Found Deceased CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

[10ofRods]

RE: Tropical storm Hilary.
Thank you @Interested_But_Confused & @10ofRods for your wonderful explanations. I am map challenged but have been in a couple tropical storms & one hurricane. Wind was always a big issue during the storms I experienced. IDK if FJ's & JRF's remains were in a wind-sheltered location, how open/large the flat, ridge, wash, peak was or where they passed before the storm. IMO Wind gusts & rain together may have carried the remains to the areas found. Fang would have been carried farther away from the truck due to her smaller skeleton.

"The bone mass in the skeleton makes up about 14% of the total body weight." Human skeleton Wikipedia
IF a human skeleton weighs estimate approximately 12%-15% of body weight; Rods would know exactly but 14% is rough, average, close enough to figure if it's possible wind gusts could have helped move the skeletons.

JRF's remains would have been approx. (180 lbs X 14%) 25 lbs.
FJ's remains would have been approx. (110 lbs X 14%) 16 lbs. (Females are usually less than 14%.)
Both skeletons would have been under the 37 lb weight that can be moved by a minimum wind of 28 mph.
View attachment 462000
photo from abc7chicago wind lesson math


While we don't know the exact location of the truck and remains, the National Weather Service reported Hilary tropical storm peak wind speeds gathered in areas close at over 40 mph.
Peak wind speed reported:
Borrego Valley Airport 49 mph
Borrego 43 mph
Julian 48 mph
Hilary brings powerful winds to county

More a question about wind gusts and speculation from unscientific me.
JMO

If the remains had been blown by wind, how do you explain the jaw being next to the skull? Or the other remains (which appear fairly large) being close by?

Those are gusts of wind, not steady wind speeds. We had gusts of up to 40 mph in my area as well - nothing much blew away, but some tree branches did come down. The long bones would behave very differently from a skull in wind. The finger and toe bones could certainly have been blown by wind.

Since it is clear that some collagen still connected the jaw to the skull when those came to rest in the Canyon (IMO, it's clear), then decomp was not complete when those came to their resting place. To me, it looks like decomp mostly took place right at the place where we saw the pictures of the bones. No way wind blew those bones down the Canyon/Wash and deposited them as if they were anatomically related.

A gust of wind can move something, yes - usually very small distances, per gust. But the winds were *not* steady at 40 mph. They actually cycled. The steady wind is what is needed to move a 2-3 lb skull. (Skulls vary from 2-10 lbs in real life - and skeletons vary in weight as well; JRF looks average to me - so I'd figure 3 lbs. Gusts of wind would move a 3 lb object only a short distance (probably less than an inch), and it would also depend on whether the skull would (as is inevitable) get tipped onto its side, in which case, it would not move easily due to friction (don't forget to estimate friction - there's a reason that small rocks

Winds - Palm Springs area August 23 (this is the day with the most wind - gusts were up to 10 mph as I read this chart)
Winds - Palm Springs August 24

(note that nearby Palm Springs is at an altitude similar to Borrego Springs - and most data shown for Borrego Springs on national weather sites is actually coming from just outside of Palm Springs). Even if we quadruple those wind speeds to account for altitude, it's still a fact that Harper Flat is sheltered a bit from the south (by mountains), and that the flats down below (rather than higher up) always get more wind - just as they get more water. So people who live in lower sections of canyons got the worst of those winds but for the most part, no property damage reported). Winds are channeled down canyons and washes, just as water is.

I am not disputing that water has flowed over Harper Flat - and could have flowed there on August 23-24. I am disputing that skulls and jaws would travel together in that event, much less remain with other parts of the skeleton. A month is long enough for very considerable decomp and scavenging to occur. It was like a low oven out there. All the temps we read by official weather stations are taken in the shade.

120F is a low oven, perfect for drying things - and it is exceptionally dry there most of the time. While the windspeeds noted above might be lower, they still illustrate the nature of those winds - it was NOT 40 mph steady. Those were gusts. Bones lying on the granite of Harper Flat would have to overcome the friction of granite - neither the long bones nor the skull are aerodynamic - and somehow, a variety of bones stayed together during this event and ended up in a Canyon/Wash (I'm still using both terms because the person who found the skull has been public about it - just not to MSM, they have described where they were, IIRC - as that's how LE found the bones; they gave the information to a well known photojournalist - who does not own her own MSM outlet, but posts on FB and Twitter; she too has given out quite a bit of information about where the skull was located).

I'll mention one more thing. If the winds and rains were enough to dislodge and move a relatively intact skeleton, then other things were moving too (rocks much greater than fist size; along with granite-based erosive materials - like being in a rock polisher, IMO). All of this would move/flow together - until it plunged down those washes; it's very odd that the skull is just sitting atop a variety of rocks, not buried in any way - not broken by interacting with other 3-4 lb objects in such an intense event - enough to move bones/bodies in such a way).

It's possible that all this happened. To two people who ended up not far from each other, and with one of them - their bones still in relative positions to each other, with clothing still present.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Just in case the topographical maps aren't easy to understand, this is Google Earth's image of Harper Flat:

Google Earth

earth.google.com

View attachment 462092

Pinyon Wash is top right, Harper Canyon is bottom right, and you can see how many of the surrounding peaks and ridges flow down towards the flat. If you zoom in you can also see the ground is covered with marks from water flowing across the flat.

Great picture! Shows exactly where the bodies would have had to have been to be caught up in flow - thousands of years of erosion in this picture, and the drainage from Harper Flat is well established (relatively shallow in the middle, as we would expect, but definitely shows where water would flow - note that there are deeper channels at the base of the ridge at the north - meaning that water there would be sluiced *around* the flat rather than across it. The little ridge in the left center of the map (the dark stuff) are creating that next flow channel that then empties into what I"d call a dry creek bed.

The position of the truck would be in the lower third of this picture - much lower ridges to cross on foot. I think we can see some of the roads JRF was trying to use just below the southern edge of Harper Flat. Still, for most people, that would be difficult terrain to cross, unless they were near that one trailhead (not sure where it is on the map). It actually makes sense that they would have cut over to Harper Canyon (rather than Pinyon Wash) in their quest to get to a traveled road/the HIghway. Esp. if they had a good map.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

This may have been mentioned and I've missed it in the 100+ pages of discussion. But has Dave McCain Spring, directly south of Harper Canyon, been mentioned as a possible location Fang and John might have been looking for?

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Great picture! Shows exactly where the bodies would have had to have been to be caught up in flow - thousands of years of erosion in this picture, and the drainage from Harper Flat is well established (relatively shallow in the middle, as we would expect, but definitely shows where water would flow - note that there are deeper channels at the base of the ridge at the north - meaning that water there would be sluiced *around* the flat rather than across it. The little ridge in the left center of the map (the dark stuff) are creating that next flow channel that then empties into what I"d call a dry creek bed.

The position of the truck would be in the lower third of this picture - much lower ridges to cross on foot. I think we can see some of the roads JRF was trying to use just below the southern edge of Harper Flat. Still, for most people, that would be difficult terrain to cross, unless they were near that one trailhead (not sure where it is on the map). It actually makes sense that they would have cut over to Harper Canyon (rather than Pinyon Wash) in their quest to get to a traveled road/the HIghway. Esp. if they had a good map.

I didn't think I was doing a great job of explaining myself, so where words fail a picture is worth a thousand.

I do agree with you that the bodies probably wouldn't have been carried so far and remained intact. But hopefully the picture shows what I meant when I said the Flat is like a collecting bowl for run-off from the surrounding mountains.

The gullies eroded into the bedrock of Harper Flat are massive. Everyone really has to go to the Google Earth link and zoom in to truly appreciate the depth and width of them; some areas of the Flat probably remain almost completely dry, but if you're caught in one of those gullies when water is pouring down from the surrounding peaks... not good.

I've added relevant marking to this image, and the yellow lines indicate what I'd consider to be "south of Harper Flat". I really do wish we knew more about the exact position of the truck.

It looks like Fang and John must have either somehow driven onto Harper Flat (which shouldn't have been possible) or else become stuck on the southern ridges between Hapaha Flat Rd and Harper Flat. If they were trying to drive towards Dave McCain Spring and the truck became disabled on the ridge just south of Harper Flat, Harper Canyon would probably have been the closest point of escape.

 

[10ofRods]

I didn't think I was doing a great job of explaining myself, so where words fail a picture is worth a thousand.

I do agree with you that the bodies probably wouldn't have been carried so far and remained intact. But hopefully the picture shows what I meant when I said the Flat is like a collecting bowl for run-off from the surrounding mountains.

The gullies eroded into the bedrock of Harper Flat are massive. Everyone really has to go to the Google Earth link and zoom in to truly appreciate the depth and width of them; some areas of the Flat probably remain almost completely dry, but if you're caught in one of those gullies when water is pouring down from the surrounding peaks... not good.

I've added relevant marking to this image, and the yellow lines indicate what I'd consider to be "south of Harper Flat". I really do wish we knew more about the exact position of the truck.

It looks like Fang and John must have either somehow driven onto Harper Flat (which shouldn't have been possible) or else become stuck on the southern ridges between Hapaha Flat Rd and Harper Flat. If they were trying to drive towards Dave McCain Spring and the truck became disabled on the ridge just south of Harper Flat, Harper Canyon would probably have been the closest point of escape.

View attachment 462161

Pretty much agree with your map, except that the yellow lines have water going up over that low ridge - instead it will head down toward Harper Canyon (which actually makes an argument for water washing the remains from where you have your Harper Flat label or near there down into Harper Canyon.

I don't think Hapahapa flat drains onto Harper Flat, judging by the topo map posted earlier. Since the fence has been mentioned, I really appreciate you showing its location. I agree with @Herat's conclusion that the truck was over there near where you have written fence - but I think the natural drainage for *that* area is Pinyon Wash. Pinyon Wash has to get significant water from that side of the Flat. For those who are just joining the gentle slope of the flat is generally from South to North. It does look like the area near the low ridge (east of it) would drain into Harper Canyon.

I also think that pale wedge shaped terrain where the label Harper Flat is...is granite and probably represents a higher elevation than the mouth of either Harper or Pinyon.

But the bodies have to be intact when the storm passes through for them to arrive relatively intact in the Canyon. It then becomes really hard to explain the degree of skeletonization we see in JRF's skull. It is possible, though, as the desert is a place where things happen in really unexpected ways. This would mean the bodies were out in the open, on Harper Flat, from about July 24 to August 22/3 with no one noticing, even though rangers in the Park had checked for cell pings sometime after July 30 (JF's date of being reported missing). They surely must have thought that the area was the last known place where JRF's phone pinged. But it is a large park and it was not tourist season, at all.

Anyway, I do believe the truck was near where your fence label is and now everyone can see the distance between there and Harper Canyon - I think recent MSM says it's 3 miles approximately to where the bodies were found.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Pretty much agree with your map, except that the yellow lines have water going up over that low ridge - instead it will head down toward Harper Canyon (which actually makes an argument for water washing the remains from where you have your Harper Flat label or near there down into Harper Canyon.

I don't think Hapahapa flat drains onto Harper Flat, judging by the topo map posted earlier. Since the fence has been mentioned, I really appreciate you showing its location. I agree with @Herat's conclusion that the truck was over there near where you have written fence - but I think the natural drainage for *that* area is Pinyon Wash. Pinyon Wash has to get significant water from that side of the Flat. For those who are just joining the gentle slope of the flat is generally from South to North. It does look like the area near the low ridge (east of it) would drain into Harper Canyon.

I also think that pale wedge shaped terrain where the label Harper Flat is...is granite and probably represents a higher elevation than the mouth of either Harper or Pinyon.

But the bodies have to be intact when the storm passes through for them to arrive relatively intact in the Canyon. It then becomes really hard to explain the degree of skeletonization we see in JRF's skull. It is possible, though, as the desert is a place where things happen in really unexpected ways. This would mean the bodies were out in the open, on Harper Flat, from about July 24 to August 22/3 with no one noticing, even though rangers in the Park had checked for cell pings sometime after July 30 (JF's date of being reported missing). They surely must have thought that the area was the last known place where JRF's phone pinged. But it is a large park and it was not tourist season, at all.

Anyway, I do believe the truck was near where your fence label is and now everyone can see the distance between there and Harper Canyon - I think recent MSM says it's 3 miles approximately to where the bodies were found.

I didn't mean to suggest the yellow lines were marking out the flow direction of the water, they're just shading to denote the area "south of Harper Flat." The truck could (theoretically) have been anywhere in the area marked in yellow.

I agree with your interpretation of the flow of the water; there's nothing to suggest water would ever flow from Hapaha Flat onto Harper Flat. It looks like the water coming down from Whale Peak and Pinyon Mountain would fall onto Harper Flat roughly where the fence is located, and that it would then fork off, with some water running into Pinyon Wash and the rest following the deep gully around the north side of Harper Flat before falling down Harper Canyon. The beautiful erosion markings show exactly how the water has flowed for millennia.

Assuming John drove the easiest route from Fish Creek up Hapaha Flat Rd, he could either drive all the way up to the fence at the south-west corner of Harper Flat, OR he could leave the road and drive across Hapaha Flat towards Dave McCain Spring. I think those are the only two obvious routes.

If Fang and John were found at the bottom of Harper Canyon near the trailhead, that's quite a bit more than 3 miles from the fence. I'd guess closer to 5 or 6 miles. However it would be about 3 or 4 miles from Dave McCain Spring.

We know that John was talking about conducting tours and showing customers how to find water. Is it possible he would have wanted to show Fang a water spring?

 

[mst]

So based on what LE has said about the truck, we know that there are 3 dead tires. Does that mean that's the only damage? Was there any earlier report that it was wrecked? What I am thinking is if it's possible that the trucked rolled.

 

[Kittenn11]

So based on what LE has said about the truck, we know that there are 3 dead tires. Does that mean that's the only damage? Was there any earlier report that it was wrecked? What I am thinking is if it's possible that the trucked

Imo and IME, its highly unlikely multiple flat tires 3 or more simultaneously) is the reason they had to walk out of there. It's more likely the tires became flat overtime.

Edit: to clarify what I mean by "multiple"

 

[10ofRods]

So based on what LE has said about the truck, we know that there are 3 dead tires. Does that mean that's the only damage? Was there any earlier report that it was wrecked? What I am thinking is if it's possible that the trucked rolled.

According to people who found the truck (not LE), it was "wrecked." There were other adjectives. I don't have the links and it's on the thread earlier.

Earlier report than what? The skull of JRF is found in mid-September. But we, the public, do not know that yet. Were rangers and various LE reporting to each other about findings (pings, drone oversights, etc)? Yes.

Go back through the threads to find the answer to "was there an earlier report?" Myself, I can't keep track of what has been MSM.

The person reporting the truck is not an approved WS source. The truck, according to MSM, was damaged. Did it roll? No one knows but someone on FB did say it was really banged up, or similar. Whatever that means.

I believe the truck was up against a fence (and have at least three theories about that but no MSM source). I am basing that on the fact that the truck is found SOUTH of Harper Flat and there are only two approaches to the area, which join at the fence.

We have no real report that it was "wrecked." Go back through the threads here for what was current - at the time. It is indeed possible the truck rolled - although in reading the FB posts of one person who saw the truck, I believe they were a good observer and would know a rolled truck if they saw one. Instead, they say something like "banged up."

The three flat tires are in MSM, I think. But there are various causes for that. What LE says is that the truck did not contain water/supplies for a camping stay, which leads me to believe it either didn't roll or if it did, there were no contents dumped from it.

It seems like wilderness misadventure/lack of preparedness to me - and, perhaps, speeding or poor driving skills - but that's entire supposition based on stats and the few facts we have, IMO. Very very sad in any case.

IMO.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I struggle to accept that the truck was found near/against the fence.

Firstly, the fence is much smaller and much more flimsy than I expected it to be. If the truck was moved by water I would expect it to crash through the fence, not end up stuck against it. The truck could have been deliberately parked up against the fence, but that doesn't seem to fit with the truck being wrecked. And if it was by the fence, it would be in full view of anyone going there.

Which ties into my second reason, this post by our VI:

'In late August/September, John's truck was located in a very remote area of the desert not utilized by camper/hikers/ or off-roaders. The vehicle had 3 flat tires and was not able to drive. There was nothing in the vehicle indicating they were planning on staying in the desert or camping. In early September, campers located human remains about 3 miles from the truck in a wash.'
This is the last info concerning the car we received from J.D. from SD sheriff.org on nov 6th

Would a fence next to the main through-road (Pinyon Mountain Rd/Hapaha Flat Rd) really be considered "a very remote area of the desert not utilized by camper/hikers/ or off-roaders"? IMO that doesn't sound like an accurate description of the area around the fence.

To me it sounds more like the truck was found somewhere you wouldn't expect it to be. A journalist who was at Harper Flat trying to find the truck couldn't find it. And if the remains were 3 miles from the truck, that also seems to be a bit too close for the truck to have been all the way across Harper Flat by the fence--unless the remains were right at the top of Harper Canyon, not further down.

We have lots of little pieces and they still don't quite seem to fit together.

 

[10ofRods]

I struggle to accept that the truck was found near/against the fence.

Firstly, the fence is much smaller and much more flimsy than I expected it to be. If the truck was moved by water I would expect it to crash through the fence, not end up stuck against it. The truck could have been deliberately parked up against the fence, but that doesn't seem to fit with the truck being wrecked. And if it was by the fence, it would be in full view of anyone going there.

Which ties into my second reason, this post by our VI:



Would a fence next to the main through-road (Pinyon Mountain Rd/Hapaha Flat Rd) really be considered "a very remote area of the desert not utilized by camper/hikers/ or off-roaders"? IMO that doesn't sound like an accurate description of the area around the fence.

To me it sounds more like the truck was found somewhere you wouldn't expect it to be. A journalist who was at Harper Flat trying to find the truck couldn't find it. And if the remains were 3 miles from the truck, that also seems to be a bit too close for the truck to have been all the way across Harper Flat by the fence--unless the remains were right at the top of Harper Canyon, not further down.

We have lots of little pieces and they still don't quite seem to fit together.

Yes, it's a very remote area that almost no one goes to, IMO. You can do some research on it by going to various trail/hiking/off roading sites and compare the stories and pictures about OTHER parts of Anza Borrego to this part, on the premise that a certain percentage of users (of the park) are also posting on these sites about their repeated hikes and trips to Anza Borrego - and this is a less well traveled part of the park.

Especially in July. The entire park is less utilized in July. It's advised not to be out of one's car for more than 20-30 minutes in 115F heat. I do not know if Anza has lots of signage about this (and I know they don't have a gated/kiosked set of entry points - the 78 is a highway and one can freely drive into the park, so it's possible some people do not know that 115F is too hot to hike (especially without shade, and especially in gullies/canyons which act like ovens).

The truck was found somewhere, that's for sure. It depends on where you'd expect it to be whether it was in an expected spot. I think most LE and rangers know that it could be almost anywhere, given past experiences. It was not at Harper Flat, though, as Harper Flat is closed to traffic and doesn't have an easy way of getting a vehicle onto it.

The truck didn't go across Harper Flat to the fence - the truck was traveling either on Fish Creek or the other roads that are E/W south of Harper Flat, as shown on several maps here. At one point, if coming from the west to the east, Fish Creek turns into another named road which is one way only from east to west - so people have to turn around there (it's near the Pinyon Wash drop-off point which leads to Harper Flat and is the only marked way of getting to Harper Flat that I know of, from south of the Flat, which is where the truck still is, as far as we know.)

It was never ON the flat. It's up behind those ridges shown on the latest posted map south of Harper Flat. Somewhere.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

I struggle to accept that the truck was found near/against the fence.

Firstly, the fence is much smaller and much more flimsy than I expected it to be. If the truck was moved by water I would expect it to crash through the fence, not end up stuck against it. The truck could have been deliberately parked up against the fence, but that doesn't seem to fit with the truck being wrecked. And if it was by the fence, it would be in full view of anyone going there.

Which ties into my second reason, this post by our VI:



Would a fence next to the main through-road (Pinyon Mountain Rd/Hapaha Flat Rd) really be considered "a very remote area of the desert not utilized by camper/hikers/ or off-roaders"? IMO that doesn't sound like an accurate description of the area around the fence.

To me it sounds more like the truck was found somewhere you wouldn't expect it to be. A journalist who was at Harper Flat trying to find the truck couldn't find it. And if the remains were 3 miles from the truck, that also seems to be a bit too close for the truck to have been all the way across Harper Flat by the fence--unless the remains were right at the top of Harper Canyon, not further down.

We have lots of little pieces and they still don't quite seem to fit together.

Oh, and Pinyon Mountain/Hapaha Flat Roads are NOT main roads through the park - Highway 78 is, and I would not dream of driving on those roads (they are rutted, rocky dirt roads) although I have a very capable SUV. I've stopped off roading in desert conditions - maybe 10 years ago. And NEVER in July, August or September. I don't know a single off roader who would go out there in those months. December is usually good (little rain, much cooler), and in January-May, one does have to calculate wash-outs, rain and small road closures into one's plans in that region, or Joshua Tree or Death Valley. Even Mojave Preserve main roads can be dicy when it's raining.

It's hard to even find those roads once you're in the park. This is the map I found on the State Park site (and elsewhere) but it's the same map one would get at the visitor center. The red e/w road is the Highway (marked Borrego Springs Road on the map - so everyone should be able to find Borrego Springs, the only nearby place with real services) - that's the 78. The red and gold road is the approach coastal dwellers use, from the west, which is also considered the "scenic" highway through the park.



Pinyon Mountain Road has a north and south area - but neither is the main road and all those tiny branches off Pinyon Mountain Road at the very bottom are just trailhead turn-outs. I doubt that many (or any) people were going daytime hiking up there in 115-117F temperatures (taken in the shade at Borrego Springs and at the Visitor Center). There is very little shade in the park, so real ground temps are higher, which is why a couple of us keep mentioning this over, and over. People have died in temps as low as 107F, after an hour of hiking. At temps of 115 in the shade, Death Valley puts signage at all the major tourist turn-outs (all are near well paved roads).


Pinyon Mountain Road:


^https://www.alltrails.com/trail/us/california/pinyon-mountain-road--2

This is not a major road and anyone who doesn't realize it dead ends up ahead is going to be very disappointed if they thought they could cross the park using it. And here it is listed as OFFROAD trail:


^Pinyon Mountain Road - California Offroad Trail (at this link, you can see markers for where the pictures are taken - this is closer I believe to one of the actual main roads.

Just so you can see there is elevation change and wider, sections, but not paved. Not a throughfare, at all Doesn't go all the way to any other main road, either.

IMO So yes, it's remote. Nearly every trail report and off roading report mentions it's a good place for solitude. The spot where the road becomes one-way (in the opposite direction) is where it becomes Hapahapa Road, IMO. I haven't been up there, but there's a lot of reading one can do about that particular trail. The most-used part of the park is just north of the 78 - to get there, one would have to turn around and go back by Pinyon Mountain Road to the scenic drive and then turn east on 78 and get off near the big campground/low elevation offroading spots.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Yes, it's a very remote area that almost no one goes to, IMO. You can do some research on it by going to various trail/hiking/off roading sites and compare the stories and pictures about OTHER parts of Anza Borrego to this part, on the premise that a certain percentage of users (of the park) are also posting on these sites about their repeated hikes and trips to Anza Borrego - and this is a less well traveled part of the park.

Especially in July. The entire park is less utilized in July. It's advised not to be out of one's car for more than 20-30 minutes in 115F heat. I do not know if Anza has lots of signage about this (and I know they don't have a gated/kiosked set of entry points - the 78 is a highway and one can freely drive into the park, so it's possible some people do not know that 115F is too hot to hike (especially without shade, and especially in gullies/canyons which act like ovens).

The truck was found somewhere, that's for sure. It depends on where you'd expect it to be whether it was in an expected spot. I think most LE and rangers know that it could be almost anywhere, given past experiences. It was not at Harper Flat, though, as Harper Flat is closed to traffic and doesn't have an easy way of getting a vehicle onto it.

The truck didn't go across Harper Flat to the fence - the truck was traveling either on Fish Creek or the other roads that are E/W south of Harper Flat, as shown on several maps here. At one point, if coming from the west to the east, Fish Creek turns into another named road which is one way only from east to west - so people have to turn around there (it's near the Pinyon Wash drop-off point which leads to Harper Flat and is the only marked way of getting to Harper Flat that I know of, from south of the Flat, which is where the truck still is, as far as we know.)

It was never ON the flat. It's up behind those ridges shown on the latest posted map south of Harper Flat. Somewhere.

IMO.

Oh, and Pinyon Mountain/Hapaha Flat Roads are NOT main roads through the park - Highway 78 is, and I would not dream of driving on those roads (they are rutted, rocky dirt roads) although I have a very capable SUV. I've stopped off roading in desert conditions - maybe 10 years ago. And NEVER in July, August or September. I don't know a single off roader who would go out there in those months. December is usually good (little rain, much cooler), and in January-May, one does have to calculate wash-outs, rain and small road closures into one's plans in that region, or Joshua Tree or Death Valley. Even Mojave Preserve main roads can be dicy when it's raining.

It's hard to even find those roads once you're in the park. This is the map I found on the State Park site (and elsewhere) but it's the same map one would get at the visitor center. The red e/w road is the Highway (marked Borrego Springs Road on the map - so everyone should be able to find Borrego Springs, the only nearby place with real services) - that's the 78. The red and gold road is the approach coastal dwellers use, from the west, which is also considered the "scenic" highway through the park.

View attachment 462288

Pinyon Mountain Road has a north and south area - but neither is the main road and all those tiny branches off Pinyon Mountain Road at the very bottom are just trailhead turn-outs. I doubt that many (or any) people were going daytime hiking up there in 115-117F temperatures (taken in the shade at Borrego Springs and at the Visitor Center). There is very little shade in the park, so real ground temps are higher, which is why a couple of us keep mentioning this over, and over. People have died in temps as low as 107F, after an hour of hiking. At temps of 115 in the shade, Death Valley puts signage at all the major tourist turn-outs (all are near well paved roads).


Pinyon Mountain Road:

View attachment 462290
^https://www.alltrails.com/trail/us/california/pinyon-mountain-road--2

This is not a major road and anyone who doesn't realize it dead ends up ahead is going to be very disappointed if they thought they could cross the park using it. And here it is listed as OFFROAD trail:

View attachment 462292
^Pinyon Mountain Road - California Offroad Trail (at this link, you can see markers for where the pictures are taken - this is closer I believe to one of the actual main roads.

Just so you can see there is elevation change and wider, sections, but not paved. Not a throughfare, at all Doesn't go all the way to any other main road, either.

IMO So yes, it's remote. Nearly every trail report and off roading report mentions it's a good place for solitude. The spot where the road becomes one-way (in the opposite direction) is where it becomes Hapahapa Road, IMO. I haven't been up there, but there's a lot of reading one can do about that particular trail. The most-used part of the park is just north of the 78 - to get there, one would have to turn around and go back by Pinyon Mountain Road to the scenic drive and then turn east on 78 and get off near the big campground/low elevation offroading spots.

Don't you think there's an important distinction between an area not being used very often, and LE describing where the truck was found as "not utilized by camper/hikers/ or off-roaders"? (BBM) Because for me that's a very important distinction.

The area by the fence IS used by campers, hikers and off-roaders; the fence only exists because enough people travel through the area to make it necessary. Even if only one person traveled through per week, the truck would still have been readily visible. The journalist who was searching the area would have easily found it. To me, everything points to the truck being somewhere "off the beaten track." Pinyon Mountain Rd, Hapaha Flat Rd, and the fence area aren't off the beaten track: they ARE the beaten track.

You took me far too literally when I called Pinyon Mountain Rd and Hapaha Flat Rd the main road. It's obviously not a highway or a wide thoroughfare, but it is the primary (only) road through that part of the park. Anyone who wants to drive to Harper Flat from the south has to travel along one of those two roads. Surely we can both agree on that.

 

[10ofRods]

Don't you think there's an important distinction between an area not being used very often, and LE describing where the truck was found as "not utilized by camper/hikers/ or off-roaders"? (BBM) Because for me that's a very important distinction.

The area by the fence IS used by campers, hikers and off-roaders; the fence only exists because enough people travel through the area to make it necessary. Even if only one person traveled through per week, the truck would still have been readily visible. The journalist who was searching the area would have easily found it. To me, everything points to the truck being somewhere "off the beaten track." Pinyon Mountain Rd, Hapaha Flat Rd, and the fence area aren't off the beaten track: they ARE the beaten track.

You took me far too literally when I called Pinyon Mountain Rd and Hapaha Flat Rd the main road. It's obviously not a highway or a wide thoroughfare, but it is the primary (only) road through that part of the park. Anyone who wants to drive to Harper Flat from the south has to travel along one of those two roads. Surely we can both agree on that.

Where's that LE quote from? I've gone back a couple of pages and don't see the link, so time for a link, I think.

I'm not too sure the truck was near the fence either. Yes, of course someone has to drive on those roads to get (by road) as close to Harper Flat as possible.

You asked whether it was remote and I'm saying that in my estimation, compared to most places I go in wilderness, YES, it is remote - whether the truck is on Pinyon Canyon or Hapahapa or any of those side roads or washed into a gully - VERY few people go up there in July and August. The guy who found the skull found it while hiking in mid-September.

It's 1000 square miles with just four full time rangers, who cover all shifts, 7 days a week. IOW, about 1-2 rangers on duty at a time for a place almost the size of Rhode Island. At any rate, on a Monday in July, I doubt there were few people in the park, except the RVers.

It's also remote in the sense that while there is apparently a sign for Pinyon Mountain Road, none of the other roads up there are signed. There is a lot of erosion in the entire area. People wanting to go down Pinyon Wash are the most likely to be up there - but we do not know if the truck was anywhere near that pull-out (which is rarely used for a round trip - most people do not go both directions on Pinyon Wash, but occasionally someone might - but not in July or August).

I would be surprised if more than one or two cars go up that way during daylight hours in July or August. If they do, they are probably dropping someone off for the hike down Pinyon Wash. People who want to offroad IN Pinyon Wash (which is indeed popular) approach from the 78 and drive up and back down the Wash (if they dare - they definitely need a spotter, and almost no one will do that in 115-117F weather).

The entire area (Thermal, Salton Sea, Anza Borrego) is much less used in summer. Even locals don't go outside as much. It's not surprising to me that no one stumbled on anything until mid-September.

The popular area of the park is not off PInyon Mountain Road or Hapahapa Road. I bet entire days can go by without seeing anyone else up there in July.

Visitor Studies of the park (well funded and well done) do not even try to measure summer visitors (or winter ones) but focus on the popular seasons (Fall and Summer). Here are the results (70% of people stopping at the Visitor Center participated, so it's easy to extrapolate a bit). Most visitors stayed outside the park in motels, most came in regular cars, so that gives you an idea of how few people actually go to the Outback of Anza Borrego. I think the study also shows that for at least half of visitors, there is an expectation of near solitude - although a couple of less well traveled places are studied - note that HapaHapa and Shelter Valley are not in the top 5-6 places visited (and the sixth ranked place, Fish Creek, has few visitors even in the busy months).

IMO.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Where's that LE quote from? I've gone back a couple of pages and don't see the link, so time for a link, I think.

I'm not too sure the truck was near the fence either. Yes, of course someone has to drive on those roads to get (by road) as close to Harper Flat as possible.

You asked whether it was remote and I'm saying that in my estimation, compared to most places I go in wilderness, YES, it is remote - whether the truck is on Pinyon Canyon or Hapahapa or any of those side roads or washed into a gully - VERY few people go up there in July and August. The guy who found the skull found it while hiking in mid-September.

It's 1000 square miles with just four full time rangers, who cover all shifts, 7 days a week. IOW, about 1-2 rangers on duty at a time for a place almost the size of Rhode Island. At any rate, on a Monday in July, I doubt there were few people in the park, except the RVers.

It's also remote in the sense that while there is apparently a sign for Pinyon Mountain Road, none of the other roads up there are signed. There is a lot of erosion in the entire area. People wanting to go down Pinyon Wash are the most likely to be up there - but we do not know if the truck was anywhere near that pull-out (which is rarely used for a round trip - most people do not go both directions on Pinyon Wash, but occasionally someone might - but not in July or August).

I would be surprised if more than one or two cars go up that way during daylight hours in July or August. If they do, they are probably dropping someone off for the hike down Pinyon Wash. People who want to offroad IN Pinyon Wash (which is indeed popular) approach from the 78 and drive up and back down the Wash (if they dare - they definitely need a spotter, and almost no one will do that in 115-117F weather).

The entire area (Thermal, Salton Sea, Anza Borrego) is much less used in summer. Even locals don't go outside as much. It's not surprising to me that no one stumbled on anything until mid-September.

The popular area of the park is not off PInyon Mountain Road or Hapahapa Road. I bet entire days can go by without seeing anyone else up there in July.

Visitor Studies of the park (well funded and well done) do not even try to measure summer visitors (or winter ones) but focus on the popular seasons (Fall and Summer). Here are the results (70% of people stopping at the Visitor Center participated, so it's easy to extrapolate a bit). Most visitors stayed outside the park in motels, most came in regular cars, so that gives you an idea of how few people actually go to the Outback of Anza Borrego. I think the study also shows that for at least half of visitors, there is an expectation of near solitude - although a couple of less well traveled places are studied - note that HapaHapa and Shelter Valley are not in the top 5-6 places visited (and the sixth ranked place, Fish Creek, has few visitors even in the busy months).

IMO.

The LE quote is taken from one of @mark1969's posts, which I quoted in the exact post of mine you were responding to:

Found Deceased - CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

If tires weren't uninflated, might they have imploded in the heat? Yes - and probably in response to the rocky roads up there. I found some pictures of Harper Flat (I believe they did not drive on it - but it is representative of some the rock up there). It appears to be exfoliating granite...

www.websleuths.com

I don't mean to be rude, but you appear to have written two long responses to my post (three if we include this one) without properly reading it.

 

[Ou41aw]

Don't you think there's an important distinction between an area not being used very often, and LE describing where the truck was found as "not utilized by camper/hikers/ or off-roaders"? (BBM) Because for me that's a very important distinction.

The area by the fence IS used by campers, hikers and off-roaders; the fence only exists because enough people travel through the area to make it necessary. Even if only one person traveled through per week, the truck would still have been readily visible. The journalist who was searching the area would have easily found it. To me, everything points to the truck being somewhere "off the beaten track." Pinyon Mountain Rd, Hapaha Flat Rd, and the fence area aren't off the beaten track: they ARE the beaten track.

You took me far too literally when I called Pinyon Mountain Rd and Hapaha Flat Rd the main road. It's obviously not a highway or a wide thoroughfare, but it is the primary (only) road through that part of the park. Anyone who wants to drive to Harper Flat from the south has to travel along one of those two roads. Surely we can both agree on that.

The fence is utilized by hikers, but not campers or off-roaders. The fence is there to keep people in vehicles out as the area of Harper Flat is a state wildlife protected area. You cannot drive in the flat area, or even ride a bike or camp at night there. You even have to push a bike through the Flat area, and the rangers there are strict about not damaging the state wildlife protected area. I have previously posted pictures of the fence and it is only able to be accessed by hikers. At that time of year, I would expect almost no hikers going through the fence or Harper Flat area. The heat keeps almost everyone away, expect the random off-roader who would only be driving past the area of the fence along Hapaha Flat Rd. and probably being paying little attention to it while whipping past. I have off-roaded through that exact area and paying attention to a damaged or not damaged barb wire fence would be the least of my concerns. We would, and most all off roaders would be following our maps that blow on past there as it shown as off limits and not marked as a road for vehicle access. IMO, if someone like JRF accidentally or intentionally drove through the fence and into Harper Flat, I could see how the truck could have ended up anywhere inside of the Harper Flat area and damaged with flat tires. If it did end up in the Flat, it could have sat damaged in there and out of view of off-roaders and rangers. Not even the rangers can drive into the Flat as it is protected. The only people that would have had a chance at seeing the truck if it was in the Flat would have been hikers, who as I stated would never or extremely rarely would have been hiking that area during the day at that time of year. In talking with others in the Anza-Borrego Explorers FB group, we have our opinions on what may have happened, but MSM has not confirmed all of our suspicions as of yet.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

The fence is utilized by hikers, but not campers or off-roaders. The fence is there to keep people in vehicles out as the area of Harper Flat is a state wildlife protected area. You cannot drive in the flat area, or even ride a bike or camp at night there. You even have to push a bike through the Flat area, and the rangers there are strict about not damaging the state wildlife protected area. I have previously posted pictures of the fence and it is only able to be accessed by hikers. At that time of year, I would expect almost no hikers going through the fence or Harper Flat area. The heat keeps almost everyone away, expect the random off-roader who would only be driving past the area of the fence along Hapaha Flat Rd. and probably being paying little attention to it while whipping past. I have off-roaded through that exact area and paying attention to a damaged or not damaged barb wire fence would be the least of my concerns. We would, and most all off roaders would be following our maps that blow on past there as it shown as off limits and not marked as a road for vehicle access. IMO, if someone like JRF accidentally or intentionally drove through the fence and into Harper Flat, I could see how the truck could have ended up anywhere inside of the Harper Flat area and damaged with flat tires. If it did end up in the Flat, it could have sat damaged in there and out of view of off-roaders and rangers. Not even the rangers can drive into the Flat as it is protected. The only people that would have had a chance at seeing the truck if it was in the Flat would have been hikers, who as I stated would never or extremely rarely would have been hiking that area during the day at that time of year. In talking with others in the Anza-Borrego Explorers FB group, we have our opinions on what may have happened, but MSM has not confirmed all of our suspicions as of yet.

To be clear, I've been speaking very specifically about the area by the fence, not about the entirety of Harper Flat.

This is a matter of personal interpretation, but to me, saying an area isn't utilized doesn't just mean you can't drive over it or camp on it. To me that means nobody (or almost nobody) ever goes there. And that just doesn't seem to fit the area by the fence. Even if the area is very quiet at that time of year and in that kind of heat, could a vehicle "wrecked" next to the fence go unnoticed to the point where even a journalist who was out searching for it couldn't find it? That seems hard to believe.

However, I absolutely agree with everything you've said about Harper Flat itself. If the truck somehow ended up on the Flat, the chances of it being found were much, much lower. The only question then would be why and how it got there.

 

[Ou41aw]

To be clear, I've been speaking very specifically about the area by the fence, not about the entirety of Harper Flat.

This is a matter of personal interpretation, but to me, saying an area isn't utilized doesn't just mean you can't drive over it or camp on it. To me that means nobody (or almost nobody) ever goes there. And that just doesn't seem to fit the area by the fence. Even if the area is very quiet at that time of year and in that kind of heat, could a vehicle "wrecked" next to the fence go unnoticed to the point where even a journalist who was out searching for it couldn't find it? That seems hard to believe.

However, I absolutely agree with everything you've said about Harper Flat itself. If the truck somehow ended up on the Flat, the chances of it being found were much, much lower. The only question then would be why and how it got there.

IMO If the truck was wrecked near the fence then it would be most likely noticed by people driving the road by there. If it for some reason had driven through the fence by accident or on purpose, then the chances of being noticed would be much less. The fence is only there to keep vehicles out of the wildlife protected area. Hikers do use the wildlife area often, just not much that time of year. That is the main route for hikers from Pinyon Wash and Harper Canyon. Most all of the hiking in that area is along the washes around and through Harper Flat. The fence has an access opening for hikers, and signs warning that it is a wildlife protected area so no vehicles. These signs are quite small, and then fence is nothing more than barbed wire and small posts strung across the wash. If the truck ended up past the fence, then it would have been more difficult to see or find, even more so if they had driven into the flat even a short distance. When standing at the fence, you have hills that obscure your view of Harper Flat itself. You can't see most of the Flat until you walk past the fence into the protected area about a 1/4 to 1/2 mile.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

IMO If the truck was wrecked near the fence then it would be most likely noticed by people driving the road by there. If it for some reason had driven through the fence by accident or on purpose, then the chances of being noticed would be much less. The fence is only there to keep vehicles out of the wildlife protected area. Hikers do use the wildlife area often, just not much that time of year. That is the main route for hikers from Pinyon Wash and Harper Canyon. Most all of the hiking in that area is along the washes around and through Harper Flat. The fence has an access opening for hikers, and signs warning that it is a wildlife protected area so no vehicles. These signs are quite small, and then fence is nothing more than barbed wire and small posts strung across the wash. If the truck ended up past the fence, then it would have been more difficult to see or find, even more so if they had driven into the flat even a short distance. When standing at the fence, you have hills that obscure your view of Harper Flat itself. You can't see most of the Flat until you walk past the fence into the protected area about a 1/4 to 1/2 mile.

My personal theory, piecing together everything I've seen about the location (early reports indicating the truck was on or near Harper Flat; the journalist not being able to find it and people he spoke to not having seen it; the report that the truck was to the south of Harper Flat; LE saying the location was very remote and not utilized by hikers, campers or off-roaders) is that the truck was probably found somewhere in the area marked in red.

Somewhere along the ridge line or just up on the southern ridge. But there has never been a good explanation for how it would have gotten there.

My other theory was if they had driven across Hapaha Flat looking for Dave McCain Spring, could they have driven far enough up onto the ridge that they possibly tumbled down onto Harper Flat in the area marked yellow. I don't know if driving over the ridges in the south-eastern corner near Hapaha Flat would even be possible, but a futile attempt to find a Spring (albeit one that is apparently now dried up) would at least be a reason for them being there.

 

[tvscum]

Death certificate confirms body of ex-Navy SEAL found in desert

GPS location of John Fitzpatrick's body was disclosed, but the cause of death is still pending.

www.cbs8.com

https://interactive.cbs8.com/pdfs/fitzpatrick-death-cert_redacted.pdf

https://interactive.cbs8.com/pdfs/Calls-for-service-list.pdf