CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #6

[Lilibet]

Remind me of how she treated the child they fostered.

This part: It amazes me that she never spoke to her father again after he sent her back to live with her mother because she was abusing his trust.


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Ms Hart’s heart was sorely lacking.

 

[bluesneakers]

Plus that is the only time she got caught. Does anybody really think that is the only time she did it?

I worked in retail security at Meier and Frank for two years and nearly every person I caught said it was the first time they'd ever shoplifted. I didn't believe them and I don't believe it of her.

I only asked for clarification because I thought there had been other reported incidents (of her shoplifting) that I'd missed reading about. And I still say there's a difference between caught one time (which is NOT to say "shoplifted one time") and caught repeatedly over a length of time.

 

[waschbaer]

I take the story of alienation from her father with a grain of salt. It's possible she was just a "bad seed" and already heartless and cold even as a young teen. It's also possible that her pathological personality traits have their roots in things that happened to/around her within her family of origin. Without knowing more, I reserve judgment on whether or not she was justified in estranging from him.

 

[mtnlites]

Just to play devil's advocate, one could also argue that the reason she got caught stealing those playing cards and Nikes was because it WAS her first time and she just wasn't very good at it. Whether it continued or not is steal questionable but I do think that the act is a small piece to the bigger puzzle.

 

[MistyM]

it kinda blows me away that JH could drop people out of her life so easily, yet she couldn't die without taking her wife and children...

 

[bears10]

I had them as an adult. Probably harder to correct or those kid’s issues were easy.

The issues don’t matter in my experience. You pay for braces which includes visits and adjustments. My teeth were easy to fix but orthos aren’t going to remove braces until you’ve paid in full.

Anyway, we are taking about kids, so even if it works the way you’ve stated, there’s would be closer to $3k each. I don’t think any of them had braces though. JMO.

 

[PearlClutcher]

Jen's history of shoplifting might point to an overall pattern of impulsive and reckless behavior. Might. Just a thought that crossed my mind.

In addition to cutting nipples off of mannequins. Impulsive and over the top.

 

[mtnlites]

it kinda blows me away that JH could drop people out of her life so easily, yet she couldn't die without taking her wife and children...

Yeah, I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one. I think it was a control thing. She left situations that she couldn't "control" in a sense. If people started questioning her or looking at her in an unfavorable light then she dropped them because she couldn't have anyone around her who didn't buy into the narrative that she was creating. She took the kids with them, however, because they were "hers." She may not have looked at them as individuals but as extensions of herself. Nobody else, ie. the world, was allowed to have them. (Not sure where Sarah fits into all of this but I don't think she's exactly innocent. I just don't know much about her.)

 

[debbiegarcia36]

it kinda blows me away that JH could drop people out of her life so easily, yet she couldn't die without taking her wife and children...

Yes! In a weird macabe way you could say driving off the cliff was Jen's sick way to eliminate Sarah and the kids from her life. So horrible.

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[waschbaer]

In addition to cutting nipples off of mannequins. Impulsive and over the top.

That's another good example. It was a weird thing to fixate on (it's not like nippleless mannequins are somehow less objectifying anyhow!) and she could have gotten in big trouble with her supervisors for destroying company property like that.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

I take the story of alienation from her father with a grain of salt. It's possible she was just a "bad seed" and already heartless and cold even as a young teen. It's also possible that her pathological personality traits have their roots in things that happened to/around her within her family of origin. Without knowing more, I reserve judgment on whether or not she was justified in estranging from him.

Didnt the father say that he and Jen had a disagreement in 2001 and she never talked to him again?

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[debbiegarcia36]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Mine is limited: two cousins and two friends' sons with it. One is so heavily medicated he's basically non-functional, one is in and out of jail and hallucinates but not dangerous, two are adopted (different families in different states) but show signs of RAD and bipolar and schizophrenia and who knows what else and are dangerous on an irregular basis to their very loving and gentle-but-firm families, and have had to be institutionalized but their parents can't keep them there forever and are quite concerned about what they might do once they're no longer minors and/or if they ever get their hands on a gun.

My conclusion from my very limited experience (and researching school shooters) has been that people who become psychotically violent are often schizophrenic and bipolar, but those who are schizophrenic and/or bipolar are very rarely violent. (I do have another cousin, a grandmother, and a neighbor who are bipolar without schizo. The man is occasionally violent (suicidal and also threatened to kill his wife multiple times); one of the women is in and out of jail and either abusing everyone close to her or genuinely loving them; the other, before her death, was the same but without the jail part. She was very narcissistic. She reminds me a *lot* of the jekyll/hyde personality that I sorta see in Jen.

I'm no kind of expert. Just an observer.



It's that last bit that I'm wondering about, specifically in the last 18 months of her life. I was stunned when they said the Safeway pic was her; she had looked very much the same from the time she was a little girl in that pic in the recent article till now, consistently over decades, but suddenly she looks like a totally different person, unkempt, overweight, not even facially very similar. Almost no one saw them in that last 18 months, including their "intimate friends." What happened in that time period?



You're a very good friend to care so much to learn about it like that. And I agree with all the rest, too.



Especially when you consider the rule of thumb that your house shouldn't cost more than 3x your income. If we assume 53k and add the 1900/mo, that's still only a $225k house if you don't want to be over-stretched, and I'm 90% certain I read that the WA house was in the mid 300s.

And then there is the anti-social personality disorder.

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[Doghairrules]

In addition to cutting nipples off of mannequins. Impulsive and over the top.

Yeah. It was shocking to me that she apparently wasn’t disciplined for that. I worked in retail for a number of years and that would not have been okay.

 

[bluesneakers]

Characteristics of family killers revealed by first taxonomy study

Family breakup was the most common cause, accounting for 66% of cases, although this included related domestic issues such as access to children. Financial difficulties were the second most commonly cited motive; followed by honour killing and mental illness.

Inside The Mind of Family Annhilators

According to Websdale, these men fall along a continuum between what he calls "livid coercive" killers and "civil reputable" ones. The former are driven by rage: they are controlling and sometimes abusive figures who derive self-worth from the authority they exert at home. But that behavior typically plunges the marriage into crisis, often prompting the wife and children to try to leave. The resulting lack of control triggers feelings of humiliation, eventually leading the father to reassert his power in a final paroxysm of violence.

 

[LeighB]

Who was it who said that no one minded that she sawed them off because everyone liked them? What is our source for that story?

I'm just wondering if it's Jen.

Is it psychopath or sociopath who has no empathy? And I think the other has no conscience?

 

[KeepCalm]

Who was it who said that no one minded that she sawed them off because everyone liked them? What is our source for that story?

I'm just wondering if it's Jen.

Is it psychopath or sociopath who has no empathy? And I think the other has no conscience?

Neither. Sociopathy and Pychopathy is two sides of the same coin. Both exhibit same general signs, however, psychopaths tend to do real harm to others and in society. Sociopaths lack emotional nuances, but generally get along well enough with others to fly under the radar.

 

[fridaybaker]

It's reminiscent of what she told Hannah to tell the DeKalbs about having had a rough week.

Bingo. It's her excuse every time.

 

[fridaybaker]

No, I don’t think it was the first or last time she shoplifted. I still want to know how they supported their lifestyle and afforded two adoptions of three kids each in their 20’s. And did she teach the kids to steal? Horrible thought, but it would explain the dramatic overreaction to finding a penny in the pocket of Hannah (?) or was it Abigail (?). I’m probably reaching though. It may just have been because it reflected her past.
JMO

But Lilibet, you bring up a good point, and one I've wondered about ever since I read it: Why would a child be punished for having a penny in her pocket??? Okay, let me rephrase: Why on earth would a child be punished for having a penny in her pocket?

 

[human]

I think that is what normal parents do. We try variousness treatments, even if it seems a long shot. We try a new therapist if the current one isn’t making progress. We change supplementary educational programs. We try a new support. We read more books. We find another support group. We look into what our next step might be. We give them every opportunity.

It crossed my mind that we might try having our one son have his own apartment and that it may or may not work long term. We may find the right interventions so he can be successful. Or we might have to try some other option. Or maybe the first three times he won’t be ready; but the fourth time will work out beautifully. Who knows what it will take.

Can’t imagine not keeping our options open though! It would teach him (and our other kids also) very wrong lessons and values to just give up when he is so young. Every person has their strengths and can be helped with areas of concern. And no one is perfect! We just take our perfectly imperfections and do the best we can and teach our kids to also.

I really wonder about the Harts regarding this. Why would you not do this? I get that it became about them instead of the kids. But what about things like:

1) what will my kids think if we don’t give them these opportunities?

2) what will people say when they realize how _____ the kids are, they could have _____?

3) what if someone (state, bio family, etc) confronts me about holding them back, abusing them like ____, etc?

4) what if the kids get their records that show the truth?

Did they really think that they would never have to answer to anyone ever?

Well, I guess they didn’t. But certainly murder-suicide wasn’t always in the plan!

Easy. They did what they could but what do you expect from such a screwed up beginning and then all of the horrible things said and done to them cuz they are black kids in a lesbian family. Not their fault! ( Sarah and Jen)

 

[jenves]

ok...i’m joining the party a lil late...but have there been confirmation (from hotel staff, gas station staff, etc) that the two missing kids were in fact with them on this excursion? i’ve been reading thru everything but i probably missed this conversation.