CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #6

[flourish]

Any people with backgrounds on child development, I have some questions.

Given the isolation these kids were subjected to, for almost 7 years, how would that affect their adolescent stage?

I keep reading people posting about these kids becoming rebellious as teens, but my gut says they would not be.They have had no peer relationships, and apparent minimal interaction with peers outside of their siblings. Most of their limited interactions seem to have been with adults, and most likely they were hearing what a wonderful job their parents were doing and how loving they were towards the kids. If this is true, it would have created a very warped and conflicted sense of love within these kids.

Markis was 7 when he was adopted and 12 when he was pulled out of school. Of all the kids, he had the longest interaction and exposure to the outside world and developing relationships. Sierra, as the youngest, was still a baby when she was adopted. I'm guessing she did not attend preschool. She would have been in kindergarten when she was pulled from public school and "homeschooling began.

These kids did not have age peers to model behaviors. We have no idea if these kids watched TV or movies that might help shape their attitudes and self-images.

If the recent reports about Jen's bad year around May 2017 are true, followed by their move to Woodland where the family rarely went out, then these past two years had to be extreme isolation.

My degrees are in child development and related. I don't know that it could be said for certain, but some arrested development would, in my opinion, be more likely to be present than not. To what degrees idk?

 

[Shiressleuth]

I have seen the things you mention. I really wish we could link to the post about the massage because I think if everyone here saw it, knowing how people on WS develop a nose for predators, the verdict would be pretty unanimous.

If it is JH or SH social media it is allowed I think. If not then ask a mod for permission.

Regarding drug use on the children that was how LE knew about the benadryl, from the toxicology reports, so I think anything else would show up too.

I've also read that LE took a laptop from the house during the search, so that may give them some info.

 

[gitana1]

What is your drug use opinion based on? Why do you highly suspect not only the mom's were drug users but drugged their children as well???? Do you mean the Benadryl, because that is the only indication regarding drugs of any kind that we've heard so far....except the allegations against the bio mom(s)...

It's pretty strong words to not only accuse someone of using drugs, but to accuse them of drugging minors...so I'm very curious to hear what you base that upon...it may be an opinion, but opinions don't come out of nowhere...

You and I know there has been the "they're lesbians so they must've been sexual abusers" insinuation wafting through these threads on occasion. That's the sense I'm sort of getting maybe? (I hope not).

I think it's clear the women neglected and harshly abused their kids physically and emotionally. There is zero to indicate sexual abuse though and insinuations along that line evoke the outdated prejudices and theories that gay people are more prone to being sexual abusers or pedophiles. Which is flat untrue. And thus offensive.

Also, nothing to indicate they used drugs or even drank. The opposite. Being hippies and going to those kind of festivals or events doesn't mean a
person is a drug user. Plenty go and for most the worst they might do is smoke pot, which is far less dangerous than alcohol. But many others don't even do that.

I'd venture to guess there's more drug use at a county fair than at one of those festivals. There's definitely more crime and violence from drunks at a county fair than at a hippy fest!

 

[human]

Perhaps I missed where possible behavioral issues comes into it... So what if there were behavioral issues in 1, 2, or all of the children? I apologise that I must have missed the origin of that so hoping someone will refresh that part of the conversation for me, please.

The principal in MN said the kids were well behaved.

They managed to go to festivals .

 

[human]

If you mean Mendocino area and Ft Bragg, I am. I lived there briefly. It is unbelievably remote, and I found it "dark" and depressing from all the redwoods and forest, even close to the coast. It also felt secretive, like lots of people went there to run from scrutiny. We had to get a new cellphone that worked in the area, because only one cell carrier did. (8 yrs ago) We also couldn't find a rental (thank goodness!). One rental we visited, the owner told us that the previous tenants had a meth lab in the garage. We said no thank you. There is an extreme housing shortage there, and no jobs. Houses are few and very expensive. Mostly summer residents from places like San Francisco, except there were some houses in Ft Bragg that were more modest. The few jobs are seasonal for tourism. Winter starts early and ends late. Lots of poverty, marijuana growing (legal and illegal), homelessness. I do remember meeting several lesbian couples, and there are at least a few lesbian-friendly inns on the coast. It's unbelievable beautiful. But everyone knows how often people fall off the cliffs or the cliffs give way. If they had visited before there are signs everywhere, regarding cliff danger. When they say nobody saw them, it didn't surprise me. If you wanted to run, Mendocino and Ft Bragg are ideal. The only ways in were 2-lane roads when I was there, and very dangerous twisty-turny ones. Hope that helps.

Thanks. So jobs, rental and buying are probably not options. But friends until something could be formulated? Sounds like people might be gone at that time of year

 

[human]

You and I know there has been the "they're lesbians so they must've been sexual abusers" insinuation wafting through these threads on occasion. That's the sense I'm sort of getting maybe? (I hope not).

I think it's clear the women neglected and harshly abused their kids physically and emotionally. There is zero to indicate sexual abuse though and insinuations along that line evoke the outdated prejudices and theories that gay people are more prone to being sexual abusers or pedophiles. Which is flat untrue. And thus offensive.

Also, nothing to indicate they used drugs or even drank. The opposite. Being hippies and going to those kind of festivals or events doesn't mean a
person is a drug user. Plenty go and for most the worst they might do is smoke pot, which is far less dangerous than alcohol. But many others don't even do that.

I'd venture to guess there's more drug use at a county fair than at one of those festivals. There's definitely more crime and violence from drunks at a county fair than at a hippy fest!

The drinking, Remember the pics of the kids and the comment about them being drunk? Where would the alcohol come from?

I have not seen anything re the pictures of the inappropriate interactions, but I do not get the idea it is about being a lesbian. It is about the children .

 

[lucy_lou]

Devonte had begun asking for large amounts of food. That seems like he was planning to help them all escape. And I think things had spun more out of control ing the home. The kids were now nearing young adulthood, and were not as compliant as before.

One or more of the kids may have had new injuries or bruises that would not be easily explained. It is easy to tell a story about a toddler falling down and hitting the coffee table. It is much harder to say that about a 15 or 16 yr old.

It is also harder to explain Hannah's missing teeth and the lack of dental care.

 

[flourish]

You and I know there has been the "they're lesbians so they must've been sexual abusers" insinuation wafting through these threads on occasion. That's the sense I'm sort of getting maybe? (I hope not).

I think it's clear the women neglected and harshly abused their kids physically and emotionally. There is zero to indicate sexual abuse though and insinuations along that line evoke the outdated prejudices and theories that gay people are more prone to being sexual abusers or pedophiles. Which is flat untrue. And thus offensive.

Also, nothing to indicate they used drugs or even drank. The opposite. Being hippies and going to those kind of festivals or events doesn't mean a
person is a drug user. Plenty go and for most the worst they might do is smoke pot, which is far less dangerous than alcohol. But many others don't even do that.

I'd venture to guess there's more drug use at a county fair than at one of those festivals. There's definitely more crime and violence from drunks at a county fair than at a hippy fest!

I can't thank this post enough

 

[waschbaer]

You and I know there has been the "they're lesbians so they must've been sexual abusers" insinuation wafting through these threads on occasion. That's the sense I'm sort of getting maybe? (I hope not).

I think it's clear the women neglected and harshly abused their kids physically and emotionally. There is zero to indicate sexual abuse though and insinuations along that line evoke the outdated prejudices and theories that gay people are more prone to being sexual abusers or pedophiles. Which is flat untrue. And thus offensive.

Also, nothing to indicate they used drugs or even drank. The opposite. Being hippies and going to those kind of festivals or events doesn't mean a
person is a drug user. Plenty go and for most the worst they might do is smoke pot, which is far less dangerous than alcohol. But many others don't even do that.

I'd venture to guess there's more drug use at a county fair than at one of those festivals. There's definitely more crime and violence from drunks at a county fair than at a hippy fest!

It has nothing to do with them being lesbians. It has to do with highly inappropriate situations that they either posted themselves on social media (ie, teen boy dancing in his underwear) or things from their friends' social media (ie, a teen girl giving an adult acquaintance a massage that "melted them to a puddle" at a festival.)

 

[flourish]

The drinking, Remember the pics of the kids and the comment about them being drunk? Where would the alcohol come from?

I have not seen anything re the pictures of the inappropriate interactions, but I do not get the idea it is about being a lesbian. It is about the children .

I got the impression they were PRETENDING, not actually drinking alcohol nor drunk.

 

[human]

I got the impression they were PRETENDING, not actually drinking alcohol nor drunk.

One would hope so. My point is that there is indication of alcohol as well as with the wine glasses or whatever they are.

I find it totallly bizarre that she would post pics of what appears to be drinking and joke about teenagers,

What did they have in those insulated cups on a cold day that does not steam?

Water? The whole post is so strange. Why post something like that?

 

[Shiressleuth]

How long was it that they were not seen? Sarah went to work. What did Jen do all day?

It is imteresting that neither was at home when CPS arrived. So they leave the kids homes alone. Even with the knowledge that Hannah escaped.

How does that work? LE did not say anything about finding shackles .

Markis at 19 is an adult so I guess would be in charge of the others perhaps IMO. The neighbours mentioned JH being at work and coming home first, then CPS visiting and getting no answer, then SH getting back from work and them all getting in the car and leaving. The kids must have been told not to open the door to anyone.

 

[human]

Markis at 19 is an adult so I guess would be in charge of the others perhaps IMO. The neighbours mentioned JH being at work and coming home first, then CPS visiting and getting no answer, then SH getting back from work and them all getting in the car and leaving. The kids must have been told not to open the door to anyone.

Where did JH work?

Markis could be counted on to keep Hannah from running?

 

[mtnlites]

Anyway, back OT, Hannah was 4'1" and 45lb at age 16, which is significantly less than your size, which is well within the normal range for people (most of my maternal line was 5'0" or less, and 100lb until they all went low-fat and gained 50-100lb ...). But you may be right that some combo of genetic + deprivation is responsible for her looking 7 at 16.

I am actually still questioning this claim because we don't know where it came from. It's only been on one poster and, a few boards back, we had a discussion about not knowing who provided those numbers. They may not be official.

 

[waschbaer]

Other than the offhand remark in that news story that Jen was "at work" I haven't heard anything about her working or having a job outside the home. No coworkers have come forward. No one seems to have missed her in the days they were gone. No one reported her calling in sick like Sarah did.

 

[gitana1]

[

IMO, Sarah didn’t know that Jen was going to murder them all. Maybe she thought they were going back home after a weekend away, that things were settled, that she’d talked Jen off the ledge (pun not intended).

It surprises me that so many are intent on seeing Sarah as a victim when there is zero to suggest she wasn't totally complicit in the abuse and neglect of her kids and their ultimate murder.


1. There are no accounts of abusive behavior toward her or controlling behavior on the part of Jen against her.
2. She pled guilty to abuse of her child. She had counsel and plenty of opportunities to discuss coercion in the privacy of her attorney's office or with LE. Taking the fall legally because you're battered into it seems pretty incredible without some clear signs that something abusive was happening to her.
3. BOTH mothers were witnessed with their arms folded and stern faces when they compelled their foster daughter to have a makeover she didn't seem into.
4. BOTH mothers were described as controlling with the kids by former friend who called CPS in 2013.
5. It was Sarah who was described as violently bruising Ciera and calling her selfish after a woman at a festival bought food for Ciera and Devonte. https://www.google.com/amp/s/articl...sf/2018/04/devonte_hart_family_crash_dece.amp
6. The children who admitted to physical punishment did indicate Jen was more of the disciplinarian but they also reported both parents spanked them.
7. Sarah worked outside the home and had opportunities to discuss or report the abuse of herself or her kids.
8. No one has come forward to indicate signs Sarah was being controlled or abused.
9. Sarah participated in the attempts to cover up the abuse of the kids.
10. Sarah participated in the search for Hannah and the attempts to diffuse a possible abuse allegation the next day.
11. It would be quite hard to forcibly drug a grown adult with Benadryl.
12. It would be hard to slip an adult Benadryl in enough quantity to cause unconsciousness, without detection as it causes numbness in the mouth in small amounts and has a taste.
13. While Jen had a clear social media presence and seemed to be into controlling the narrative of her family, the little we see of Sarah shows a focus by her on herself and the fake image they created of their family. "Happy birthday to meeeeee!"

When these points are looked at together, to me they show there is nothing to suggest this wasn't just another abusive couple like so many others we've read about over the years who enjoyed brutalizing their kids in an ever escalating pattern of abuse.

I think they were both in on the plan to die.

 

[flourish]

One would hope so. My point is that there is indication of alcohol as well as with the wine glasses or whatever they are.

I find it totallly bizarre that she would post pics of what appears to be drinking and joke about teenagers,

What did they have in those insulated cups on a cold day that does not steam?

Water? The whole post is so strange. Why post something like that?

I actually assumed it was either hot chocolate that had gone cold or literally nothing and it was just a prop.

 

[Kajol85]

]

Hmm seems pretty far fetched to me...... It's presumptuous enough to think the mom's did it, but drugging the kids with MDMA? Yikes. Just not feeling it. Not saying you're wrong as I wouldn't know, but nothing has indicated that to me... I chalked to the odd affection to lack of teaching and practice with social skills, not enough social interaction, possible RAD, no appropriate models for behavior. ...

I wonder and hope they are able to do hair testing on all or at least some of the bodies.

There has been tons of speculation on the case. From experience by these types of festivals a lot of people are experimenting with psychedelics. MDMA was used as a medicine to help open up emotions and increase empathy. Psychedelics are making a comeback for therapeutic treatments. Check out micro dosing.

In any case, yes this is MOO, but from photos I have seen and reading postings of various friends, seems like a lot of them were off their heads on drugs.

Also people keep also speculating the kids had issues, such as RAD or behavioral or mental impairment which is also unsubstantiated.

 

[gcharlie]

Markis at 19 is an adult so I guess would be in charge of the others perhaps IMO. The neighbours mentioned JH being at work and coming home first, then CPS visiting and getting no answer, then SH getting back from work and them all getting in the car and leaving. The kids must have been told not to open the door to anyone.

There have been no reports of Jen holding down a job and a lot of people assumed the reporter was in error in the statement of Jen coming home from work.

But if in fact Jen had just come home, it would explain why Devonte could have gone to the DeKalb house so many times over the short period of time before they called CPS. And that he was in fact trying to get ready to run away, knowing that he had a window of time when Jen was at work.

And if in fact Jen was not home when CPS came, it's possible that Devonte checked the front door after CPS left and saw the card. If true, he could very well have run away that day before his parents came home. Maybe with Hannah in tow.

Remember when Hannah ran to the DeKalb's and the whole family turned out looking for her? The family could have been looking for the kids that evening. And telling the kids they were going to further search for them by car would explain how they could get all the kids into the SUV around 3 am and drive off.

Who knows? It is all speculation. But it would help if media would clear up this initial report of Jen coming home after CPS had been there on Friday, March 23.

 

[flourish]

]



There has been tons of speculation on the case. From experience by these types of festivals a lot of people are experimenting with psychedelics. MDMA was used as a medicine to help open up emotions and increase empathy. Psychedelics are making a comeback for therapeutic treatments. Check out micro dosing.

In any case, yes this is MOO, but from photos I have seen and reading postings of various friends, seems like a lot of them were off their heads on drugs.

Also people keep also speculating the kids had issues, such as RAD or behavioral or mental impairment which is also unsubstantiated.

Considering RAD is common in adopted children, and there's nothing wrong with having RAD, while there isn't a valid reason, imo, to assume the mothers used drugs, which is a negative thing, we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

The following is unrelated to the above, and is not directed to, nor referring to, anyone in particular.

referring to gitana's post a couple pages ago, yes there has definitely been very clear insinuations about possible sexual abuse, and it really really seemed to have some ignorant homophobia behind it.