CA CA - Hannah, 16, Devonte, 15, & Sierra Hart, 12, Mendocino County, 26 March 2018 #1

[KaaBoom]

When I was grounded as a young girl it meant I couldn’t go outside and play, ride a bike, do anything with my friends, watch TV, play my stereo. The way I see it these kids in this family were basically always grounded. Neighbors never saw them outside playing, no TV in the house, no outside friendships so basically I think being grounded only meant no food. [emoji853]

That was the impression I got. For them grounding meant they couldn't leave their bed. Not leaving the house was just normal.

 

[Zelda1010]

That has never occurred to me.
Maybe they went over the edge with a car full of dead bodies.
Maybe ONE of them went over the edge with a car full of dead bodies.

The stuff of nightmares, for sure. Deceased kids in the back did occur to me when a pickup was erroneously discussed and the thought of kids riding in the bed...I was relieved to know it was a Yukon.

But only one living soul in the vehicle had not occurred to me. If that were the case, that would explain why it would be speculation, now, to say who was driving, that is - in conscious control of the vehicle's speed and trajectory, even if they are sure who was belted into the driver's seat. Moo

 

[Whiteorchids]

It does seem possible at this point. Maybe one of the moms was cheating or planning to leave as well and that's when the other mom snapped. You never know in this situation my fear is whatever happened won't be known because everyone involved is presumed dead. The kids deserve justice and proper burials.

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Anything is possible but I believe CPS coming around got the women very upset, maybe one was blaming the other and vice versa, along with being angry at the kids got the ball rolling. Perhaps it started as a let’s get out of here go for a drive and cool off but arguing and blaming continued on the road and got out of control so the driver decided to pull over stopped, while engine running something was said that enraged her and in the heat of the moment she accelerated and down they went. Maybe this wasn’t planned at all but last minute decision done out of anger.

 

[margarita25]

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[gcharlie]

Anyone else wonder if perhaps the childrens' bodies have not been properly identified?

 

[Beth11311]

Something that just came to mind, and I could be SO off, but the seatbelts vs non-seatbelts keeps bothering me. In the interest of just spitballing ideas, while I don’t think this is very probable or likely, I wonder if by any small chance they hoped they (the two women) might survive the crash, while the kids were killed. It could have solved their issues in many ways (tragic accident claims the lives of their sweet children, they somehow managed to survive) - news etc would paint them in the light of grieving mothers who had lost their SIX precious children. There would no longer be any children to report on what home life was like to CPS and they could claim it was a terrible, tragic accident. Again I don’t think this is what happened...but wanted to throw it in the mix.


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[LonelyChild]

Anyone else wonder if perhaps the childrens' bodies have not been properly identified?

I've thought of this too. Maybe they can run DNA test to determine who's who if that's the case. I especially think the little girl found was misidentified.

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[K_Z]

The stuff of nightmares, for sure. Deceased kids in the back did occur to me when a pickup was erroneously discussed and the thought of kids riding in the bed...I was relieved to know it was a Yukon.

But only one living soul in the vehicle had not occurred to me. If that were the case, that would explain why it would be speculation, now, to say who was driving, that is - in conscious control of the vehicle's speed and trajectory, even if they are sure who was belted into the driver's seat. Moo

We have to wait for the autopsy reports on all the recovered victims. If those other than the driver died from means other than blunt force crash injuries, I think it will be revealed. However, that doesn't exclude the possibility that blunt force head injuries may have preceded the crash-- a horrific crash could be used to add so many injuries that head trauma could be masked.

That said, I think all 5 of the recovered victims were alive when they went over the cliff. Whether any/all but the driver were awake is another story, as is whether it was dark outside. I feel pretty certain the driver was awake and did this intentionally. It may not have been planned more than moments in advance, but it was intentional, IMO. Or it could have been a plan that developed over the 10+ hour drive, either by the driver alone, or with the other mom, or even persuading/ convincing the teens that this was the only solution. The kids were already, IMO, experiencing a childhood that produced similarities to Stockholm Syndrome. It's not far fetched to imagine that they could be convinced that the only solution was to "leave" this horrible life for "something better". And like everything else they did, they did this as a group thing, "together", as a family.

I will also be interested to find out the lab and toxicology reports of the driver, and the other passengers. The kids could have been given something to make them sleep, or be more compliant.

 

[castilloisno1]

first post...the birthday video almost seems like an audition for a reality show about this family

 

[flourish]

first post...the birthday video almost seems like an audition for a reality show about this family

: welcome:

Welcome!

 

[gcharlie]

I've considered that, which is why I posted a few days ago about waiting for the autopsy results.

Tox screens will show if any of the victims had been drugged. Xrays will show if bones were broken during the accident or well prior- which might be an indication of prior abuse. If victims were dead before the accident, there would be no bruising, as the body stopped circulating blood. A good pathologist will know what to look for.

I am not comfortable with none of the kids wearing seat belts and keep asking myself why and how that would have happened. Those kids were well past the age that seat belts would have been an automatic part of a car ride. It just does not make sense.

Unless those kids had just piled into the car and did not even have a chance to get settled when one of the "moms" floored the gas.

 

[HearMeRoar]

I was curious so I did a little search and here’s what I found.

“The amount of aid a family receives for a foster care adoption will depend upon the adoptee’s personal needs and age; it includes a cash grant, Medicaid coverage to age 18, and reimbursements for certain expenses. The adoption subsidy payments may not exceed the rate the child would have received if the child had remained in foster care, a base rate that is currently $445 a month. The California adoption subsidy is negotiated between the adoptive family and the county with legal custody of the child, so it cannot be estimated before the child is actually placed for adoption with the family.”

http://www.fcadoptions.org/the-process/fos-adopt.php/foster-care-adoption-costs.php




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FYI Monthly stipends not only vary from state to state, but can also vary with foster care providers in the same city/ county. Monthly stipends here in PA are twice what you quoted Reba.

Some adoptive families have the expectation that the child will be out of the home when he/she turns 18 BECAUSE the monthly stipend ends. The 19 year old, Markis, remained in the home. Often if there is a disability present, parents can apply for SSI (disability income) when the stipend ends so there's no gap in monthly income. If this is the case, the 18 yr old can designate a payee to manage her/his check. Another question I wonder about is "did Markis know what his options were." If there is a disability -- often there are multiple services in the home "a team" that will provide direction to the kid and family prior to 18 for life skills, halfway houses, job searching etc. With the growing relocations and home schooling, my best guess is that parents did not want services in the home. (Providers are mandated reporters and can and will file childline reports if there is any suspicion or evidence of abuse or neglect.) There are many services available to these kids/ and family. AND these services are provided in the home (at the convenience of the family.) Post-adoptive services e.g., family therapy, mentors, individual therapy, mobile therapy, evaluations etc etc., are all provided for under Medicaid which the kids receive. If your goal is help the child (children) become successful -- you would take advantage of the many services available.

When reports of child abuse are filed, it is often fairly easy to identify physical abuse. You don't see many cases of emotional abuse that become substantiated because it's just about impossible to "prove." Kids are resilient. They can get over bruises and broken bones, broken teeth can be fixed, but far different with the trauma of emotional abuse. That can take years or a lifetime.

 

[bluesneakers]

I've considered that, which is why I posted a few days ago about waiting for the autopsy results.

Tox screens will show if any of the victims had been drugged. Xrays will show if bones were broken during the accident or well prior- which might be an indication of prior abuse. If victims were dead before the accident, there would be no bruising, as the body stopped circulating blood. A good pathologist will know what to look for.

I am not comfortable with none of the kids wearing seat belts and keep asking myself why and how that would have happened. Those kids were well past the age that seat belts would have been an automatic part of a car ride. It just does not make sense.

Unless those kids had just piled into the car and did not even have a chance to get settled when one of the "moms" floored the gas.

That's the only thing I can come up with. Maybe they stopped, got out to stretch their legs and look at the view, then as soon as they got in the car, before they had a chance to buckle up, one of the moms stepped on the gas.

Terrifying to think about and reminds me so much of Diane Schuler.

 

[msphilosopher]

Something that just came to mind, and I could be SO off, but the seatbelts vs non-seatbelts keeps bothering me. In the interest of just spitballing ideas, while I don’t think this is very probable or likely, I wonder if by any small chance they hoped they (the two women) might survive the crash, while the kids were killed. It could have solved their issues in many ways (tragic accident claims the lives of their sweet children, they somehow managed to survive) - news etc would paint them in the light of grieving mothers who had lost their SIX precious children. There would no longer be any children to report on what home life was like to CPS and they could claim it was a terrible, tragic accident. Again I don’t think this is what happened...but wanted to throw it in the mix.


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I had the opposite thought. Still morbid, but I thought it was possible they were strapped in because they were prepared to die while the kids where not, so they unbuckled in attempt to climb out windows or try escape the crash / during the crash

So morbid and so awful to think about.

 

[gcharlie]

https://twitter.com/PatDooris/status/980857634470285312

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I've considered that, which is why I posted a few days ago about waiting for the autopsy results.

Tox screens will show if any of the victims had been drugged. Xrays will show if bones were broken during the accident or well prior- which might be an indication of prior abuse. If victims were dead before the accident, there would be no bruising, as the body stopped circulating blood. A good pathologist will know what to look for.

I am not comfortable with none of the kids wearing seat belts and keep asking myself why and how that would have happened. Those kids were well past the age that seat belts would have been an automatic part of a car ride. It just does not make sense.

Unless those kids had just piled into the car and did not even have a chance to get settled when one of the "moms" floored the gas.

I see that also as very curious.

If there were two adults and seatbelts, and the rest of the children weren't, that just does not make sense to me at all.

I'm trying to think of a scenario where every single one of the children would not be belted in when both adults were.

I just can't think of one scenario these days.

What could this scenario be that none of them were in seat belts?

 

[Whiteorchids]

Something that just came to mind, and I could be SO off, but the seatbelts vs non-seatbelts keeps bothering me. In the interest of just spitballing ideas, while I don’t think this is very probable or likely, I wonder if by any small chance they hoped they (the two women) might survive the crash, while the kids were killed. It could have solved their issues in many ways (tragic accident claims the lives of their sweet children, they somehow managed to survive) - news etc would paint them in the light of grieving mothers who had lost their SIX precious children. There would no longer be any children to report on what home life was like to CPS and they could claim it was a terrible, tragic accident. Again I don’t think this is what happened...but wanted to throw it in the mix.


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We must think alike I posted the same thing earlier as that as one of the possibilities. This case is so horrific I can’t stop thinking about it.

 

[K_Z]

I have been thinking about this home-schooling thing a lot and it is really bothering me. In order to home school six kids of different ages without electronics, you would need a huge amount of teaching resources and supplies - textbooks, reading material, worksheets, science lab materials, paper, etc... Add to that if any of those kids had learning disabilities, which is very possible if they were really exposed to drugs and alcohol in vitro or as young children as the Hart mothers claim, this would make for an even more challenging situation. Now since they had not registered the kids with either Oregon or WA, this means they would have had absolutely no support from the school districts with educational materials, resources or extra tutoring. My son is home schooled but it is through an interactive video program supported by the district and with the availability of additional resources and supplies, if needed, however, even with that support for just one kid, it is a big commitment. Sure, they reportedly had books to read, construction paper and gardens but what about math and science? Since Jen was the one staying home and "teaching" and she is also the one who appears to have been short-tempered and impatient (judging by what the kids told LE and supported by the worm video), I just cannot realistically imagine her running this very complicated home school. So this makes me feel like these kids were not being prepared in any real way for the outside world. Were they expected to stay with their moms and siblings for the rest of their lives? What was the end game here if it this wasn't supposed to happen?

I don't think that is an uncommon situation for many homeschool children. I subscribe to two YouTube channels of families who travel full time in RVs. One family is American, the other is overseas. They both homeschool their children, and film while they do it. They pull into a rest stop, and tell the kids that it's time to do their school work. Then they whip out a small packet of pamphlets and worksheets and have the kids complete the worksheets. Then 15 minutes later they take off down the road again. They have no text books, or other learning materials because they have no room for them. What kind of education is that? They claim they are educating their kids through travel. I'm sorry but that is no education. That is an endless vacation. I feel scared for these kids futures.

I get the sense that there was no "formal" homeschooling going on at all. I think these women subscribed to the "experiential/ observational" philosophy of homeschooling-- once the kids could read and do basic math, the formal approach to education ended. There is no evidence emerging anywhere, of any aspect or details of their homeschooling, except that they "did" it, and there were many books in the home.

No evidence that they were preparing the teens for taking a GED. No college or tech school plans for the 19 year old. No participation in homeschool activities outside the home, conferences, science fairs, etc. Not a single picture of the family engaging in any kind of homeschool activity, or even visiting museums. But lots and lots of pics of them at rallies, protests, fringe music festivals, hippie forest gatherings, etc. The real question is whether the kids could even really read at anything close to age appropriate levels? I sincerely doubt it.

I don't get the sense at all that preparing these teens for college or career was a goal or a process they were engaged in with their philosophy of homeschooling. While both moms apparently met at college in ND, I'm not sure if they ever graduated, or what they were studying. Jen apparently never worked from the time the kids were adopted (early 20s), and Sarah had 2 retail sales level jobs at Herbergers department store in MN and Kohls in OR. The oldest was 19 (Markis). There is no indication if he had a driver's license, or ever held a job.

I don't believe the grocery store story at all-- at best, it is highly embellished. Devonte did not have any evidence of having a vocabulary that developed in any of the videos online. In fact, the "grocery store story" post specifically describes how all of the "psychologists, teachers, and doctors" were "wrong" about Devonte. I think he had quite a lot of challenges and developmental delays/ conditions, which were not being addressed outside of his home environment. Likely some, or all of the other kids did, too.

There is a philosophy among some who adopt kids with massive challenges that "all they need is love." That is not unique to the savior attitudes among some deeply religious families who adopt lots of troubled kids-- plenty of mainstream and yes, even "progressive" families who adopt troubled kids often have a simplistic attitude that with enough love and fresh air, all the psychological, emotional, and social damage can be "undone".

Adoptive parents who accept that their kids have very traumatized backgrounds, AND are willing to seek and accept many different kinds of therapies and helps, usually raise kids who are better able to manage the effects of their traumas and challenges into adulthood. It takes much more than just "love and fresh air" and a good heart, and a tidy home, to raise adopted kids with severe trauma in their early lives. Groups of siblings aren't available for adoption because they had a happy home, or because they can't locate a kinship relative to raise them-- they are stranded sibling groups who are refugees from their severe trauma, neglect, conception and birth, IMO. A realistic attitude and pragmatic approach, filled with love, structure, guidance, affection, and opportunities to make friendships and explore interests is critical to their ability to manage and thrive, IMO. No one "overcomes" this kind of early life trauma-- at best, they can be helped to manage and mitigate the effects as they grow. And for some kids, recognizing that they may not be able to live a totally independent life, and planning for their future, is part of being a realistic and effective parent, IMO.

 

[msphilosopher]

I see that also as very curious.

If there were two adults and seatbelts, and the rest of the children weren't, that just does not make sense to me at all.

I'm trying to think of a scenario where every single one of the children would not be belted in when both adults were.

I just can't think of one scenario these days.

What could this scenario be that none of them were in seat belts?

If they were trying to escape the vehicle before/ during and/or after the crash?

 

[enelram]

The girl that went to the neighbors in the middle of the night, asked the neighbors to take her back to Seattle, twice, she
said it to them. I wonder who was in Seattle where she thought she'd be safe?