CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #6

[Shiressleuth]

<modsnip> Speaking about facts, it wasn&#8216;t one of the kids who drove the SUV down the cliff. Drunk. And it wasn&#8216;t one of the kids who pleaded guilty to a domestic assault charge.

Could any of the kids drive BTW?
( Markis at age 19 could have been driving for 3 years and there were two others old enough I think)

 

[fridaybaker]

<modsnip>

I also find it ironic, though, that the children were removed for the mother using drugs (as many others are as well) when it doesn't seem to be a problem for adopted children to be placed in environments where drugs are being used, if not directly by the parents, by others, often being literally surrounded by them. I suppose we live in a culture which is so fractured, there will never be much agreement about anything, though. I can't for the life of me think that anyone thinks it appropriate to post photos of a minor online in his underwear. Very scanty underwear, if we want to be honest.

Devonte was a very attractive, charming and engaging boy who sort of oozed charisma. Gorgeous smile, bright, and utterly charming. And he was put front and center in such a public way, both in "real life" situations, such as festivals and protests, as well as online. (Really, the Xavier Rudd hug gave me the creeps -so long, so tight, so intimate. Not to mention the whole "animal suit".)

However, none of that is "abuse". At least in some quarters.

 

[fridaybaker]

RSBM

So none of them has seatbelts on. They were pulling into a scenic viewpoint, braking 70 feet from the cliff then accelerating out over the edge.

No seat belts could mean getting ready to get out of the car. Suddenly accelerating could be a tragic mistake by someone alcohol impaired or a deliberate act. If it was deliberate why take off the seatbelts? Why would that matter in a deliberate event going over a 100 foot cliff? How many car lengths is 70 feet? Maybe only 6 or 7.

Shiresleuth, I really think they weren't getting ready to get out of the car, as they had "substantial" Benedryl in their systems. As far as alcohol, JH was not "drunk" in the sense of staggering drunk, at least in my opinion. She was just above the legal limit to drive. The BAC fits much better with someone who was working up courage/had lost some inhibition/however one wants to put it, vs. too drunk to find a brake in an emergency. That fits better with a BAC of 3 or something.

Remember, even at the end of 65 feet of "acceleration", there was nary a sign of even a swerve. She wasn't "falling down drunk"; she was tipsy. If she couldn't find the brake, couldn't she have at least turned the wheel?

Just my thoughts and 2 cents.

 

[gitana1]

Possibly. I have a rare type of a connective tissue disorder called Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. (I have Vascular EDS with crossover HEDS.) It has caused my small stature (4'10" and 95 lbs) and has given me a lot of oral issues: TMJ, frequent periodontal disease, and tooth loss. I am 38 and actually getting a whole set of dentures this year, which I am THRILLED about. My mouth has been painful for so long and it's pointless to keep doing root canals and crowns on me-the disorder won't hold them. Although EDS causes my organs to randomly rupture (I've lost my spleen, gallbladder, appendix, uterus, and a kidney), has given me a thoracic aneurysm, and causes pretty severe pain throughout my body on the PLUS side it makes me totally flexible! ;-)

You can't diagnose anyone from a few pictures on the internet but Hannah's overall size and stature look very similar to my own. So yes, it is possible that she has something genetic. We may never know, however. If the Harts didn't have testing done then THEY may not have known. And EDS (especially VEDS) is so rare that most doctors don't test for it-some haven't heard of it.

Note: not implying that Hannah's size is ONLY a result from a condition and not malnutrition. She still could have been malnourished. Just agreeing that there could have been a contributing factor to her small size.

One thing though. They lied to the neighbors about her age. Said she was 12 although she's really 16. To me that indicates her stature and tooth loss are probably from something other than an organic issue.

BBM (Article from 2014)

https://web.archive.org/web/20150627182651/http:/papertrail.co.nz/meet-devonte-little-boy-big-heart/

Total savior complex. And the media eats it up. Child is hopeless and fated to a hellish life until these two, wonderful women pour all their love and attention etc., into the children as miraculously save them from their fate and heal them.

I feel their adoptions served their narcissistic narratives. They weren't for the purposes like others who adopt children who just want to love and care for kids who need homes. IMO. Or at the least it morphed into something else along the way.

True, but if you consider the alcohol and benadryl how close to the time they drive off the cliff do you think their decision could have been? Like I think it's possible they didn't have it planned before they left, but for sure hours before they pulled off the road they knew what they were going to do.

Yes. It can take time to gather the courage to kill yourself and your family. I think the decision was made soon after they left, felt cornered and knew they couldn't find a way out this time.

Why do you think this time? Devonte did not want to be split up so I would think they would cover any story the gruesome twosome came up with.

What was different this time?

What was different is two separate kids escaped the home and sought help from others. I know Devonte said he was afraid to be split up but he also asked them a few times if they had called CPS yet. These kids were terrified and knew things had escalated to a very dangerous spot. They were older. They were actively reaching out.

Jen and Sarah had lost all control. The jig was up. To me it's as simple as that.

 

[?mysterian?]

Could any of the kids drive BTW?

I haven't read anything that mentioned that, so I don't know, sorry. It's entirely possible that I've missed that

 

[fridaybaker]

Having an opinion of one's own is not the same as judging.

Longlong, I just wanted to add: We all judge. All day long. All the time. We make judgements about the neighbor who just moved in: Are they friendly? Do they seem hostile? We make judgments about co-workers, about family. It's the way we decide about who to interact with, who to marry, who to stay away from.

The problem about making judgments comes when we decide that we know a person's being/soul, etc. and can make an "ultimate" judgment about that person. Judgments that help us order our lives, make decisions about with whom we associate, etc., are natural, normal and essential. However, we always have to be mindful that no one can fully understand/know another person's life, soul, etc., so we only make those judgments on a sort of "conditional" level, one that helps us in life, but where we are cognizant that we aren't in a position to know everything. So, we should always be quite circumspect about it. "Judge not, lest ye be judged", in other words.

My POV.

 

[Doghairrules]

Ha-- I can't hardly remember anything from 20 years ago, or 10 years ago or...

Yesterday? That’s me. It’s amazing to me the trivial stuff I do remember though. Lol

 

[gitana1]

I haven't seen the specific wording, only that she said she was sick and might have to go to the hospital. I thought she was buying time, sort of a pre-emptive don't expect to hear from her for a day or two. If she didn't know what was going to happen but thought she would be back? Like she needed a few days free of whatever obligations.

I have no idea if she knew her friend would call 911, but by the time she did it was already too late.

If she knew what was going to happen when she sent the text - people who are suicidal do puzzling things all the time.

I think they were at a crisis point at that time. She probably felt like hospitalization due to nervous breakdown could explain away what the kids were going to say to CPS. She took the fall before and may have been setting it up todo so again. Or she felt cornered and suicidal and did think she needed help but her crazy spouse added to the paranoia and suggested fleeing instead of seeking help. She could have even had and/or discussed suicide plans with Jen by then but wasn't sure and/or realized that was sick thinking and was reaching out for help.

I don't think suicide and murder are easy or quick decisions. Just look at the terrible case of of Conrad Roy III.

 

[Kajol85]

I'm guessing the mothers did use drugs. I highly suspect they gave them to the kids as well. IMO, only. Yet as someone who has been to similar festivals there are some spaces that are fine for kids, but plenty that aren't. The SM post is a grown man talking about getting a back rub from Abigail, it's really disturbing.
I also can't shake the fact of Jen having Devonte hug randoms. He isn't Ammachi, I don't believe for one second that was his idea. She knew Devonte was beautiful and charming and they could use him to get close to "celebrities " they wanted

 

[flourish]

I'm guessing the mothers did use drugs. I highly suspect they gave them to the kids as well. IMO, only. Yet as someone who has been to similar festivals there are some spaces that are fine for kids, but plenty that aren't. The SM post is a grown man talking about getting a back rub from Abigail, it's really disturbing.
I also can't shake the fact of Jen having Devonte hug randoms. He isn't Ammachi, I don't believe for one second that was his idea. She knew Devonte was beautiful and charming and they could use him to get close to "celebrities " they wanted

What is your drug use opinion based on? Why do you highly suspect not only the mom's were drug users but drugged their children as well???? Do you mean the Benadryl, because that is the only indication regarding drugs of any kind that we've heard so far....except the allegations against the bio mom(s)...

It's pretty strong words to not only accuse someone of using drugs, but to accuse them of drugging minors...so I'm very curious to hear what you base that upon...it may be an opinion, but opinions don't come out of nowhere...

 

[PetDetective]

This article http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/deadly_hart_family_crash_may_h.html states "Data taken from the software of the GMC Yukon driven by the Hart family shows the vehicle came to a complete stop at Route 1 pullout near the town of Westport, the California Highway Patrol said. The SUV then sped off the edge of scenic rock face and plunged 100 feet below.That information combined with the fact that there were no skid marks at the scene has led investigators to believe the crash was no accident, authorities said.".

Also, I recall seeing divots in the sand that appeared to be from either accelerating or braking hard. Now that we have the data from the car’s computer, I think it is safe to say they were caused by the acceleration.

Had she simply took her foot off of the brake and the car rolled over the cliff slowly, there only would have been tire tracks. You wouldn’t be able to see where they started so clearly from the air.


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[fridaybaker]

Often surrounded by drug use??? Are you referring to the festivals and events? They took them to events where some people may have been using drugs, yes, but that doesn't mean they stood in the middle of a bong circle or even attended Hempfest (which still isn't everyone doing drugs all over all the time) or something. As has been mentioned NUMEROUS times, many of these places have family-friendly areas.

The underwear dancing, though? Absolutely not okay to film and post. Agreed 100% there.

{Shrug. I saw so many children at the Oregon Country Fair I think some of the folks here would break their pearls clutching them so tightly if they saw that place lol....just google "Oregon Country Fair" and you'll see what I mean...the political event and run-of-the-mill music festivals are nothing compared, and it's considered a family event, as well...}

Flourish, I wasn't speaking specifically about festivals and events. I was really just talking in general. It's amazing to me the differences/similarities between what some children are removed from their own parents from, and what happens in the adoptive situation.

 

[Starkville]

Why do you think they turned round at Fort Bragg?

Also, why call in sick for work if you are going to top yourself. That doesn't make sense.

IMO, Sarah didn’t know that Jen was going to murder them all. Maybe she thought they were going back home after a weekend away, that things were settled, that she’d talked Jen off the ledge (pun not intended).

 

[Starkville]

Could any of the kids drive BTW?
( Markis at age 19 could have been driving for 3 years and there were two others old enough I think)

I seriously doubt Jen would have allowed the kids to get anything that would give them ANY autonomy. Control freaks just don’t do that.

 

[PetDetective]

I just listened to the CHP officer’s account of what the air bag control module report consisted of and he stated that after the car came to a stop 70 feet from the edge, it was pure acceleration until the car hit the bottom of the cliff.

That means she kept her foot on the gas even after the car went off the edge. Scratch my statement above, I still think it was intentional.


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[MrsEmmaPeel]

Something I haven't seen mention of: IF the festival circuit had connections to Osho. . .have you seen WILD WILD COUNTY? The Australian woman who served jail time? She wrote a book about her deep regrets, including the fact that both her children were sexually abused in the Rahjneesh community, which she didn't know until years later. That Osho hated children and didn't want them there, although there were children there. My point is, that where you have those large throngs of people being "free" sexually and otherwise it's really easy to hurt children. IF the Hart children were abused sexually, it's just another factor in their inability to speak out. Sexual abuse, from my experience, undermines self will, health, self-confidence, one's sense of reality, and one's ability to choose safety. It creates permanent damage. So more Stockholm Syndrome, beyond any abuse by S&J. Not important, just an observation.

 

[mommylicious]

Not sure when the decision was made, but the fact that Jen had alcohol in her system and Sarah and at least 2 of the kids had Benadryl (or similar) in theirs makes me think there was at least some level of premeditation.

I know that it's possible that Hannah and Devonte just haven't been recovered yet, but boy that would be easier to believe if it were any other combination of 2 kids. The fact that it's THESE two does give me pause. Not really sure what to think other than hoping that they are at peace, wherever they are.

 

[katydid23]

It makes sense that they were going to try and get away. They did that in the past. Maybe the friends were not home? You need a passport or a special ID to go to Nexico.

It is weird to me that they would take such a long drive for no purpose.

The 'long drive' , imo, was to leave the state to escape the clutches of CPS, as they had done before.

But this time, the kids were much older, less coachable, more rebellious, and the moms had a longer history of abuse accusations. I think they were finally accepting that they were not going to get away with the abuse anymore and they felt trapped.

 

[Shiressleuth]

None of this will get kids taken by CPS in any state (if they follow the rules on the books, that is). CPS is taught to respect family culture, and they *do* allow corporal punishment that doesn't leave marks, and all the rest of the things you mention. Absolutely none of that - spanking, occasional bed-without-supper, grounding, homeschooling, one-room-schooling, non-vaccination, midwives, abstention from federal documentation, lack of electicity/computers/cars/photos - is illegal. (Meal punishments can typically include "go to bed without dinner" once in a blue moon, but not missing meals with any kind of frequency that would leave a child regularly hungry or malnourished.)

To be very clear: what you listed that the Amish do (assuming it meets the guidelines I mentioned above) is not illegal. It is not considered child abuse by the law or by CPS, regardless of what you or I might think.

What the Harts did - closed-fist beating over a bath tub that left bruising from sternum to navel, dunking head under cold water, withholding meals regularly and/or for days - this is not legal. It's abuse and neglect.

So why were they allowed to keep the kids? If that beating was assault as it sounds like. That's what I cannot fathom. And only probation ffs.

 

[Doghairrules]

Malnourished, missing teeth, scars, broken bones that hadn't healed correctly... And I was thinking since no one had seen the kids in months what if one of them was seriously ill? What happens if CPS shows up and one of your children has pneumonia or a broken wrist?

Good points. Also this time it has likely been much longer since the kids had medical and dental care and it’s definitely been much longer that they’ve lived with S & J, so harder to put things off on early life imo.