CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #6

[mtnlites]

You and I know there has been the "they're lesbians so they must've been sexual abusers" insinuation wafting through these threads on occasion. That's the sense I'm sort of getting maybe? (I hope not).

I think it's clear the women neglected and harshly abused their kids physically and emotionally. There is zero to indicate sexual abuse though and insinuations along that line evoke the outdated prejudices and theories that gay people are more prone to being sexual abusers or pedophiles. Which is flat untrue. And thus offensive.

Also, nothing to indicate they used drugs or even drank. The opposite. Being hippies and going to those kind of festivals or events doesn't mean a
person is a drug user. Plenty go and for most the worst they might do is smoke pot, which is far less dangerous than alcohol. But many others don't even do that.

I'd venture to guess there's more drug use at a county fair than at one of those festivals. There's definitely more crime and violence from drunks at a county fair than at a hippy fest!

I am going to be that person...

I have been very polite in offering firsthand experiences to these kinds of festivals and fairs. It's true, however, that I am getting offended at these blanket statements such as "half the people are high." No they're not. I have not seen anymore drug use at these "hippy festivals" (and since when was it okay to demonize "hippies"? this is not the 60s or 70s), than I have at county fairs, as you said. Insinuating that they drugged their children with LSD or something else other than what LE has said (Benedryl substance) is prejudiced against these groups of people and, frankly, I am not okay with it. These are kind of my people, you know, and to constantly have to keep coming forward and defending the festival circuit, or hippies in general, is getting tedious and going totally off topic on this board. (And it makes me look super defensive which, at this point, I am.)

It does not matter what festivals these women attended. It doesn't matter if they wouldn't allow sugar, if they wanted to live off the grid a little, or that they homeschooled. Any neglect and abuse they committed is on them and has nothing to do with their lifestyles. There are no studies that show that drug use at "hippie festivals" affects more than 50% of the crowd. There aren't any studies that show that hippies are more likely to abuse their children than non-hippies. There are millions of people out there who live this kind of lifestyle and do NOT abuse, neglect, drug, or kill their children. If someone does those things, it's because there's something not right (personality disorder, previous trauma, mental illness, etc.) inside of them, not because they put on some long skirts and danced to drum music at a peace rally on frequent occasions.

All IMO.

 

[Kajol85]

You and I know there has been the "they're lesbians so they must've been sexual abusers" insinuation wafting through these threads on occasion. That's the sense I'm sort of getting maybe? (I hope not).

I think it's clear the women neglected and harshly abused their kids physically and emotionally. There is zero to indicate sexual abuse though and insinuations along that line evoke the outdated prejudices and theories that gay people are more prone to being sexual abusers or pedophiles. Which is flat untrue. And thus offensive.

Also, nothing to indicate they used drugs or even drank. The opposite. Being hippies and going to those kind of festivals or events doesn't mean a
person is a drug user. Plenty go and for most the worst they might do is smoke pot, which is far less dangerous than alcohol. But many others don't even do that.

I'd venture to guess there's more drug use at a county fair than at one of those festivals. There's definitely more crime and violence from drunks at a county fair than at a hippy fest!

Has zero to do with their sexuality. ZERO.

I haven't actually seen anyone make this claim so don't twist. Psychedelic use at these kind of festivals is prevalent. Making that statement isn't saying that county fairs where drinking is rampant are totally safe. I have no problem with these festivals, have attended many similar ones, but they are decidedly adult spaces. Sure there may also be family areas, but from looking through photos the Hart children are often the few kids there.

Fact is those women used kids to get close to stars, Matisyahu, Nahko, Winona LaDuke Bernie

They seemed like some pseudo hippie groupies, IMO.

Again doing some searching (sleuthing) on other sites and you can find some very questionable posts and photos.

 

[Kajol85]

I am actually still questioning this claim because we don't know where it came
from. It's only been on one poster and, a few boards back, we had a discussion about not knowing who provided those numbers. They may not be official.

It's from the Sherrif. It's LE's estimate of weight and heights

 

[gitana1]

So why were they allowed to keep the kids? If that beating was assault as it sounds like. That's what I cannot fathom. And only probation ffs.

Here are some theories:

Disparity in treatment of child abuse allegations depending on race:
https://slate.com/human-interest/20...-disparity-in-child-abuse-investigations.html

Societal narrative of white adoptive parents as saviors and rescuers and black adoptive children as bad and less deserving of protection:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...-devonte-hart-and-his-white-adoptive-mothers/

Certain moms have their kids taken away and go to jail for letting them sit literally 30 feet away during a job interview. But not nice ladies like Jen and Sarah Hart:

"The ways in which Sarah and Jennifer managed to continually evade the notice (or action) of officials is a luxury that is by and large only provided to white parents." See link above.

 

[rosemadderlake]

However, friends of the couple painted a picture of a happy, loving family.

“They were really radiant, warm, adventurous inspiring people. They were always on some grand adventure, and the kids were living this life that was kind of like this dream,” Zippy Lomax, a photographer in Portland, told The Associated Press. “The family was this very self-supporting unit that was impossible to miss. When they showed up to an event, they made an impression. They shattered a lot of norms and they did not shy away from controversy or adversity.”

https://www.metroweekly.com/2018/03...killed-after-driving-off-cliff-in-california/

---
Not sure I can or should post her links here, but Zippy Lomax, photographer has pictures of the festivals this family attended. Her FB has galleries. IMO, this is a happy looking bunch of people, everyone out with their kids, smiling babies, etc. nice photographs.

What creeps me out are the hug photos. Not sure a full on protest is the place for a child. And, the extended hug video with the musician just feels all kinds of wrong, to me.

And after all the supposed blowback from Devonte's viral hug photo, they attended the Sander's rally, again being photographed front and center.

So part of the family image crafted is one of drawing attention to their "otherness" as a righteous statement. "They shattered a lot of norms" as Zippy so well described in the article.

I think this is where the perception of Jen using these children as props comes in. But really, to me it feels like no boundaries. This is especially evident in Jen's words about encouraging Devonte to face his fears when he encountered the officer. That is such a 360 tone deaf statement coming from someone who really has no idea. And why heap that history in that way on a then 12 year old boy.

From what I can gather this whole family facade seems to have broken down over a year ago, the move to WA, the retreat away from their social groups, and the kids, Devonte, and Hannah running for help, in distress.

And how could this situation have been a healthy one for a couple? Something had to have been broken for them to do this to each other. And I think they feared a life in jail more than any separation from the kids. And what kind headspace were they in when they decided it's better to take all the witnesses with them?

I'll never understand it. Appearances can be so deceiving. And some kind of off the charts vanity about them, who they were, fell apart seemingly at the drop of a hat. That's not love. And I'm so sorry these children full of promise weren't given a chance.

It will be a miracle if Devonte and Hannah are still alive.

 

[Kajol85]

I am going to be that person..

I have been very polite in offering firsthand experiences to these kinds of festivals and fairs. It's true, however, that I am getting offended at these blanket statements such as "half the people are high." No they're not. I have not seen anymore drug use at these "hippy festivals" (and since when was it okay to demonize "hippies"? this is not the 60s or 70s), than I have at county fairs, as you said. Insinuating that they drugged their children with LSD or something else other than what LE has said (Benedryl substance) is prejudiced against these groups of people and, frankly, I am not okay with it. These are kind of my people, you know, and to constantly have to keep coming forward and defending the festival circuit, or hippies in general, is getting tedious and going totally off topic on this board. (And it makes me look super defensive which, at this point, I am.)

It does not matter what festivals these women attended. It doesn't matter if they wouldn't allow sugar, if they wanted to live off the grid a little, or that they homeschooled. Any neglect and abuse they committed is on them and has nothing to do with their lifestyles. There are no studies that show that drug use at "hippie festivals" affects more than 50% of the crowd. There aren't any studies that show that hippies are more likely to abuse their children than non-hippies. There are millions of people out there who live this kind of lifestyle and do NOT abuse, neglect, drug, or kill their children. If someone does those things, it's because there's something not right (personality disorder, previous trauma, mental illness, etc.) inside of them, not because they put on some long skirts and danced to drum music at a peace rally on frequent occasions.

All IMO.

<modsnip> not everyone at these music and art festivals are using substances, but to say a large proportion aren't is disingenuous.

 

[goldenbear]

A report from the sheriff office within the last 30 minutes had no mention of the missing children. It was about an incident at a nearby college.

 

[gitana1]

How long was it that they were not seen? Sarah went to work. What did Jen do all day?

It is imteresting that neither was at home when CPS arrived. So they leave the kids homes alone. Even with the knowledge that Hannah escaped.

How does that work? LE did not say anything about finding shackles .

Early articles suggested that Jen was home with the kids when CPS came but did not answer the door. Shortly after cps left, Sarah arrived home and by the next morning the family was gone.

 

[Shiressleuth]

There have been no reports of Jen holding down a job and a lot of people assumed the reporter was in error in the statement of Jen coming home from work.

But if in fact Jen had just come home, it would explain why Devonte could have gone to the DeKalb house so many times over the short period of time before they called CPS. And that he was in fact trying to get ready to run away, knowing that he had a window of time when Jen was at work.

And if in fact Jen was not home when CPS came, it's possible that Devonte checked the front door after CPS left and saw the card. If true, he could very well have run away that day before his parents came home. Maybe with Hannah in tow.

Remember when Hannah ran to the DeKalb's and the whole family turned out looking for her? The family could have been looking for the kids that evening. And telling the kids they were going to further search for them by car would explain how they could get all the kids into the SUV around 3 am and drive off.

Who knows? It is all speculation. But it would help if media would clear up this initial report of Jen coming home after CPS had been there on Friday, March 23.

The neighbours said they all got in the car and left so I don't think any kids were missing. I also don't think they left at 3 a.m. but left as soon as SH got back from work, so early Friday evening I believe.

:cow:

 

[mtnlites]

<modsnip> not everyone at these music and art festivals are using substances, but to say a large proportion aren't is disingenuous.

You're right, I'm not. And others have also chimed in about the alleged drug use at these festivals and the prevalence.

LE has not offered any evidence to support that the children had anything other than Benedryl in their systems at the time of death.

 

[gitana1]

The drinking, Remember the pics of the kids and the comment about them being drunk? Where would the alcohol come from?

I have not seen anything re the pictures of the inappropriate interactions, but I do not get the idea it is about being a lesbian. It is about the children .

No. I haven't seen those pictures. People who interacted with them sad they weren't drinkers. It's not uncommon for parents to joke about their kids drinking or getting drunk (like pretending they were or are but they actually aren't). Weird but I've seen so many jokes like that.

But maybe if I saw the photos I would understand better.

My impression was there was an indication that the women drugged the kids in order to sexually abuse them. Earlier posts even inferred they purposefully kept them small even giving them puberty blockers and insinuated pedophillic motivations for such conduct despite not a shred of evidence any of that was done.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Pics without links have been removed. No link, no post.

The Amish and Christianity or lack thereof, have nothing to do with this case and have no place in this discussion.

For those who persist in discussing race, please review the following posts:

Here's the issue about posts that discuss racism in general.

This isn't our first rodeo when it comes to discussions about racism (and religion, and orientation ...).

Such discussions become highly charged, highly inflammatory, and totally unmanageable, and at times can result in threads getting shut down simply because we don't have a full-time staff to deal with it.

If MSM says someone said so-and-so was racist, you may discuss the comment that was contained in MSM. You may speculate on the comment within reason as it relates to this case and this case only. You may not digress into generalized rants about racism and thus derail the thread with your own agenda, beliefs, and accusations against any race, white/black/purple/green.

Do not detract from the thread by making it all about you and what you think about moderation or how the site should be run or what should or should not be allowed.

Websleuths is primarily a crime sleuthing forum. It is not a forum to resolve all the social injustices of the world. If Tricia wishes to change those parameters as it relates to this thread specifically, she will let you know.

If you have questions in that regard, address them to a Mod or Admin via PM.

We have no idea if these women did anything to keep their kids connected to their culture. We also don't have any evidence to suggest they withheld any connection to their past lives. We just don't know.

All we are trying to do is stop a discussion that will go nowhere and get everyone all upset. Every Single Time we try and have a discussion about race this is exactly what happens.

I don't think it's a secret what these women were trying to do. Whether it was with black kids, Hispanic kids, Guatemalan, kids it is obvious these women were trying to show they were great people to take on the challenge of raising all these older kids. In reality, these women were monsters because of the way they treated their kids.Their kids became the victims of their cruelty.

Other than the fact they chose African American kids rather than other minority children is really all that needs to be said about race. I hope I am not making things harder to understand. Discuss their motives in adopting older minority children. Hope this clears things up.

Tricia

 

[pinklilies]

The neighbours said they all got in the car and left so I don't think any kids were missing. I also don't think they left at 3 a.m. but left as soon as SH got back from work, so early Friday evening I believe.

:cow:

I don't think it's ever been said the neighbours actually saw any of the family get in the car.

http://www.king5.com/mobile/article...nto-family-prior-to-fatal-crash/283-532961241

After days of this, and other accusations of abuse, Dana DeKalb, called child services. She said a CPS worker came, the Harts refused to answer the door, and hours later, the family was gone.

"The next morning when we saw that the vehicle was gone, and then Sunday morning when it still wasn't there, we figured something was off," said Bruce DeKalb, Dana's husband.


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[keeleydoll]

You and I know there has been the "they're lesbians so they must've been sexual abusers" insinuation wafting through these threads on occasion. That's the sense I'm sort of getting maybe? (I hope not).

I think it's clear the women neglected and harshly abused their kids physically and emotionally. There is zero to indicate sexual abuse though and insinuations along that line evoke the outdated prejudices and theories that gay people are more prone to being sexual abusers or pedophiles. Which is flat untrue. And thus offensive.

Also, nothing to indicate they used drugs or even drank. The opposite. Being hippies and going to those kind of festivals or events doesn't mean a
person is a drug user. Plenty go and for most the worst they might do is smoke pot, which is far less dangerous than alcohol. But many others don't even do that.

I'd venture to guess there's more drug use at a county fair than at one of those festivals. There's definitely more crime and violence from drunks at a county fair than at a hippy fest!

Also, from the account of the friend who gave one child (Ciera?) food at a festival that the child was roughly reprimanded for, they seemed to keep the kids very closely under their watch.




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[LeighB]

It does not matter what festivals these women attended. It doesn't matter if they wouldn't allow sugar, if they wanted to live off the grid a little, or that they homeschooled. Any neglect and abuse they committed is on them and has nothing to do with their lifestyles.

Amen to that!

Here are some theories:

Disparity in treatment of child abuse allegations depending on race:
...
Certain moms have their kids taken away and go to jail for letting them sit literally 30 feet away during a job interview. But not nice ladies like Jen and Sarah Hart:

There is, IMO, definitely truth to the idea that white families get leeway that (especially poor) black families (especially headed by single women) don't get. There is another major factor, too, and that is that CPS is *not* consistent across the country, state, or even a county. You'll get cases where a bunch of people report someone but no one acts (like Aniya Day-Garrett, black), and cases where a rebellious teen's report that the family takes an alternative totally-legal mineral supplement gets 20 people plus a SWAT team taking kids away from cooperative, non-abusive parents, against caseworker recommendations, in the dark of night (Stanley family, white). What gets you removed in one place won't get you removed in another. It's very inconsistent.

The neighbours said they all got in the car and left so I don't think any kids were missing.

In the Dr. Oz interview, Dana Dekalb (the neighbor) said she did not see them leave, but that she woke up Saturday and saw that they were gone.

 

[gitana1]

It has nothing to do with them being lesbians. It has to do with highly inappropriate situations that they either posted themselves on social media (ie, teen boy dancing in his underwear) or things from their friends' social media (ie, a teen girl giving an adult acquaintance a massage that "melted them to a puddle" at a festival.)

Well, about the infamous underwear video- he was wearing underwear shorts. Covers as much or more as some bathing Suits. I wouldn't have a problem with it except I am against posting most anything about minors on a public social media site unless it is for educational purposes or the kids are entertainers or actors of some sort, because kids can't consent. The underwear really suggests nothing to me.

The lack of a private social media setting does, however. It goes to what rosenadderlake was saying about a lack of boundaries. It's insensitive, attention -seeking and quite odd for people who claimed that just a month prior to the video being publicly posted, the event occurred with Devonte and the officer which led to intense harassment and death threats, etc. And yet a month later they publicly post that same kid dancing in his underwear?

Belies their claims of fear and persecution.

As to the second thing with a massage. Eww. I agree. That would be super inappropriate and gross. I haven't seen it.

But it still doesnt suggest they were drugging their kids or sexually abusing them.

I don't think it's ever been said the neighbours actually saw any of the family get in the car.

http://www.king5.com/mobile/article...nto-family-prior-to-fatal-crash/283-532961241

After days of this, and other accusations of abuse, Dana DeKalb, called child services. She said a CPS worker came, the Harts refused to answer the door, and hours later, the family was gone.

"The next morning when we saw that the vehicle was gone, and then Sunday morning when it still wasn't there, we figured something was off," said Bruce DeKalb, Dana's husband.


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That's what I recall. But also that Sarah returned shortly after. I will try to find a link.

 

[Satchie]

You're right, I'm not. And others have also chimed in about the alleged drug use at these festivals and the prevalence.

LE has not offered any evidence to support that the children had anything other than Benedryl in their systems at the time of death.

Yep, and in the end, only the opinion of law enforcement is real and matters. All the other opinions are just wind blowing through the trees, so I'd suggest: you know what you know, don't bother with what anyone else thinks.

 

[keeleydoll]

4. At minimum those women exposed the kids to many people who were off their heads, and you can do a little searching and find those photos and posts.

MOO.

MOO but I’ve truly encountered more people acting like drugged out whack jobs at Walmart and walking our city market than I ever did at any music festival and the few I have seen at music festivals have been the most non threatening people I’ve ever encountered. People are off their rockers literally everywhere, the person in front of me in the checkout line this morning at 10am was slurring her words and smelled like a distillery.



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[LeighB]

I am actually still questioning this claim because we don't know where it came from. It's only been on one poster and, a few boards back, we had a discussion about not knowing who provided those numbers. They may not be official.

Yes, I brought it up a day or so ago. The flyer looks official, but the only place I've seen it was on the Kristin Rawls Twitter account. I don't know if these are official flyers or not.

The only reason I give it credence is that it jives with the DeKalbs saying that Hannah looked 7 (but was actually 16).

 

[gitana1]

Amen to that!



There is, IMO, definitely truth to the idea that white families get leeway that (especially poor) black families (especially headed by single women) don't get. There is another major factor, too, and that is that CPS is *not* consistent across the country, state, or even a county. You'll get cases where a bunch of people report someone but no one acts (like Aniya Day-Garrett, black), and cases where a rebellious teen's report that the family takes an alternative totally-legal mineral supplement gets 20 people plus a SWAT team taking kids away from cooperative, non-abusive parents, against caseworker recommendations, in the dark of night (Stanley family, white). What gets you removed in one place won't get you removed in another. It's very inconsistent.



In the Dr. Oz interview, Dana Dekalb (the neighbor) said she did not see them leave, but that she woke up Saturday and saw that they were gone.

Yes. That's logical. However the Stanley family absolutely did not get their kids taken away for giving them a supplement. There was a list of allegations of exteme abuse and neglect. Flogging them. Having them roam around outside in freezing weather and snow without shoes or coats. Not educating them at all. AND giving them a "supplement" that is acrually bleach and super dangerous.

But I do get your point. Unless we can show examples of disparate treatment within the same state there may be other reasons why something happens one place and not another with these in investigations.