CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #5

[rosemadderlake]

That cliff does not look that high too me to purposely commit suicide. How do we know they died instantly. They don't know how long the SUV was there. People have accidently gone over cliffs on Pacific coast highway and survived. Being high on Benadryl and booze isnt it possible to veer off a cliff going fast around the curves? It gets so foggy and slippery on that road. It would be hard to navigate being intoxicated and sleepy.

Im sure it was suicide. I just don't want to believe people could be this evil as much as I hated those two child abusers.

We won't know they died instantly or not until the coroner's report - IMO.

That cliff is high; 100 Ft., like ten story building high. And with the roll and tumble of a couple of tons of SUV, I suspect it was very violent going down that rocky cliff and landing upside down on boulders.

Also, don't know the compression because the only image of the SUV so far, is from above. LE said there was a big "V" dent in the front. This could be why J&S were still in the vehicle - they were pinned.

 

[mtnlites]

Benedryl is known to be used as an over the counter " Anger control " medicine as well as used for "Anxiety", not just for allergies and motion sickness.

I also knew this from personal experience as our family believes in natural medicines instead of zombie like prescribed drugs.

For reference, towards end of article will clarify use for Benedryl. And imho, a few of the kids as well as JH could have all suffered from lack of anger control, especially from taking a look at some of their background history
https://www.psychguides.com/guides/...s-anger-management-treatment-program-options/

Hydroxyzine, which is basically Benedryl, is often prescribed for anxiety. Some doctors consider it a safer alternative to benzos.

 

[fridaybaker]

Little details keep coming out here and there...


IMO

"Put food into a box"? What on earth does that mean. I though you were supposed to food into the refrigerator, into the cupboard, into your mouth.....

 

[Aescwynn]

Benadryl comes in both pill and liquid form.

Liquid could easily be mixed into a fruit or vegetable smoothie.

"Drink it all up, everyone. We're not leaving until you finish."

Shades of the Jonestown massacre. The kids go to sleep and never wake up again.

Edit: Not to imply a one-to-one comparison

 

[K_Z]

Her alcohol level at time of death could have been a lot higher than at autopsy, FWIW.

I felt in was in the category of unacceptable speculation before as any kind of contributing factor to the crash, but I always suspected alcohol was part of Jen's coping methods; there was never any overt pointing to a "drinky" Jen, but rages, and hiding, and perfectionism and curated public image are just some general things that are sometimes seen in functional alcoholics.
The thing that really made me suspect it, however, were all the pics of the kids pictured "horsing around" (or posed) with wine and martini glasses, and then there was that bizarre /that happened facebook post about teens razzing Jen about whiskey in the thermos (that was them punking her with a bottle of hot chocolate).

So it's still unknown if this tank up on liquid courage was a one-off, or a very chronic problem. But I have my reasons to think she has more than one thing in common with Diane Schuler.

BBM. Not sure where you got that information, but I don't think that's an accurate statement. Alcohol does not continue to metabolize after death. Alcohol is not metabolized in the plasma at all, and it has a unique metabolic pathway that other drugs don't have. As I posted before, the bodies weren't deceased long enough, or in warm enough conditions for fermentation alcohol to appear. The bodies were less than 48 hours deceased, and likely partially or fully submerged in the cool ocean water the car was crushed and upside down in. And we know that they died on impact-- they could not have survived long enough for liver metabolism to lower the alcohol level, and alcohol is not metabolized in the gut or plasma, so plasma enzymes would not metabolize the alcohol after death.

Some info on first pass metabolism of alcohol in living persons:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8116851

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1727307/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8974331

Metabolites can determine whether the ingestion was acute, remote, or chronic:

https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa72/aa72.htm

Alcohol metabolism after death, at autopsy:

https://healthyliving.azcentral.com/alcohol-metabolism-after-death-12243970.html

Bacterial Synthesis
When someone dies, the body produces ethanol as a product of decomposition. The production of ethanol within the body begins shortly after death. As the body begins to decay, bacteria grow. The bacteria produce ethanol by converting it from sugars such as glucose. The ethanol levels rise as the body decomposes and the bacteria continue to reproduce, with concentrations approaching 1,500 mg per liter mere days after death.

Distribution
Alcohol distributes itself through the body unevenly after death. The difference in water content among various body fluids and tissues causes alcohol to appear in higher or lower levels. Blood plasma, for example, has higher water content than whole blood, so it may show a 10 percent to 15 percent higher alcohol level. The gel-like substance inside the eye known as the vitreous humour, on the other hand, seems to collect little or no postmortem alcohol. Measuring the alcohol content in this fluid can, therefore, give the medical examiner a better idea of the pre-death alcohol level.

Considerations
If the deceased person was involved in an accident or caused an event that injured or killed others, experts must take care to either confirm or rule out intoxication as a factor. Because alcohol production in the body after death is chemically the same as that from drinking, blood-alcohol content alone cannot determine whether the person consumed alcohol before death. The alcohol level of the person's urine may not give an accurate before-death picture either. The vitreous humour sample usually proves more useful in estimating intoxication, but in the end, the medical examiner must take into account the body's weight, age, sex, fat content, time of death and other factors.

 

[Gecko100]

BBM - .102 not 1.02 which is slightly over the legal limit not over 13x, right?

Yeah I think KZ mentioned that, but the cooler they are the less likelihood of fermentation.

 

[kizzykat]

"Put food into a box"? What on earth does that mean. I though you were supposed to food into the refrigerator, into the cupboard, into your mouth.....

I noticed in the aerial of the house what appeared to be blue plastic storage boxes inside the garage. I could be wrong but at first glance that's what it looked like to me. The house appears so tidy and organized, maybe they kept extra canned goods/boxed goods in totes like that? With 8 people in the house there probably wasn't enough room in the cupboards for everything?
Here is the house photo:
http://www.thenewstribune.com/lates...8299569/alternates/FREE_1140/hart_family1.jpg

 

[kizzykat]

Shades of the Jonestown massacre. The kids go to sleep and never wake up again.

That what was I thought right away this afternoon, it's kind of like Jonestown.

 

[mtnlites]

Benadryl comes in both pill and liquid form.

Liquid could easily be mixed into a fruit or vegetable smoothie.

"Drink it all up, everyone. We're not leaving until you finish."

Or it could have simply been, "We're going on a curvy road. You all had better take this or else you'll get car sick." Children are mostly trustworthy. Mine hate taking medicine but I've never had to "hide" it from them. I tell them they need it, they take it.

 

[HeidiTX232]

"Somewhat surprisingly, Benadryl can have a paradoxical reaction in some individuals and cause CNS (central nervous system) stimulation, even at recommended dosages. This is sometimes known as paradoxical excitation. Some describe this reaction as making them feel "hyper". Studies indicate that this occurs most commonly in children and adolescents, but has been reported in adults as well."
https://www.pharmacistanswers.com/questions/can-benadryl-make-you-hyper

It makes me EXTREMELY hyper and angry. It is beyond uncomfortable too. That stuff is evil!

 

[K_Z]

Hydroxyzine, which is basically Benedryl, is often prescribed for anxiety. Some doctors consider it a safer alternative to benzos.

Hydroxyzine is brand name Vistaril. It is chemically different than diphenhydramine/ benadryl, and is not over the counter. It is only prescription.

 

[Poppyflower]

It makes me EXTREMELY hyper and angry. It is beyond uncomfortable too. That stuff is evil!

I'm speculating, but I think they have had the kids long enough to know what effect benedryl had on them because of previous use. moo

 

[K_Z]

That what was I thought right away this afternoon, it's kind of like Jonestown.

For accuracy, Jonestown was cyanide poisoning, which killed those who ingested it voluntarily, or by force. Benadryl didn't kill the kids. It may have made them sleepy, but it's not a deadly poison or an anesthetic.

But I can see what people mean-- that the kids were potentially drugged against their will with the goal of either being "compassionate" about the fear and experience of the crash impact, or to make them more compliant during the cliff dive process.

 

[mtnlites]

Hydroxyzine is brand name Vistaril. It is chemically different than diphenhydramine/ benadryl, and is not over the counter. It is only prescription.

Yes, I realize this. I take it myself. Like Benedryl, however, it is an antihistamine and used for allergic reactions but can also work for anxiety. The two share similar properties in that they're antihistamines but can have other uses, including working for short-term anxiety (though some people have a reverse reaction and find themselves restless or hyper). I am not going to go off on a tangent that is off topic but the information is out there for anyone who wants to search for it.

 

[Breezie]

Carpenter said the family stopped in the small town of Naselle, Washington, near their Woodland, Washington, home, during their drive to the California cliff but that investigators are still trying to determine why they stopped there and whether they contacted anyone.


https://www.wftv.com/news/national-...v-with-family-off-cliff-was-drunk-1/731932786

 

[mtnlites]

Carpenter said the family stopped in the small town of Naselle, Washington, near their Woodland, Washington, home, during their drive to the California cliff but that investigators are still trying to determine why they stopped there and whether they contacted anyone.


https://www.wftv.com/news/national-...v-with-family-off-cliff-was-drunk-1/731932786

I'd like to hear from people who saw them at those stops. How did they appear? What kind of moods did they seem to be in? Etc. etc.

 

[kizzykat]

For accuracy, Jonestown was cyanide poisoning, which killed those who ingested it voluntarily, or by force. Benadryl didn't kill the kids. It may have made them sleepy, but it's not a deadly poison or an anesthetic.

But I can see what people mean-- that the kids were potentially drugged against their will with the goal of either being "compassionate" about the fear and experience of the crash impact, or to make them more compliant during the cliff dive process.

Yes, your last sentence is what I was referring to, and IMHO it was done for compliance.

 

[HeidiTX232]

I'm speculating, but I think they have had the kids long enough to know what effect benedryl had on them because of previous use. moo

I’m sure. I actually wonder if Jen may have had the paradoxical reaction, maybe doing it to embolden herself to commit this heinous crime?

 

[K_Z]

Yes, your last sentence is what I was referring to, and IMHO it was done for compliance.

I agree. I don't think there is any scenario where all of this, starting with ignoring the CPS worker at the door, leads up to any kind of accident.

This was, IMO, a very intentional murder/ suicide family annihilation.

 

[K_Z]

I’m sure. I actually wonder if Jen may have had the paradoxical reaction, maybe doing it to embolden herself to commit this heinous crime?

IIRC, only Sarah had the diphenhydramine in her system according to the news reports. Jen had alcohol, but no mention of the benadryl in her system.

And why take a depressant (alcohol) if you know you somehow have an excitation reaction to benadryl, and want to "amp up"?? Not logical. Most average adults (and kids and teens) do not have excitation reactions to benadryl. IMO, Jen ingesting alcohol was liquid courage to do the deed.