CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #10

[mrjitty]

I agree, I think Joey would definitely have given Chase a chance to explain. Which explains why he continued on his way to RC to meet with Chase instead of turning around and just going directly to his bank and police to report the alleged fraud.

It's once he gets to RC that his actions puzzle me. They allegedly had a two hour lunch, which I believe LE stated somewhere that they verified there actually was a lunch meeting (though I know this is still up for debate). Kind of strange if you are angry with and plan to fire someone. So maybe they worked things out? But if they worked things out then what was Chase's motive to murder him? Chase is an experienced and savvy con, he isn't going to kill his cash cow unless he has to. Chase stood to make a lot more money with Joey alive. And both he and Joey had a sweet deal with MSM doing a bulk of the actual work lol, why mess that up over a few thousand dollars?

If Joey did fire Chase, and possibly asked for a storage key back, I would imagine that they left on prickly terms with each other. It is almost certain that Joey made it back to Fallbrook later that afternoon. Why, on his way back home, didn't he call his bank to report the fraud and protect his account? Why didn't he call the police? Ok, maybe he just didn't have the heart to report his friend. But Joey had at least a 1 1/2 hour drive home, why didn't he call anyone to tell them about this huge event that was going to significantly affect his business? Joey was always on his phone...no call to vent to Mom? Dad? McGyver? One of his other many friends? No call to Dan..."lock it all down, Chase is stealing!" No call to vent to/warn SUMMER? No call to MSM, "hey, just want to give you a heads up...". The inaction and lack of communication with anyone is puzzling to me. Anyone but Chase that is, he called HIM several times.

And Chase allowing Joey to leave RC at all, how could he have known whether or not Joey had reported him? Told family/friends about what happened? Would Chase risk going all the way to Fallbrook to murder the family not knowing what Joey might have said to anyone else?

IF Chase did murder the family I just don't think it was over the finances, I really think something else happened.

All IMO

ETA: Sorry this is so long!!! Didn't realize I was typing that much, too much wine again haha!

Again I think Joey's actions are expected if you start from the point that we only know the QB side because forensic police went thru and figured it all out. Joey did not know this stuff. He was accessing off his phone on a crummy 2010 era interface. Did he have his laptop with him? We don't know.

IMO first point of call is to confront chase which is supported by the phone data. He likely called Chase about it, and met with him (no calls between them from 1-3pm)

In Joeys situation, the key person I would speak to is my business partner. But in this case Joey's business partner is the one stealing. So who else do you expect him to call?

Its quite possible he did not call the bank again because he already had all the available info. One of the next steps is actually to see the dodgy cheque. But likely he wanted to talk to chase first. And if as likely, Chase gave some excuse, why is there a need to call the bank?

Re calling Summer. I would not do this. I would wait to see my wife face to face with such bad news. No way would I break it on the phone.

Calling my parents etc? Why? This would not be a priority for me sorry.

I think you all expect Joey to do all these things within a few hours.

IMO he did exactly what i would do.

1. Confront Chase
2. Go home and check things out on a proper computer
3. Call Chase and give him my decision

 

[mrjitty]

Indeed, there was more than one occasion when Chase voluntarily came forward to be interviewed and answer questions. One was early on shortly after the disappearance. Aother was the one video-recorded and played yesterday in court, with Chase sitting by a table and two interviewers . I didn't watch every part so am not sure where it was. I had thought it was a jail interrogation, but when Maline cross examined one of the two officers, he (Maline) pointed it out that Chase had volunteered to go there and answer questions, and he went with his daughter. Something like that.

This is typical in missing persons.

If you don't cooperate with the police, e.g. after the body of your "best friend" and his family have been discovered with their heads stoved in - it doesn't take the police very long to work out who did it!

 

[mrjitty]

If you file a fraud report on your account, it FREEZES immediately. Any outstanding checks will be denied/rejected. It takes quite awhile to get things sorted out.

For a business like Joey's, this would be a total nightmare. If he had no idea who was stealing from his account, then freezing it would be the right answer.

But this was Chase, his long time employee, and someone who he had a 'back and forth' financial flow with already. I am pretty sure that he thought he could sort things out.

Yes.

IMO he likely worked out Chase stole some blanks and forged his signature. There is no reason to think at that point that QB was used necessarily.

So one key was to work out what blanks were missing.

Which he could only do at home in his office.

But you know, the bank gives you a cheque number/payee etc, you jump in QB and the cheque isn't there. So IMO you suspect it is just created on a printer at that stage. No reason to suspect a QB breach.

 

[mrjitty]

CNN


2/4/2010 10:39 am that morning PM talked to JM.

1:17 I was definitely the last person to see him (JM).
5:04 Dan K talking about a spreadsheet of money CM got from JM.

8:35. PM talking about speaking to JM on 2/4.

8:40 Joseph had just received a big check for a fountain
On 2/4. $16,000.00. He was going to go to the bank on 2/4 and deposit the check. There was a bank branch in RC. Near where CM lived.

***Did he get a check? Did he go to the bank? Did CM know he got the check? What happened to the check on 2/4/2010? Keep listening. CM said they got together, they had a lot to talk about.

***CM told CNN everything was fine with JM, but he told PM they argued.

*** another video says CM called JM 16 times on 2/4 and JM called CM 11 times.

All in all pretty good video to watch.

IMO of course

Be so interesting to know if that cheque was deposited

 

[mrjitty]

***Did he get a check? Did he go to the bank? Did CM know he got the check? What happened to the check on 2/4/2010? Keep listening. CM said they got together, they had a lot to talk about.

Interesting his response to "what time did Joey leave lunch"

Notice his lack of commitment to his own answers

 

[Longtimenoc]

I'm pretty sure, that the sentencing phase is after the guilty verdict. Yes, I think he would get off scot-free, if they come back with not guilty.

I'm expecting a conviction. But a hung jury is always a possibility and in that case there would be a retrial. Merritt will remain in jail.

 

[Force Ten]

Ok... if I can make a suggestion, and not just to you, but to anyone that thinks they "know" what those pings mean and what it meant when his phone was not showing tower information, please go and listen to Boles testimony. Listen to both direct and cross, but pay attention to the cross. McGee spent approximately 15 minutes going through calls that went to VM on Merritt's phone that DID NOT show tower information. Some had calls right before or after, so no indication that his phone was off when he got those VM's. I always thought the VM calls would be hard to explain and it did look like his phone was off... but I no longer believe that. This pretty much sums up the VM's to me...

Part 2 Day 24 9:50ish

All of those went to vm's … don't show cell tower information. What does that indicate to you based on your training? As I stated on direct, based on my training, that the phone could be off the network, off, on airplane mode, however, based on cross examination, I would like to confer with AT&T to give a more accurate answer.


I also now have a question about the 8:28 call since learning that Jarvis has said and has maintained all these years that she saw Joey call that night at 8:28 (based on what McGee said in court the other day) I went back today to some other testimony...

@ 50:30 of Hanke's testimony, McGee shows that there are 2 calls on Merritt's records, but only shows once on McStay's that same day. Just another indication that these records are not all that reliable.

There's a pretty simple explanation. If Merritt's phone is off or out of reach of a tower and goes to VM, of course there wouldn't be any tower data. It didn't connect to Merritt's phone. The caller's data would be stored in the tower near them and the routed to VM (a different phone number) which is not on Merritt's phone. Theyre stored on the phone company's servers.

 

[A lucas]

quoting asyousay: “
“This is also why I am not convinced Chase even raped her. Could he of lowered himself to such a level with a women he despised so much?”

Yes I believe he could have. Men can deffo rape women they dislike in an act of control, hatred and anger. JMO.

 

[mrjitty]

There's a pretty simple explanation. If Merritt's phone is off or out of reach of a tower and goes to VM, of course there wouldn't be any tower data. It didn't connect to Merritt's phone. The caller's data would be stored in the tower near them and the routed to VM (a different phone number) which is not on Merritt's phone. Theyre stored on the phone company's servers.

Yes

This is one of the issues with passage of time. As I understand it, actual ping data (i.e phone shaking hands with towers) is all lost.

We are only getting tower info when a call actually connected as that is stored.

If police had been able to get warrants sooner, we might have been able to piece together movement as the phone moved between towers - not just from calls.

 

[Niner]

Hey - it took me from last night & this morning - about 560 plus posts - to catch up with you all. Some of these quotes are from the previous thread.

Does anyone know where day 26 is? Why they haven't uploaded it in the archives?

That is because Day 26 will be on Monday, March 4th.... I believe it is Day 25 that you are looking for.

What evidence convinced you? And I'm not just asking to be cheeky, I really am trying to understand what evidence is convincing those who even if they don't feel the prosecution's case is strong, still believe so strongly in Chase's guilt.

Full disclosure. I was on the fence before trial. Am convinced of Chase's innocence now.

So I'm really trying to understand this better.

All of Tortoise's post has convinced me of his guilt....

snipped by me....
another video says CM called JM 16 times on 2/4 and JM called CM 11 times.

Okay - made me look this up. Per my Timeline - there were a total of 14 calls between them on 2/4. Joey called/texted CM 10 times; CM to Joey 4 times.

link: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/mcstay-family-comprehensive-timeline.285143/

Not only did he call the bank twice that day, but he called two different numbers, I'm so curious about that and really aggravated it seems we won't get any info on it during trial.

Actually he called Union bank twice at about noon after getting into QB. And then again at 1pm.
At 12:15pm Joey calls Bank/accountant, after that 2 calls to CM (12:28pm 6 min & 12:52pm 1 min). After the calls to CM he calls Union bank at 1pm. At 1:01pm Joey calls or texts CM - 1 min. Then nothing until 3:03pm to CM. See link above for info.

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks so much for the crucial cell data.

You're welcome.

The other factor to consider in this being planned in advance, apart from his phone disconnecting from the network for the next 3 hours and 44 minutes, is that it's obvious from the timings of the Mitchley video and the drive distance that Chase probably arrived at the house at about 6.47 pm (1 hour after the call from Joey) and left to move his truck at 7.47 pm.

So while that's plenty of time to kill 4 people it doesn't suggest a visit that turned explosive midway and culminated in murders or decisions on the fly, it suggests a well planned operation, including the time it took to do whatever he did to the bodies quickly to prevent blood transfer to his truck, and take them out of the house.

I believe he probably moved the Trooper so that it wasn't outside the house if anyone who knew them visited, he had several changes of gloves with him for accessing the window and the computer straight after, he had time to think of moving the dogs and putting food in the shed that they could get to, he had keys to consider, phones to take, none of which are time consuming but they do require thought.

All MOO

 

[katydid23]

Niners posted:

Actually he called Union bank twice at about noon after getting into QB. And then again at 1pm.
At 12:15pm Joey calls Bank/accountant, after that 2 calls to CM (12:28pm 6 min & 12:52pm 1 min). After the calls to CM he calls Union bank at 1pm. At 1:01pm Joey calls or texts CM - 1 min. Then nothing until 3:03pm to CM. See link above for info.

Thank You for researching that. I was too lazy to look it up but was curious to do so, as it gets confusing over time...

It seems like Joey was on to those checks already...I'd think the check that Chase created for himself would just be clearing Joeys bank that morning?

I think Chase told the truth when he told Patrick that he and Joey 'fought at the lunch meeting, but worked everything out.' I bet Joey was angry when he arrived but Chase tried hard to smooth it over, agreeing to work for free to 'earn' that money, and to repay the debt, etc. etc.

But Joey was probably still steaming over it. And may have threatened to stop using him for the upcoming big jobs because he couldn't trust him...

 

[Tortoise]

Kevin Boles, in his testimony before the grand jury on the indictment of Robert Pape, claimed that he was in San Bernardino and pinged a tower 30 miles away in the Arrowhead mountains. He speculated that this was due to the altitude of the tower in Arrowhead. The towers in question, during the time period that Chase is believed to have been at the gravesite, are at a much higher altitude than the surrounding towns. If Boles is to be believed, Chase may have been as far as 30 miles from those towers when he pinged them.

He's just so down on his luck.

A family murdered on February 4th
A family buried in the desert.
February 6th, only two days later, a day later on the defense's version, over 6 phone pings in about 3 hours off 4 different towers in and around the desert, cancelling out any chance that he could have been over 30 miles away.
He thought he was calling Joey but his memory's so bad he must have just forgotten by Monday that he didn't call his missing best buddy once.
His sister in Oro Grande said he wasn't at her house in five years.

I say this to all fence-sitters and those who don't believe he is guilty, not specifically JMarsh, where is the honesty in making excuses, such as the 'flyer' tower-hits, for this incriminating evidence?

 

[Longtimenoc]

He's just so down on his luck.

A family murdered on February 4th
A family buried in the desert.
February 6th, only two days later, a day later on the defense's version, over 6 phone pings in about 3 hours off 4 different towers in and around the desert, cancelling out any chance that he could have been over 30 miles away.
He thought he was calling Joey but his memory's so bad he must have just forgotten by Monday that he didn't call his missing best buddy once.
His sister in Oro Grande said he wasn't at her house in five years.

I say this to all fence-sitters and those who don't believe he is guilty, not specifically JMarsh, where is the honesty in making excuses, such as the 'flyer' tower-hits, for this incriminating evidence?

Excellent argument as usual, T. If not for those pesky checks and phone calls, Merritt could be totally exonerated and go dancing out of the court house.

 

[mrjitty]

where is the honesty in making excuses

We saw this on pistorius

Every incriminating point is explained away

Non traditional accounting!
Transfer DNA!
Pseudo science!
Memory problems!
Family man!

 

[Tortoise]

Excellent argument as usual, T. If not for those pesky checks and phone calls, Merritt could be totally exonerated and go dancing out of the court house.

I will say this - if the defense can show that Dan's phone was in the desert all day on February 6th I'll listen. But then I'll also be looking for those posts saying it could be flyer-tower hits.

It's like the DNA argument, if it's not there he didn't do it, when it's there it's a handshake with the murder victim at a meeting only the defendant says happened, to explain the cheques in his possession, of course.

 

[mrjitty]

I will say this - if the defense can show that Dan's phone was in the desert all day on February 6th I'll listen. But then I'll also be looking for those posts saying it could be flyer-tower hits.

It's like the DNA argument, if it's not there he didn't do it, when it's there it's a handshake with the murder victim at a meeting only the defendant says happened, to explain the cheques in his possession, of course.

For me Dan is the only interesting aspect of the case left.

The defence case is effectively Dan did it.

If they cannot establish evidence for that, they are done.

 

[mrjitty]

I will say this - if the defense can show that Dan's phone was in the desert all day on February 6th I'll listen.

What is fascinating now is the gameplay

Just like in Pistorius, the defence has the advantage of knowing the true timeline and of hearing the complete state case.

Now comes the job of fitting an alternative narrative to the evidence.

Chase knows key details and problems in the state case. e.g

- Summer probably was raped at knifepoint (just not at the gravesite)
- It would be too messy to do the murder in some of the rooms - only the killer knows exactly how it was done
- What Dan & Chase did to try to keep financial with the business after 4 Feb

The challenge is to retrofit Dan to all of this. But there is a huge amount of opportunity to paint a version of the state case that doesn't work and then replace it with a better one. IMO the defence won't have real evidence that Dan did it. It's all about trying to create that sliver of doubt

 

[JMarsh]

The victims were killed in a over kill way so to me that points to somebody who knew them.

We know he hated Summer and he didn’t seem impressed by how she was raising the kids either. He couldn’t hide his disdain for Summer even when it would of been better to shut up and Play nice to the cops about what a wonderful woman Summer was.

This is also why I am not convinced Chase even raped her. Could he of lowered himself to such a level with a women he despised so much?!

Was it overkill, though? Statistically, per the most recent FBI report, we actually are more likely to be killed by a stranger, than someone we know.

And to me, the blows seemed in keeping with simply making certain someone is dead. The method of killing is not uncommon if the killer doesn't want the weapon to link back to him/her. That hammer in the grave, for all we know, was a red herring.

Of course, I can't know for certain. I wasn't there. But, I think arguments could be made either way. And I just don't see where this remarkable rage in Chase was supposed to have come from.

In addition, we don't have any evidence that Chase had this kind of rage, ever. There are plenty of records of him involved with theft, but not one, where he was involved in a bar brawl, incidence of domestic violence, or that he had a short temper even.

Where is the evidence of Chase being a particularly rageful person, or that he ever used violence to resolve an issue?

 

[JMarsh]

Hey - it took me from last night & this morning - about 560 plus posts - to catch up with you all. Some of these quotes are from the previous thread.



That is because Day 26 will be on Monday, March 4th.... I believe it is Day 25 that you are looking for.



All of Tortoise's post has convinced me of his guilt....




Okay - made me look this up. Per my Timeline - there were a total of 14 calls between them on 2/4. Joey called/texted CM 10 times; CM to Joey 4 times.

link: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/mcstay-family-comprehensive-timeline.285143/



Actually he called Union bank twice at about noon after getting into QB. And then again at 1pm.
At 12:15pm Joey calls Bank/accountant, after that 2 calls to CM (12:28pm 6 min & 12:52pm 1 min). After the calls to CM he calls Union bank at 1pm. At 1:01pm Joey calls or texts CM - 1 min. Then nothing until 3:03pm to CM. See link above for info.

But what evidence convinced you?