CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #6

[Poppyflower]

I am going to be that person...

I have been very polite in offering firsthand experiences to these kinds of festivals and fairs. It's true, however, that I am getting offended at these blanket statements such as "half the people are high." No they're not. I have not seen anymore drug use at these "hippy festivals" (and since when was it okay to demonize "hippies"? this is not the 60s or 70s), than I have at county fairs, as you said. Insinuating that they drugged their children with LSD or something else other than what LE has said (Benedryl substance) is prejudiced against these groups of people and, frankly, I am not okay with it. These are kind of my people, you know, and to constantly have to keep coming forward and defending the festival circuit, or hippies in general, is getting tedious and going totally off topic on this board. (And it makes me look super defensive which, at this point, I am.)

It does not matter what festivals these women attended. It doesn't matter if they wouldn't allow sugar, if they wanted to live off the grid a little, or that they homeschooled. Any neglect and abuse they committed is on them and has nothing to do with their lifestyles. There are no studies that show that drug use at "hippie festivals" affects more than 50% of the crowd. There aren't any studies that show that hippies are more likely to abuse their children than non-hippies. There are millions of people out there who live this kind of lifestyle and do NOT abuse, neglect, drug, or kill their children. If someone does those things, it's because there's something not right (personality disorder, previous trauma, mental illness, etc.) inside of them, not because they put on some long skirts and danced to drum music at a peace rally on frequent occasions.

All IMO.

As someone who has attended *many* dead, phish, rainbow gatherings, drum circles, festivals, other shows...I am one of those people who rarely did drugs, I didn´t smoke pot or drink. I was there for the music and my people. There were many like me. It isn´t a requirement. I´ve gone with friends to hard rock shows and have witnessed more ¨scary drunks¨ than at hippy shows. This is just my experience but I traveled around the country for years, sold my wares and was immersed in my sub-culture. I hope posting about my experiences will help others to see that no matter what type of festival or all day show you go to- there are good and bad people there. Hard rock, metal, punk, rock, hippy, etc. It is just like any other group of people. Personally, I find alcohol to be way more scary.

 

[Starkville]

Just wondering about Jen’s demeanor in the last days/hours.

It’s said that sometimes a depressed and suicidal person will be happy shortly before they end their life. It’s because they have made peace with their decision to die, and their suffering is ending soon. They feel a paradoxical happiness.

I feel like knowing her demeanor would be a clue as to whether she had planned her cliff dive well before, or if it were more a “reaction”. I’m not articulating this well, and I hope I’m not offending anyone.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

A fantastic response, thankyou. I guess it was more on my behalf a whole heap of wishful hoping & praying that they have somehow survived. Were there any Rainbow Gatherings on in the area at the time???

I believe the annual Rainbow Gathering is always over the 4th of July. If there are smaller local gatherings in addition, I'm not aware of that.

 

[bears10]

I'd say in that community they are still current with social media. I don't know the Emerald Triangle but I know off-grid people and other, similar, communities. Even though they may not have running water, electricity in all the homes, etc. they still tend to have at least one central place in which members can access computers and/or the internet-especially if they are running any kind of business. It seems hypocritical but the idea is to live their daily lives without the stress of modern technology (the plant growing, the homestead chores, the educating, etc.) Most of them realize, however, that to conduct business they still need to be plugged in at least a little. There's a small off-grid community in my county. Like katy described, it's very hard to access-the place is locked up like Fort Knox. None of the homes have grid electricity (it's solar powered), running water (they have a well and compost toilets; most heat with wood stoves), or cell phones. However, the members run a very popular landscaping business and from their social media pages (updated every day) you'd have no clue they live like that.

I'm sorry! Such a long-winded way of saying that the community probably knows. People who live in that manner tend to be more tapped into what's going on than others realize-maybe more tapped in because it's in the best interest of their safety and isolation to know what's going on around them. When katy brought the idea up, it crossed my mind that the members would NOT tell Devonte about what happened because they wouldn't want him feeling guilty or responsible.

In my idealistic fantasy, the surviving kids are safe and alive there and the community is just keeping quiet about it. (On the other hand, my pessimistic attitude is that the mothers did go there and something either happened there or their friends learned about something that happened before the women arrived and they fled to avoid prosecution.) Naturally, there is no proof that they knew this community or was ever there. It's just a wild (but still possible) hope.

My only issue with the kids being safe and sound with off the grid friends, is why would JH and SH spare the lives of the two kids who have tried to run away/reach out to neighbors for help?

 

[Silver~Bell]

On the house, JH was receiving $1,900 a month for the adoptions from Texas. I posted the article yesterday. That would make a difference IMO.

That would just have taken seconds to go over the edge then. Is that only 1 second to go from 0-60 mph in 88 feet?

No, 88 ft/sec is at speed.

I forgot the adoption money!

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[MrsEmmaPeel]

My only issue with the kids being safe and sound with off the grid friends, is why would JH and SH spare the lives of the two kids who have tried to run away/reach out to neighbors for help?

I can understand that. If the two refused to go. If there was a stand off. They couldn't force them to join the family. However, I find it harder to understand Devonte standing up to them, given his role in the family. If the two ran off in fear for their lives and they're not with safe people in Mendocino, then how would they know it was safe to come out? Who would they approach? Big fear is a powerful motivator.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

The FBI posting for Hannah indicates that Hannah may have had a retainer for her front teeth:

[h=3]Remarks:[/h] Hannah Jean Hart is missing her two front teeth and may be wearing a retainer.


[h=3]Details:[/h] On March 26, 2018, at approximately 4:15 p.m., the Mendocino County Sheriff's Office and the California Highway Patrol responded to a fatal traffic accident off Highway 1, north of Westport, California. The bodies of a Washington couple and four of their six children were found in and around a vehicle that had crashed over a cliff and landed along the surf line. Two of the couple’s children are currently unaccounted for and their whereabouts remain unknown. The missing children could currently be traveling together and may have last been seen with their family members traveling in a brown 2003 Yukon XL SUV with tinted windows, which is the same vehicle that crashed.

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/hannah-jean-hart

I thought I remembered that they could not identify the body because they could not find any dental records from any dentist? How can you have a retainer if you have not been to the dentist?

 

[Silver~Bell]

My only issue with the kids being safe and sound with off the grid friends, is why would JH and SH spare the lives of the two kids who have tried to run away/reach out to neighbors for help?

Could they have taken the opportunity when Sarah was at work AND Jen was gone (remember Jen drove up right after CPS left, and later Sarah "tore" into the driveway) to have left??? And so they loaded up the others and took off without Hannah and Devonte???

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[LeighB]

The black men who have the power to assimilate into the larger dominant society (black studies academics have argued for years that black men have a better chance of assimilation and "ascension" into a better position because of misogyny and how the dynamics of racism are multiplied by misogyny when it comes to black women both in the black community and outside of it) will do so

This is interesting to me, since I just read a study published in the New York Times that showed that, when raised in wealthy households, black boys will stay wealthy far less often than white boys, even though black girls will stay wealthy just as often as white girls.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html

"Other studies show that boys, across races, are more sensitive than girls to disadvantages like growing up in poverty or facing discrimination. While black women also face negative effects of racism, black men often experience racial discrimination differently. As early as preschool, they are more likely to be disciplined in school. They are pulled over or detained and searched by police officers more often.

“It’s not just being black but being male that has been hyper-stereotyped in this negative way, in which we’ve made black men scary, intimidating, with a propensity toward violence,” said Noelle Hurd, a psychology professor at the University of Virginia."

 

[HeidiTX232]

But MAYBE Devonte and Heather staged a rebellion while up in those woods. Maybe they ran off because they saw an opportunity because they were in a very protected environment. Maybe the women figured out that they could not do anything about those 2 at that time, so they chose to leave and try and figure out what to do next.

Maybe they just gave up because they knew the 2 escapees were going to reveal the awful secrets?

Generally, I would have thought they wouldn’t have left without all the kids. But I could see something like this. If they didn’t find them in a few hours, they may have felt they wouldn’t. And as if whatever made them leave so suddenly wasn’t enough, now they have two who could already be at the police station. Or maybe they thought they’d die out there and there is no way to explain losing two kids (and who would believe them once the other stuff came to surface?).

But I do think the kids would have surfaced by now. And even off-the-grid people would have tried to contact the Harts or LE well before now. Who just keeps two kids?

 

[LeighB]

And they would have not travelled with gas cans.. They stink. Noxious fumes

I have no idea what happened, naturally, but just thought I'd throw out there that it's quite possible to travel with gas cans and not have them fill the car with noxious fumes. I've done it.

That amount of extra income would not be enough to do anything more than help with things like groceries and medical expenses. Sure, it would free up a little more disposable income but it wouldn't be enough on its own to enable those two to keep their houses as lavishly as they did. IOW, either one of them had a little trust fund or there were credit cards involved. I think it was probably the latter.

Again throwing personal experience into the mix of speculation: I have 6 children, and have had a house that cost the same as theirs is listed at (mid-300k), and if I had had 1900/mo in supplemental income, could easily have paid most of the mortgage with that and (combined with the SNAP/EBT they almost certainly qualified for) taken care of the rest of household expenses with a salary from retail.

Whether they did, I have no idea.

 

[Silver~Bell]

I thought I remembered that they could not identify the body because they could not find any dental records from any dentist? How can you have a retainer if you have not been to the dentist?

You can buy retainers, partials, even dentures online!

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[MrsEmmaPeel]

What’s the chances of each individual persons obituary on this site saying the same thing? Its as though the names & dates are dropped in. There are no details on the services for anyone...not of only just the Harts.

From my experience doing tons and tons of genealogy, a funeral home may issue a statement made of facts from the internet or Ancestry.com if no other obituary is offered. They also might do this if they had performed a cremation, unless family had requested no information be posted. I've encountered that in my own family when someone was cremated after a crime. It's just part of the online practice of funeral homes. It's possible that the funeral home did this as usual with no grasp of how much scrutiny there is on the family.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Who just keeps two kids?

If anyone does, it's people off the grid in the Emerald Triangle. It is a different world as others here have attested.

 

[HeidiTX232]

To adopt 3 older children and then turn around and adopt 3 more 3 years later...That was a lot happening in a short amount of time. I am still surprised that they were approved for 3 more. I have friends who have been waiting on the adoption list for years.

Generally, it is easier to foster or adopt another child once you’ve “successfully” done so. For example, if I called my agency today and said we wanted another child, I’d likely get one really quickly even though we already have a handful of kids, some with “issues.” We have proved our ability to handle children with histories so would be more desirable.

Sometimes this is a huge issue. Caseworkers will go against what they believe is best for a child/set because of it. For example, we were chosen for a child who it was determined would be best with no other children. But we had kids! But they needed someone very experienced who could deal with certain behaviors most people wouldn’t dream of considering. But we had kids (and not just one or two!). Additionally, the fact that we HAD such experience (ongoing) may should not have been in our favor either. Having one or two kids with extreme needs may mean that an additional child should NOT have those particular needs though willingness and experience would be helpful.

(Eta: we did not accept placement of the above child. She has not yet gotten a home, unfortunately.)

I’m not sure how the Harts got the second set after a criminal child abuse conviction (and most people who abuse kids don’t have criminal convictions even if they end up losing their children over it). But I’m positive that having experience as adoptive parents to kids with histories helped. They were considered “successful.”

 

[rosemadderlake]

My only issue with the kids being safe and sound with off the grid friends, is why would JH and SH spare the lives of the two kids who have tried to run away/reach out to neighbors for help?

Because these two would book it, run for help at any point along the way, uncontrollable, two minds as one Devonte and Hannah are even more unpredictable? I'm still wondering about Naselle Wa. Something happened between CPS and that 3am text. Also, J&S were well connected to their community for decades. There is more than one tablet or phone that is in the ocean...

Thoughts run from bury the bodies elsewhere, kids took off from their home, to drop two kids under pretense of Sarah needs to go to the doctor, we'll be back... And then radio silence.

As they drove to think, make a plan, Jen might not have had it in her to kill Devonte if she was really connected to him? Maybe he and Hannah were really close, too. Devonte was freaking out trying to protect her?

Just some thoughts...

 

[HeidiTX232]

Tell your friends to try Texas - they pay parents to adopt.

:cow:

Grrrr

Every state offers a subsidy for children considered special needs. Some states offer a subsidy for all kids adopted through the state. Subsidy may include a monetary amount monthly, medical, college, case management services, extra help for therapy/camp/etc.

It is complex, but people aren’t getting rich adopting kids. Sure, rarely, someone doesn’t provide for the children so it isn’t costing tthem. But it’s rare. Most of us are using every dime plus some to provide every opportunity for our children.

 

[Breezie]

https://people.com/crime/utah-parents-murder-suicide-mom-thought-terminal-cancer/

What happened with the Hart’s seemed like such a rare event, yet today there is a sad article about a mom who thought she had cancer and did not want to be separated from her family so she convinced her husband to go along with her plan.

Jen went downhill after the move to Woodland. This family had just made an even bigger move from Europe to the US when the mom started researching cancer. There are a few other similarities as well.

 

[HeidiTX232]

(combined with the SNAP/EBT they almost certainly qualified for)

I am positive they didn’t qualify for welfare benefits. At $53k, they would barely qualify for Earned Income Credit so even there wouldn’t have gotten food stamps. Then add the adoption subsidy. Definitely wouldn’t qualify.

(Adoption subsidy is not taxed but is considered in regards to welfare benefits, buying houses, etc).

 

[Breamworthy]

My only issue with the kids being safe and sound with off the grid friends, is why would JH and SH spare the lives of the two kids who have tried to run away/reach out to neighbors for help?

I think this is possible if the decision to end everything hadn't been made yet.

They might need to get rid of the two kids who were drawing attention and who were less likely to cooperate with a cover up in CPS interviews. if they hadn't yet reached a full state of panic or mental break, the first thought would not be to murder these children, but to stash them somewhere. After doing this, perhaps the other children became less compliant, or reality set in in some other way on the drive home and they realIzed there was no way to make the plan work.