house hold when the kids are in school a full day, because she had IMO told him she wanted to be a Movie executive which IMO is delusional ! She is also responsible to provide for her children 50/50. I see nothing wrong with what the dad was doing when he diid have the money paid it and they lived close which IMO every thing seemed geared in the interest of the kids as it should be.

Nice work - I believe you have uncovered a cause which may represent the most significant area of this kid's life. This is what I was thinking...

The 19th Birthday - No phone call, just a letter. "Apologize to my wife." About as cold as a block of Ellios Frozen Pizza... colder than a stack of Steakums. Can you imagine? DOes this letter arrive on time? But wait, there's more...

HYPOTHETICAL​

How did Peter Rodger let this get so far? He offered an indication of having a vested interest when he paired Elliot up with Karl and his spiral staircase.

We now know... this kid... the self proclaimed " void of any talent" 22 year old... his writing ability, and effective grip on mechanics, grammar, punctuation, and structure is first rate. He may have been a white belt in Karate class, but he was a black belt in the writing realm.

How does a father - who floats on the outer circle of Hollywood, not discover this - and if he did - hoe does he do nothing to support ER's confidence?

The Mom offered helpful guidance, suggesting he write. This fizzled.

I am convinced Peter could have done a bit more... as a writer myself... this 137 pager is high quality composition. He has it all - the perfect mix of big words, too, one of the most important qualifiers in the writing game. An area that KO's many , many dreams.

We will learn more , that is for sure... but just think about it... Elliot Rodger considered himself a man of no talent... and for someone to apply such a definition to himself, given the ability demonstrated... well, that's bizarre... and it leads me to offer up a critical take on PR.

Luv ya,

G

 

[Flutterby80]

Hello, I have been a lurker for a while now on Websleuths but have never posted...

I'm a psychotherapist and it alarms me that so many people are saying that his therapists should have been able to diagnose him or realize that he was a threat to himself or others. Please let it be known that therapists are not psychics!

It is very difficult to diagnose a manipulative client, and one that hasn't ever been involved in the legal system. We need symptoms to diagnose, and if those symptoms are not made available via client report/presentation, family, or client systems report, it is virtually impossible to come up with an accurate diagnosis. I believe that psychopathy can be easily misdiagnosed as Asperger's, but it is definitely possible to have both as one does not rule out the other. There is a saying in my industry: "You can't work harder than the client." If ER was not an active participant in therapy, then the therapists are left with an inaccurate picture much of the time and thus unable to accurately treat. I have my own private practice, and I terminate therapy with clients who are not participating/nonadherent to my treatment plan as it is a waste of their time and mine. I also cannot talk to family members of any of my adult patients unless my patient writes a release of information giving me permission to speak to them. In fact, I can't even acknowledge they are my client if family members call wanting to give me information.

We also don't know how many times he had seen therapists. I find it likely that he would not attend consistently and also terminate prematurely. Additionally, it is extremely difficult to treat someone who is psychotic, manic, delusional or paranoid when they are not taking their medication. I personally do not see any client displaying these symptoms until I can get a letter from the psychiatrist that they have been medically managed for 3+ months. This is mainly due to the fact that I work all by myself and I need patients with these symptoms to be accurately medicated for my own safety reasons. Many people who work in community mental health do not have this option, and rightly so.

An involuntary outpatient commitment could have been an option for ER in addition to involuntary inpatient commitment, as well as his parents getting conservatorship. However, these options are very hard to get, although I feel the involuntary outpatient commitment should be more readily available for those who have severe mental illness. Risperidone is available in a monthly shot as well and I feel that this should be used more readily in community mental health settings with people who have severe mental illness. However, if a patient does not share information with a mental health professional about plans to hurt himself or others, there is no duty to warn--in fact, we can be sued if we do so without such threats. In these cases patients often fly under the radar.

I have an aunt who is paranoid schizophrenic and has had 5 involuntary commitments due to the fact that she threatened others in our presence. She is extremely intelligent and figured out quickly how to get discharged. However, when we attempted to get conservatorship, she went missing for 3 years. To this day she doesn't adhere to her medication. We even found out that she bought a Glock in Texas AFTER she had already been institutionalized 4 times. Extremely scary. When I called to see if she had another gun in Nevada, where she had moved, no one was able to tell me if she had a gun or if she had ever applied to get one. We cannot force her to take her medicine as she is an adult. We cannot have her institutionalized again because she refuses to speak to us, and thus we have no more threatening statements from her.

Deinstitutionalization had many setbacks, and the biggest problem has been getting help for family members when you do not have threats of violence. I'm not sure what the answer is, because people with severe mental illness are warranted their own civil rights. Its definitely a major problem as a family member of a paranoid schizophrenic as well as a therapist.

JMO

All of this ^^^ As I said earlier, I have even seen children go to therapy week after week and reveal nothing, either through unapologetic stonewalling, bull$%!tting or a combination of both. You can literally go for years without making any progress. If a person doesn't want to reveal themselves, they won't. Sometimes it's fear, sometimes they don't think they are the one with a problem.

 

[zoran]

how did a pip squeak like him kill 3 men with a knife? surely they didn't go quietly in their sleep?

 

[Flutterby80]

Nice work - I believe you have uncovered a cause which may represent the most significant area of this kid's life. This is what I was thinking...

The 19th Birthday - No phone call, just a letter. "Apologize to my wife." About as cold as a block of Ellios Frozen Pizza... colder than a stack of Steakums. Can you imagine? DOes this letter arrive on time? But wait, there's more...

HYPOTHETICAL​

How did Peter Rodger let this get so far? He offered an indication of having a vested interest when he paired Elliot up with Karl and his spiral staircase.

We now know... this kid... the self proclaimed " void of any talent" 22 year old... his writing ability, and effecting grip on mechanics, grammar, punctuation, and structure is first rate. He may have been a whote belt in Karate class, but he was a black belt in the writing realm.

How does a father - who floats on the outer circle of Hollywood, not discover this - and if he did - hoe does he do nothing to support ER's confidence?

The Mom offered helpful guidance, suggesting he write. This fizzled.

I am convinced Peter could have done a bit more... as a writer myself... this 137 pager is high quality composition. He has it all - the perfect mix of big words, too, one of the most important qualifiers in the writing game. An area that KO's many , many dreams.

We will learn more , that is for sure... but just think about it... Elliot Rodger considered himself a man of no talent... and for someone to apply such a definition to himself, given the ability demonstrated... well, that's bizarre... and it leads me to offer up a critical take on PR.

Luv ya,

G

He also considered himself rejected by women, when there is no indication that he EVER made an effort to engage with one. He considered himself brilliant, but wrote that he got "the grade of B" at community college in the couple of classes he didn't drop.

He considered himself above doing anything for himself that didn't involve both HUGE payoff and minimal effort. He said himself that he was only interested in writing if he could write one epic novel, do it in a short period of time, make a ton of money, then never have to bother with it again. When he figured out it was going to take time, and actual work, he discarded the idea.

His view of himself, as well of the rest of the world, was very skewed. Not sure mom or dad could have headed this off by being more attentive.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

It's a wonder that the email was seen so quickly. Could have been much worse, as us old folks don't necessarily check our email every 5 minutes.

The call from the therapists had to have been prompted by the video. You can't read that manifesto that quickly, in fact I'm not sure I can finish it.

Most people logically start at the beginning and don't jump to the end. It's like reading a book. You could jump to the end to see whodunit, or what the outcome of the story is, but it will make more sense to you to start at the beginning. The therapist may have been savvy enough about patients to skip to the end of his long-winded memoir to see what the ultimate gist of it was. The sheer size of it may have been a red flag.

The therapist may also have had some message filters that trigger on certain keywords or phrases such as "slaughter", "blood", "revenge", "gun", etc., along with a certain filesize or # of lines. The average person may have message filters to try to eliminate spam or possibly highlight mail they DO want to see, but someone who deals with potentially dangerous or at risk people may have different criteria.

I wonder if there is special software to assist various specialties in that regard. It would make sense. Someone could do it manually, but it would be time-consuming and it takes some knowledge of how things like that work. For instance, the order of when each message filter fires can make a difference, and one has to be careful not to make a filter too generalized. Most people know enough to filter out the word for a certain male body part, since the majority of spam refers to it, but a mental health professional also needs to consider that from the point of view of a patient who may or may not plan to do something to or with that body part (or someone ELSE's body part), so filtering out any message containing that word is not prudent in their field.

Nowadays there are often massive spam filters in place on the email provider's side before the user even gets the email, but they also tend to make a special place for it so that the user can skim it to look for mail that may have inadvertently landed in the Spam folder.

 

[gajonka]

Tonight (Thursday) 8 PM Eastern on iHeart's True Crime Radio Body Language Expert Dr. Lillian Glass.

Dr. Glass has done extensive research into Elliot Rodgers and will share her observations with us tonight.

Please join us. 8 PM EASTERN tonight and every Thursday night on iHeart Radio.
CLICK HERE 8 PM Eastern tonight to listen live.

I hope you will join us.

If you miss tonight's show you can GO HERE and listen to past shows.

THANK YOU FOR LISTENING!!!

Tricia

Yay! Hooray! VERY COOL - looking forward to rolling up the sleeves and enjoying the wonderful insight... his way of expression is ripe for analyses... while he employs a repetitive pattern in his speech which includes the key words "Magnificent," "Supreme," "intelligent," "sophisticated," he displays a unique gits in his writing for possessing a quality range of big words. T + L's take will be nice to hear.
Luv ya,
The G

 

[CARIIS]

Hello, I have been a lurker for a while now on Websleuths but have never posted...

I'm a psychotherapist and it alarms me that so many people are saying that his therapists should have been able to diagnose him or realize that he was a threat to himself or others. Please let it be known that therapists are not psychics!

It is very difficult to diagnose a manipulative client, and one that hasn't ever been involved in the legal system. We need symptoms to diagnose, and if those symptoms are not made available via client report/presentation, family, or client systems report, it is virtually impossible to come up with an accurate diagnosis. I believe that psychopathy can be easily misdiagnosed as Asperger's, but it is definitely possible to have both as one does not rule out the other. There is a saying in my industry: "You can't work harder than the client." If ER was not an active participant in therapy, then the therapists are left with an inaccurate picture much of the time and thus unable to accurately treat. I have my own private practice, and I terminate therapy with clients who are not participating/nonadherent to my treatment plan as it is a waste of their time and mine. I also cannot talk to family members of any of my adult patients unless my patient writes a release of information giving me permission to speak to them. In fact, I can't even acknowledge they are my client if family members call wanting to give me information.

We also don't know how many times he had seen therapists. I find it likely that he would not attend consistently and also terminate prematurely. Additionally, it is extremely difficult to treat someone who is psychotic, manic, delusional or paranoid when they are not taking their medication. I personally do not see any client displaying these symptoms until I can get a letter from the psychiatrist that they have been medically managed for 3+ months. This is mainly due to the fact that I work all by myself and I need patients with these symptoms to be accurately medicated for my own safety reasons. Many people who work in community mental health do not have this option, and rightly so.

An involuntary outpatient commitment could have been an option for ER in addition to involuntary inpatient commitment, as well as his parents getting conservatorship. However, these options are very hard to get, although I feel the involuntary outpatient commitment should be more readily available for those who have severe mental illness. Risperidone is available in a monthly shot as well and I feel that this should be used more readily in community mental health settings with people who have severe mental illness. However, if a patient does not share information with a mental health professional about plans to hurt himself or others, there is no duty to warn--in fact, we can be sued if we do so without such threats. In these cases patients often fly under the radar.

I have an aunt who is paranoid schizophrenic and has had 5 involuntary commitments due to the fact that she threatened others in our presence. She is extremely intelligent and figured out quickly how to get discharged. However, when we attempted to get conservatorship, she went missing for 3 years. To this day she doesn't adhere to her medication. We even found out that she bought a Glock in Texas AFTER she had already been institutionalized 4 times. Extremely scary. When I called to see if she had another gun in Nevada, where she had moved, no one was able to tell me if she had a gun or if she had ever applied to get one. We cannot force her to take her medicine as she is an adult. We cannot have her institutionalized again because she refuses to speak to us, and thus we have no more threatening statements from her.

Deinstitutionalization had many setbacks, and the biggest problem has been getting help for family members when you do not have threats of violence. I'm not sure what the answer is, because people with severe mental illness are warranted their own civil rights. Its definitely a major problem as a family member of a paranoid schizophrenic as well as a therapist.

JMO

Awesome, glad your here, and here is one of your treatment plan goals
-Colbie will reduce his/her lurking on WS and continue to share 4 X per week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[bettybaby00]

[FONT=&quot] The media is making it like this is a concrete entity, when the reality is it is a very complicated deal.[/FONT]

What we are talking about here is called “Duty to Warn”. It is a very complicated entity. The core “deal” in therapy is confidentiality and privileged communication. It is the soul of therapy- the client can show oneself “warts” and all and know that no one else will know what is discussed. This is vital.

We in the field respect it, but it can be a tricky line. Any time most of us had to call , we would usually bring a colleague in so together we can access lethality.

In some states we are mandated reporters Chiropractors, dentists, emergency medical personnel, licensed practical nurses, medical examiners, mental health professionals, osteopaths, pharmacists, physicians, physicians’ assistants, psychologists, registered nurses, surgeons, and any other health care provide ……………….more

· I think where folks anger is coming from what we now know. If someone tells me they want to kill themselves you evaluate father. (when where how) . If they can answer that type of thing: “I have 100 Xanax at home, and tonight before my husband comes I am going to get in the bathroom and take them all”. CALL!
Let’s say the same person

Do you feel like hurting yourself. No. Obviously professionally there is a reason why one would ask. Further assessment – you feel like they are not being truthful. Go a few minutes and you are looking for degree of “helplessness ”““hopelessness”.

“ No I will not kill myself but I really don’t have anything to live for” is a markedly different repose to “do you feel like hurting yourself?” and the reply is “I have thought about sometimes but think of what it would do to my children and husband”. That is data. There is something in the clients that they value, want need etc.

Ok feeling better about not calling. The danger, in order to call MUST be imminent.

. Next phase explain that you have some concerns about their safety and that is only thing I am concerned about. Are you willing to contract with me that should you start thinking about jutting yourself that will you call me, the hospital or whatever – the deal here is you want them to commit to reach out if needed. (you write down several phone numbers (crisis center, LE the community center the hospital etc. etc.

Their response to contracting for safety is also data. If the client quickly easily agrees to it, asks questions (will x hospital take Humana) there is intent to follow through. And remember, if the Clint has been working with you there is great trust, you know the client etc. In the therapeutic relationship and the invested client in most instances will not lie (varies!). However if there is resistance, indifference paying no attention tone of voice (I.e. “yen I’ll call someone”) that too is data.

You can get more data when done, ask back to review the plan, if they do it with no real interest –“ Ok fine I’ll call the cops if I feel like hurting myself ok.” That is data a different than “If I feel like hurting myself first I will call my husband, and then if I feel I want to try soon I will call police and if I feel like I can drive myself to X hospital on Smith street and admit myself “. That too is data.

Is there a history of attention getting suicidal history – less lethality

Is the spouse over his/ her mental BS or committed , understands it etc. that also influences decisions.

If had a spouse (confidentiality) I would get the release to talk to the spouse about my concerns. Now that can also be data –if the person just denied suicidal thoughts but does not want to sign the release for me to contact spouse – there is a reason for that (getting closer to making the call to LE!) IF they willingly without hesitation sign the release that too is data (they want safety they will reach out to get help)

It is a judgment call, it is based on many variables, it is fluid the first week of the month you can have abovementioned dialog and three weeks later that entire session could be totally different. It is not a concrete thing.

Judgment in any context can be wrong. It is being human .And honestly, it’s a more difficult “call” than looking at an X-Ray , seeing a torn ligament and know you need to do surgery!


·
·

Very informative, thank you.

Dr. drew's show was irritating me so much. Everything was the parents, the parents etc. if only he had been loved, blah, blah.

I'm sure his parents made mistakes, but that isn't likely the whole story.

And they kept "listing" that he was addicted to:
Violent video games
Music
*advertiser censored*

All the worst things for someone isolated, and vulnerable.

They have no idea if that is true, why do they they perpetuate such stuff?

I'm probably. Not making any sense, still on my first cup of coffee :blushing:

 

[gajonka]

He also considered himself rejected by women, when there is no indication that he EVER made an effort to engage with one. He considered himself brilliant, but wrote that he got "the grade of B" at community college in the couple of classes he didn't drop.

He considered himself above doing anything for himself that didn't involve both HUGE payoff and minimal effort. He said himself that he was only interested in writing if he could write one epic novel, do it in a short period of time, make a ton of money, then never have to bother with it again. When he figured out it was going to take time, and actual work, he discarded the idea.

His view of himself, as well of the rest of the world, was very skewed. Not sure mom or dad could have headed this off by being more attentive.

True - his rejection fears stem from never ever as it were) actually being proactive about introducing himself, or even conducting some type of effort. I am not putting it on the parent's - no way - but it comes up when looking in that direction.

 

[CARIIS]

He also considered himself rejected by women, when there is no indication that he EVER made an effort to engage with one. He considered himself brilliant, but wrote that he got "the grade of B" at community college in the couple of classes he didn't drop.

He considered himself above doing anything for himself that didn't involve both HUGE payoff and minimal effort. He said himself that he was only interested in writing if he could write one epic novel, do it in a short period of time, make a ton of money, then never have to bother with it again. When he figured out it was going to take time, and actual work, he discarded the idea.

His view of himself, as well of the rest of the world, was very skewed. Not sure mom or dad could have headed this off by being more attentive.

....when there is no indication that he EVER made an effort to engage with one.
That is the cornerstone of the illness , akin to blaming a double amputee for not jogging every day!

The reason why is because mental illness , by many, is not believed to be valid and identical to medical. And Imo, an important point here.Until society makes that leap mental illness will continue to go untreated because of lack of resources ($) and the rampages shall continue, that is sad, if we would make less bombs ..................................................

 

[Flutterby80]

Very informative, thank you.

Dr. drew's show was irritating me so much. Everything was the parents, the parents etc. if only he had been loved, blah, blah.

I'm sure his parents made mistakes, but that isn't likely the whole story.

And they kept "listing" that he was addicted to:
Violent video games
Music
*advertiser censored*

All the worst things for someone isolated, and vulnerable.

They have no idea if that is true, why do they they perpetuate such stuff?

I'm probably. Not making any sense, still on my first cup of coffee :blushing:

I totally understand...my coffee pot BROKE this morning and I have a job interview in 2 hours. McDonald's it is!

Interesting they say he was addicted to those things. I've not seen where he had a thing for *advertiser censored*. Did they find a stash in his apartment or something?

I am not a game person so I could be very wrong, but it seems like the video games he played were more fantasy than violence. I've seen Grand Theft Auto. He played World of Warcraft. Does anyone know how they compare?

And music? Do they mean the 80s pop stuff? I have to laugh at this one!