ACTIVE SEARCH CA - Hannah, 16, Devonte, 15, & Sierra Hart, 12, Mendocino County, 26 Mar 2018 #4

[Satchie]

It's hard to judge what is overly thin, since so many people in the US are now so overweight. A healthy BMI, at the low end of the scale, does result in a person looking thin.

 

[DatelineFan]

How sad that these poor kids suffered and people just want to be right about how badly they suffered.

I hope they are able to find and lay all 6 to rest together. [emoji173]️ And I hope le is able to find some answers that will help families in the future. Especially children who need adults to stand up and be their voices for them. Maybe some day adults will no longer hurt kids. One can hope...

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[2Hope4]

I know we are looking for the why, but I don't think we'll ever have an answer. Maybe all kids were in that vehicle, and got thrown into the ocean.

I understand looking at the past to understand the present. Yet in this case, with no one to prosecute, I'm not sure what it will accomplish.

Some of the children said they were abused. They are now dead, so I have to believe their precious voices. Will that help find the missing children? Does the photos, past stories from the Moms, etc, helps us find the missing? I don't think it will.

IF the missing children were alive, it would seem they would have surfaced by now. If they had run away, surely their supplies would be out by now, and they would have to seek shelter somewhere. Yet there's no evidence of that. None of them have found an adult to tell what happened, or ask for help, etc. On the flip side, they did ask for help in the past, and sadly it appears they didn't get what they needed. Would they give up asking at this point? Or continue until someone, anyone listen and help? Would they seek out a police officer or fireman for help? I don't know. But I don't think they would be surviving the woods, or wherever this length of time without resources. From what we know, they didn't have money. I don't know if they ever had their own money.

We don't even know if they had any disabilities. Only know what the Moms told others. But I don't think I've seen a professional mention them having any difficulties. Maybe they never saw a doctor, dentist, etc. But there was glasses so at least, maybe, an eye doctor? Maybe they are dollar store reading glasses. I don't know.

Why are police silent on that aspect? Can't they say the kids were treated throughout their lives, etc, without it being a privacy issue? Especially if that knowledge would help find them. Sadly I don't know many people really knew them. A scattered neighbor here or there and mentioned things they were told, or witnessed, but has anyone said they had a speech disorder, learning disorder, etc? I don't think I've read of any by anyone but the Moms, mainly Jen's writings.

Precious kids that should be thinking of their future, instead, rejoicing their abuse has ended. Such a sad case.

 

[bunnykins]

I was wondering about that picture of Abigail with the greenhouse. Jen must have made her open the cover in such a way as to throw snow all over herself to stage the picture. It struck me as a bit odd, not to mention cold. On the other hand, I don't think those flowers wouldn't survive in that greenhouse if it was all that cold.

I live in the Northwest, it was an unusual late snowstorm. Daffodils are some of the earliest spring blooms around here so I can absolutely believe that they survived the snowstorm in the green house. The snow could have fallen on Abigail when she bumped the greenhouse or when the chicken flapped it wings to get up on her shoulder and caused the snow to fall. I absolutely believe these children were abused, exploited, and food was withheld, but I don't get seeing evidence in every little picture.

 

[bluesneakers]

I have to disagree with you about them ever being good parents. It sounds like reports of abuse started pretty quickly after the first 3 were adopted. I do agree about Sarah crying. And the ring. I remove jewelry at amusement parks. And my eyes are often red because I have allergies.

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They tried hard to look like good parents.

 

[mtnlites]

I live in the Northwest, it was an unusual late snowstorm. Daffodils are some of the earliest spring blooms around here so I can absolutely believe that they survived the snowstorm in the green house. The snow could have fallen on Abigail when she bumped the greenhouse or when the chicken flapped it wings to get up on her shoulder and caused the snow to fall. I absolutely believe these children were abused, exploited, and food was withheld, but I don't get seeing evidence in every little picture.

I guess I don't get that either. I'm really struggling with that aspect, of scrutinizing every image and reading into it.

The scary thing, to me, is that the pictures and anecdotes could ALL be perfectly innocent and "real", and yet the parents also be abusive. Both truths could exist simultaneously. Child abuse and the relationship between abuser and abusee are complicated. The picture of the kids with the waffles, for example. Some people are commenting and saying, "I bet they didn't even get to eat those waffles!" The thing is, they probably DID eat those waffles. And they probably enjoyed them. And those smiles in the pictures? They could very well be real. And they probably really loved their mothers. But they were probably still afraid of them and were most likely abused. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. Abuse is complicated, which is why it's often so hard for people to leave. It is possible to have "good" times with your abuser, and that just makes the situation even scarier. If things were bad 24/7 then it would be easy to hate them, but abusers can flip the switch and be loving and caring, too. My mother was abusive; I grew up in a home with a narcissist with borderline personality disorder. I was terrified of her. Almost 40 years later and I am still working through that trauma. But gosh, as traumatic as my childhood was and as awful of a mother she could be, she could also be the most wonderful mother in the world and I all but worshipped her because when she was "good", she was wonderful. If you were to look at my family pictures, you'd see a smiling little girl doing all kinds of fun things. The smiles weren't faked, either. She didn't force me to grin-I smiled because, at that moment, I was genuinely enjoying myself and because I loved her. And then, 20 minutes after the photo was taken, she might hit me or ridicule me or any number of the other things that she enjoyed doing.

These poor children had terrible deaths. They most likely had some terrible things happen to them, both before and after they were adopted. I sincerely hope that they did have true moments of joy in their short lives.

 

[emma.laurens]

I know we are looking for the why, but I don't think we'll ever have an answer. Maybe all kids were in that vehicle, and got thrown into the ocean.

I understand looking at the past to understand the present. Yet in this case, with no one to prosecute, I'm not sure what it will accomplish.

Some of the children said they were abused. They are now dead, so I have to believe their precious voices. Will that help find the missing children? Does the photos, past stories from the Moms, etc, helps us find the missing? I don't think it will.

IF the missing children were alive, it would seem they would have surfaced by now. If they had run away, surely their supplies would be out by now, and they would have to seek shelter somewhere. Yet there's no evidence of that. None of them have found an adult to tell what happened, or ask for help, etc. On the flip side, they did ask for help in the past, and sadly it appears they didn't get what they needed. Would they give up asking at this point? Or continue until someone, anyone listen and help? Would they seek out a police officer or fireman for help? I don't know. But I don't think they would be surviving the woods, or wherever this length of time without resources. From what we know, they didn't have money. I don't know if they ever had their own money.

We don't even know if they had any disabilities. Only know what the Moms told others. But I don't think I've seen a professional mention them having any difficulties. Maybe they never saw a doctor, dentist, etc. But there was glasses so at least, maybe, an eye doctor? Maybe they are dollar store reading glasses. I don't know.

Why are police silent on that aspect? Can't they say the kids were treated throughout their lives, etc, without it being a privacy issue? Especially if that knowledge would help find them. Sadly I don't know many people really knew them. A scattered neighbor here or there and mentioned things they were told, or witnessed, but has anyone said they had a speech disorder, learning disorder, etc? I don't think I've read of any by anyone but the Moms, mainly Jen's writings.

Precious kids that should be thinking of their future, instead, rejoicing their abuse has ended. Such a sad case.

I think part of it is trying to figure out "why" and "what if" for these children. But, as you said, there's not much we can assess at this point, beyond the evidence we have. And most of the discussion has turned towards identifying red flags that were overlooked in their lives, because there's other kids out there going through this.

I'm fairly sure that's what the debates re: "were they starved or not"/"was physical abuse covered up" are really about. Basically: If you see a child with these symptoms/behaviors, should you be worried enough to call authorities?; Or will calling the authorities just make it worse?

The discussion is still very much about these kids and the broken system and communities that let them down. Whatever scrutiny we put on their actions, though, this isn't about Jen and Sarah anymore. Mtnlites' post above says that much better than I can.

That said, I hope evidence is added to this thread as it is released. The kids' biological families are still out there, and I suspect there will be a need for closure that the investigation may not answer fully.

 

[Smoneywcbs]

I’ve been following this thread for a long time, now. I, like most, have been looking at the pictures with scrutiny and thinking of these women as monsters.

Tonight, however, I thought to myself “what would the media have said about my husband and I two years ago had we driven off a cliff with our 3 children?” Even if by accident?

Believe it or not, I drove off a 45 foot embankment when I was 21. A car had been following to closely and in reaction I accelerated and hit gravel and when trying to turn away I went directly off. So there’s that.

I also have a son, in college now, who accused us of everything under the sun from age 15-18. It started when we wouldn’t let him stay the night at a girls home (we had no idea he was gay at age 15 so of course we said no!) Next thing we know he disappears for a weekend. He told the girls family his dad threw him against walls and we locked him in the basement and we were starving him. While there, he contacted every family member he could out of our state to tell of his “abusive” living conditions. 2 days later after calling the police we were able to get him back home where he apologized and said he told everyone the truth but he didn’t really.

3 months later after he started coming home at 3 am on school nights, we bought drug tests. We had people tell us his Snapchat was full of drug and alcohol pictures. His dad sat him in the kitchen and forced him to sit in a chair until he would take the test. He refused, of course and when my husband would try to force him to sit down he went ballistic. He had a small bruise on his wrist from my husband trying to restrain him from knocking the table over.

The next day he went to his counselor, showed her the bruise, told her his dad was throwing him on the ground, etc. We were then investigated and my son recanted and told the truth.

He then disappeared when he turned 18 but still a senior in HS. Lived for a month with a friends family. We had no idea where but couldn’t do anything. Then I got a strange fb request and phone call. The mother in the family called me to tell me they had kicked him out. This lady said “I’m sure at this point everything that came out of your son’s mouth was a lie but he was good, took me a month to figure it out!” Turns our he told the same stories of abuse and starvation but also that we’d “kicked him out because he was gay!” All lies!

Just saying my son is tall and very thin. Crazy metabolism. Also knew what type of things to complain about to get his way or people to feel sorry for him when really he just didn’t like what dinner we were having and didn’t want to mind curfew.

Just thought I’d share. All family knows the truth and have been played by him as well. No one really trusts 100% of what comes out of his mouth now.

But what if. What if 2 years ago the media pulled up reports of police, CPS, friends families telling what he told them!??? We’d look like monsters. Monsters!

Also, my younger son started saying “you are starving me” etc mimicking his older brother for a few months after that when we wouldn’t let him eat chips instead of what was on the table. Behavior can be learned and copied by siblings.

Not saying all this isn’t accurate with the Hart family. Just giving you all something to ponder.


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[human]

I noticed the waffles had no syrup on them, just raw blueberries. But the other neighbor, the handyman one, didn't he say one of the kids offered an ice- pop? So I'm also unsure about the sugar ban. But the anti-sugar stance fits the crunchy granola facade they had going.

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I despise syrup and only use fruit on waffles. Ice pops can be made out of blendered fruit.

 

[DatelineFan]

My eating disorder care team always deferred to my doctor and dietitian with anything involving my weight and nutrition.

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[mtnlites]

I’ve been following this thread for a long time, now. I, like most, have been looking at the pictures with scrutiny and thinking of these women as monsters.

Tonight, however, I thought to myself “what would the media have said about my husband and I two years ago had we driven off a cliff with our 3 children?” Even if by accident?

Believe it or not, I drove off a 45 foot embankment when I was 21. A car had been following to closely and in reaction I accelerated and hit gravel and when trying to turn away I went directly off. So there’s that.

I also have a son, in college now, who accused us of everything under the sun from age 15-18. It started when we wouldn’t let him stay the night at a girls home (we had no idea he was gay at age 15 so of course we said no!) Next thing we know he disappears for a weekend. He told the girls family his dad threw him against walls and we locked him in the basement and we were starving him. While there, he contacted every family member he could out of our state to tell of his “abusive” living conditions. 2 days later after calling the police we were able to get him back home where he apologized and said he told everyone the truth but he didn’t really.

3 months later after he started coming home at 3 am on school nights, we bought drug tests. We had people tell us his Snapchat was full of drug and alcohol pictures. His dad sat him in the kitchen and forced him to sit in a chair until he would take the test. He refused, of course and when my husband would try to force him to sit down he went ballistic. He had a small bruise on his wrist from my husband trying to restrain him from knocking the table over.

The next day he went to his counselor, showed her the bruise, told her his dad was throwing him on the ground, etc. We were then investigated and my son recanted and told the truth.

He then disappeared when he turned 18 but still a senior in HS. Lived for a month with a friends family. We had no idea where but couldn’t do anything. Then I got a strange fb request and phone call. The mother in the family called me to tell me they had kicked him out. This lady said “I’m sure at this point everything that came out of your son’s mouth was a lie but he was good, took me a month to figure it out!” Turns our he told the same stories of abuse and starvation but also that we’d “kicked him out because he was gay!” All lies!

Just saying my son is tall and very thin. Crazy metabolism. Also knew what type of things to complain about to get his way or people to feel sorry for him when really he just didn’t like what dinner we were having and didn’t want to mind curfew.

Just thought I’d share. All family knows the truth and have been played by him as well. No one really trusts 100% of what comes out of his mouth now.

But what if. What if 2 years ago the media pulled up reports of police, CPS, friends families telling what he told them!??? We’d look like monsters. Monsters!

Also, my younger son started saying “you are starving me” etc mimicking his older brother for a few months after that when we wouldn’t let him eat chips instead of what was on the table. Behavior can be learned and copied by siblings.

Not saying all this isn’t accurate with the Hart family. Just giving you all something to ponder.


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I think you bring up some valid points. Thank you for sharing your story, too.

I have played devil's advocate with myself and wondered how I would feel if they did a pressor tomorrow and announced that the crash truly was an accident. They're still sorting out everything that happened, which is why I have been leery about forming any solid opinions.

 

[DatelineFan]

I’ve been following this thread for a long time, now. I, like most, have been looking at the pictures with scrutiny and thinking of these women as monsters.

Tonight, however, I thought to myself “what would the media have said about my husband and I two years ago had we driven off a cliff with our 3 children?” Even if by accident?

Believe it or not, I drove off a 45 foot embankment when I was 21. A car had been following to closely and in reaction I accelerated and hit gravel and when trying to turn away I went directly off. So there’s that.

I also have a son, in college now, who accused us of everything under the sun from age 15-18. It started when we wouldn’t let him stay the night at a girls home (we had no idea he was gay at age 15 so of course we said no!) Next thing we know he disappears for a weekend. He told the girls family his dad threw him against walls and we locked him in the basement and we were starving him. While there, he contacted every family member he could out of our state to tell of his “abusive” living conditions. 2 days later after calling the police we were able to get him back home where he apologized and said he told everyone the truth but he didn’t really.

3 months later after he started coming home at 3 am on school nights, we bought drug tests. We had people tell us his Snapchat was full of drug and alcohol pictures. His dad sat him in the kitchen and forced him to sit in a chair until he would take the test. He refused, of course and when my husband would try to force him to sit down he went ballistic. He had a small bruise on his wrist from my husband trying to restrain him from knocking the table over.

The next day he went to his counselor, showed her the bruise, told her his dad was throwing him on the ground, etc. We were then investigated and my son recanted and told the truth.

He then disappeared when he turned 18 but still a senior in HS. Lived for a month with a friends family. We had no idea where but couldn’t do anything. Then I got a strange fb request and phone call. The mother in the family called me to tell me they had kicked him out. This lady said “I’m sure at this point everything that came out of your son’s mouth was a lie but he was good, took me a month to figure it out!” Turns our he told the same stories of abuse and starvation but also that we’d “kicked him out because he was gay!” All lies!

Just saying my son is tall and very thin. Crazy metabolism. Also knew what type of things to complain about to get his way or people to feel sorry for him when really he just didn’t like what dinner we were having and didn’t want to mind curfew.

Just thought I’d share. All family knows the truth and have been played by him as well. No one really trusts 100% of what comes out of his mouth now.

But what if. What if 2 years ago the media pulled up reports of police, CPS, friends families telling what he told them!??? We’d look like monsters. Monsters!

Also, my younger son started saying “you are starving me” etc mimicking his older brother for a few months after that when we wouldn’t let him eat chips instead of what was on the table. Behavior can be learned and copied by siblings.

Not saying all this isn’t accurate with the Hart family. Just giving you all something to ponder.


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They don't have family around to know the truth, because they have pushed everyone away so they can stay isolated.

I think it's clear what had been going on for more than a decade here. And moving states as soon as cps was on to them.

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[bluesneakers]

I think you bring up some valid points. Thank you for sharing your story, too.

I have played devil's advocate with myself and wondered how I would feel if they did a pressor tomorrow and announced that the crash truly was an accident. They're still sorting out everything that happened, which is why I have been leery about forming any solid opinions.

But I doubt many of us have pleaded guilty to domestic violence. Sarah admitted abusing one of her children.

 

[mtnlites]

But I doubt many of us have pleaded guilty to domestic violence. Sarah admitted abusing one of her children.

I believe the children were abused. I merely wondered, for my own thought process, how I would feel if LE suddenly changed their tune about the accident. A lot of my feelings are tied into the scenario that the crash was intentional. I was merely playing devil's advocate with myself.

 

[bluesneakers]

They don't have family around to know the truth, because they have pushed everyone away so they can stay isolated.

I think it's clear what had been going on for more than a decade here. And moving states as soon as cps was on to them.

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Yes, the only people coming forward aren't people who were involved in their regular, daily lives.

It's heartbreaking to see not a single friend of any of the children. They weren't allowed to have their own friends or interests.

I wonder even music, books, clothes.. ? Did their mothers see them as individuals?

 

[human]

I get we're angry.
However
Can we take care not to make sweeping generalizations?
Stupid politics, silly lifestyle, most be vegan, didn't listen to Hendrix etc.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone or single anyone out but geez it's getting kinda crazy up in here. I'm just waiting for "satanic ritual" to be uttered.


(although maybe that's on account of I ran into a super crazy conspiracy theory blog earlier that I'm not even going to say what the take on it there was holy business crazy!)


And I don't "question" the children's accounts or perceptions regarding the starving, but I do wonder about the actual reality of it, having worked with adopted children with RAD and eating disorders--like I've mentioned previously, I've worked with kids who can gorge an entire days worth of food in ten minutes then ten minutes later very convincingly tell someone they're starving. And they may have thought they were--obviously something was not connecting in the satiation area.

I'm not saying these kids were or were not starved, but I'm getting pretty darn tired of the berating posts that seem aimed at anyone who discusses other possibilities.

I think we have to look at patterns. They would have the pattern of going to people and begging for food. Has this happened elsewhere?

The principal in MN did not mention that the kids had food issues. The teacher would,notice.

 

[bluesneakers]

I believe the children were abused. I merely wondered, for my own thought process, how I would feel if LE suddenly changed their tune about the accident. A lot of my feelings are tied into the scenario that the crash was intentional. I was merely playing devil's advocate with myself.

Got it.

I was just adding on and continuing your thought (and the previous post). Not trying to contradict.

 

[DatelineFan]

I think we have to look at patterns. They would have the pattern of going to people and begging for food. Has this happened elsewhere?

The principal in MN did not mention that the kids had food issues. The teacher would,notice.

Great point!

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[Smoneywcbs]

They don't have family around to know the truth, because they have pushed everyone away so they can stay isolated.

I think it's clear what had been going on for more than a decade here. And moving states as soon as cps was on to them.

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And just something else to ponder, I live on the west side of Washington. I used to live across the river from Portland. These women, IMO, moved to be in more of a liberal area which supported how they raised their children and did not judge their family unit. Their latest move (from OR to WA) was only around 45 min distance. Though across state lines, not a huge jump if they were trying to truly disappear.


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[human]

I currently live in the upper Midwest, not all that terribly far from either where J&S grew up or where they all lived until the move west. We are a different breed around here. I'll take the trash out in shorts when it's -20. When it gets above 30 I stop wearing a coat, a hoodie and a beanie, or a long sleeve with layers will suffice. Obviously if out for extended periods of time the gear increases a bit...

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When it gets 30 degrees in MN in January’ , it is time to get out the shorts. Really. And there are warm snow days with the sun shining