CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #10

[QueenBofOB]

I have a question.
The State of California is prosecuting Charles Merritt for the death penalty.
Are the jurors able to convict on a lessor charge?
Such as manslaughter?
Is it all or nothing?
If they cannot all agree on the death penalty, does that means he walks?

I'm pretty sure, that the sentencing phase is after the guilty verdict. Yes, I think he would get off scot-free, if they come back with not guilty.

 

[missy1974]

I have been lurking and following the threads after waiting so long for this case to come to trial. I have to say that I am really impressed with fellow WS members' intelligent input as this case has progressed.

I think CM is most probably guilty, but if I was a juror at this point, there would be a window of "reasonable doubt" despite the circumstantial evidence presented so far.

I considered CM a slick con man from his first interview back when the family was missing. He creeped me out. If I was a juror, I have to decide, for example, if the (critical) cheque evidence is proof that CM is a thieving ******* , or if it is proof that he is a mass killer. That is quite a stretch from one to the other.

Again, if I was a juror, another thought I would have is why would CM encourage JM's family to call LE to report the family missing when he didn't have alibis for the crucial days after they went missing? If I was guilty, I wouldn't do that and I wouldn't expect a street wise ex-con to make this blatantly stupid mistake.

With this case being 100% circumstantial evidence, and with a death penalty charge, I can see a problem with reasonable doubt for some jurors at this point. Maybe there is more compelling evidence coming from the state to trump the upcoming defense presentation. Just my thoughts on the case so far, and moo.

Welcome back to posting I am sure I have seen your name though... maybe in the old threads?

 

[Texas Red]

Ok... if I can make a suggestion, and not just to you, but to anyone that thinks they "know" what those pings mean and what it meant when his phone was not showing tower information, please go and listen to Boles testimony. Listen to both direct and cross, but pay attention to the cross. McGee spent approximately 15 minutes going through calls that went to VM on Merritt's phone that DID NOT show tower information. Some had calls right before or after, so no indication that his phone was off when he got those VM's. I always thought the VM calls would be hard to explain and it did look like his phone was off... but I no longer believe that. This pretty much sums up the VM's to me...

Part 2 Day 24 9:50ish

All of those went to vm's … don't show cell tower information. What does that indicate to you based on your training? As I stated on direct, based on my training, that the phone could be off the network, off, on airplane mode, however, based on cross examination, I would like to confer with AT&T to give a more accurate answer.


I also now have a question about the 8:28 call since learning that Jarvis has said and has maintained all these years that she saw Joey call that night at 8:28 (based on what McGee said in court the other day) I went back today to some other testimony...

@ 50:30 of Hanke's testimony, McGee shows that there are 2 calls on Merritt's records, but only shows once on McStay's that same day. Just another indication that these records are not all that reliable.

As you suggested I listened to the video and I believe the discrepancy seen in the 8:28 call means JM’s phone made one continuous call to CM’s phone carriers network and was billed as one call by JM’s carrier. But CM’s phone carrier interprets the incoming call as two calls, one from JM’s phone going through the system network to CM’s phone, when not answered the system then reroutes the call to VM, which resides on the network server located elsewhere, since the call has been rerouted to a different location the system then interprets and counts the transfer as a 2nd call for billing purposes. This is probably done by the carrier in order to create more revenue almost like double billing because even if a call last only a few seconds it’s rounded up to the nearest minute.

The only anomalies I could see from that time on my cell phone bill were a few incoming calls showing the incoming number as being unavailable.

Please be aware that my interpretation of the phone record is based upon speculation and I have no special insight regarding cell phone records.

 

[Meemaw12]

Maybe JM walked in the bank to deposit a $16,000.00 check and while in there ask for a print out of his account. I’ve done that many times. Not sure if or how it registers my request with the bank

IMO

 

[cobalt sky]

Dan called and asked why Joey was paying them or how they were connected to EIP, something like that. It is unclear if it was before or after they were killed. The defense asked both Sequieda and Carmen, neither knew. It is on my list of things I want to know haha The defense does have Dan's phone records though, the T-Mobile guy verified them when he was cross examined.

Ok that's right, I'm going to have to listen to his testimony again, we learned quite a lot from it. I wonder why Dan was calling them, how could he not know who MSM was and their relationship to EIP? If it's relevant to the case I'm sure the defense was able to pin down when he called.

I thought it was interesting how different Sequeida and Carmen's recollections were. Sequeida said that Chase wasn't very motivated when it came to getting work done, but Carmen said that she saw Chase there at MSM pretty much every day. If he wasn't busy working on the fountains, what was he doing during the time he was there?

 

[missy1974]

As you suggested I listened to the video and I believe the discrepancy seen in the 8:28 call means JM’s phone made one continuous call to CM’s phone carriers network and was billed as one call by JM’s carrier. But CM’s phone carrier interprets the incoming call as two calls, one from JM’s phone going through the system network to CM’s phone, when not answered the system then reroutes the call to VM, which resides on the network server located elsewhere, since the call has been rerouted to a different location the system then interprets and counts the transfer as a 2nd call for billing purposes. This is probably done by the carrier in order to create more revenue almost like double billing because even if a call last only a few seconds it’s rounded up to the nearest minute.

The only anomalies I could see from that time on my cell phone bill were a few incoming calls showing the incoming number as being unavailable.

Please be aware that my interpretation of the phone record is based upon speculation and I have no special insight regarding cell phone records.

Interesting thanks, I did notice the :47 and :48 thing! I think you mean the earlier call though, not the 8:28 one, right? (the 8:28 one shows once on Joey's, not at all on Chase's)

It does sound like different carriers had different call records, what was in them, tower info, etc.

 

[minusfour]

The last thing the actual killer is going to have in their possession is a photo of where they buried the bodies. This is just another indication that CM is NOT the killer.

The Moors Murderers in the UK took photos of her on one of the grave sites. In the 1960s.

 

[missy1974]

Maybe JM walked in the bank to deposit a $16,000.00 check and while in there ask for a print out of his account. I’ve done that many times. Not sure if or how it registers my request with the bank

IMO

He could have, but then the calls to the bank must have just been coincidence?

 

[cobalt sky]

Maybe JM walked in the bank to deposit a $16,000.00 check and while in there ask for a print out of his account. I’ve done that many times. Not sure if or how it registers my request with the bank

IMO

I don't know if he actually did but I wish he had! I don't know how long banks keep surveillance footage, but it would have been nice to have had footage of him at the bank, if and what he was driving, if anyone was with him, etc. If even just to narrow the timeline down a bit better.

 

[missy1974]

I don't know if he actually did but I wish he had! I don't know how long banks keep surveillance footage, but it would have been nice to have had footage of him at the bank, if and what he was driving, if anyone was with him, etc. If even just to narrow the timeline down a bit better.

Not long enough in this case. IIRC April, the fraud investigator, said 30-90 days, depending on the servers. A lot was lost because they were considered "missing". Dugal was unable to get search warrants.

 

[Texas Red]

Interesting thanks, I did notice the :47 and :48 thing! I think you mean the earlier call though, not the 8:28 one, right? (the 8:28 one shows once on Joey's, not at all on Chase's)

It does sound like different carriers had different call records, what was in them, tower info, etc.

"I think you mean the earlier call though, not the 8:28 one, right? "
Yes correct. No matter what the true meaning of the phone records happens to be they're created for billing purposes and should be considered as such, they're prone to errors and when errors do appear the consequence can be someone cheated and overpaying but using these unreliable records to send someone to the gallows needs to cease.

 

[Texas Red]

The Moors Murderers in the UK took photos of her on one of the grave sites. In the 1960s.

Was that the last thing she did?

 

[Meemaw12]

It just seems to me a lot was going on between JM (owner) and CM (sub-contractor) on 2/4/2010.

JM leaves home heads to RC to go to the bank with a large check (if true) meets CM for lunch (if true) to talk about things or argue about things (depending on who CNs talking to). There were reported either 16 or 19 phone calls from CM to JMs phone and 11 calls from JM to CMs phone. That IMO is a lot for one day.
Then on same day the whole McStay family disappears.

Something surely was going on.

It IMO is a shame that a murderer might go free because of crappy police work. That IMO is why there are so many questions that can’t be answered to everyone’s satisfaction.
People in the house for days doing whatever. It’s nuts.

JMO

 

[missy1974]

"I think you mean the earlier call though, not the 8:28 one, right? "
Yes correct. No matter what the true meaning of the phone records happens to be they're created for billing purposes and should be considered as such, they're prone to errors and when errors do appear the consequence can be someone cheated and overpaying but using these unreliable records to send someone to the gallows needs to cease.

I would definitely have to agree with this after listening to Boles testimony. What I posted earlier was just a drop in the bucket of what all came out lol There was another question he didn't want to answer before 'conferring with AT&T', I think it was about the cell reception where CM lived. Calls that were hitting towers near his place 1 minute, 18 miles away the next minute. Scary stuff that these are relied upon to interrogate witnesses (like we saw in the small clip of Merritt's interview) and to put people away. JMO

 

[Meemaw12]

One other thing on then heading to bed.

CM calls JMs mother, she tells CM to check the water and food bowls for the dogs to see if they were moved, that way they would know if the family had someone feeding the dogs and would know that the family was just out Of Town. He does and a couple days later tells her they have been moved. She thinks well the family is just out of town. The was slick.

The above was in the CNN video.

IMO

 

[mrjitty]

I see it different. I think CM was attempting to exploit the fact JM was nowhere to be found and he dated the checks to Feb. 4th in order to give himself an out so when JM returned it would be CM’s word against JM in case JM did happen to report the missing money to police. CM was street smart he’s not going to kill a family and then followup with a crime that’s going to lead police right to him.

This doesn't work for 2 reasons

1. At midday on the 5th, how could he know "Joey was not around"?

2. He must have created the first Paul Mitchell Cheque in Joey's office

I am yet to see one solid explanation for the backdating amongst the "non traditional accounting" theories

 

[mrjitty]

OK. Link to this please. Where in any of the evidence does even the DA claim that this occurred? You can't just make things up-unless you qualify that you are doing so. As you have said, please back up any assertions with evidence that supports that assertion.

Still waiting ....

 

[mrjitty]

One other thing on then heading to bed.

CM calls JMs mother, she tells CM to check the water and food bowls for the dogs to see if they were moved, that way they would know if the family had someone feeding the dogs and would know that the family was just out Of Town. He does and a couple days later tells her they have been moved. She thinks well the family is just out of town. The was slick.

The above was in the CNN video.

IMO

Like many killers he injected himself into the mystery so he could shape the narrative and keep on top of developments

It's a key aspect of profiling in these sorts of crime scene stagings

 

[mrjitty]

No point in paying for a stop payment on a check that has already been cashed.

Exactly

We need to remember Joey was literally on the road and going to a meeting with Chase.

It's highly likely he did not find the deleted QB cheques (how would he know to look for them?). Also he did not yet have possession of a copy of the fraudulent cheque.

We all know in 2019 how the cheque was created and hidden. But Joey did not know this late morning on the 4th and we don't know what Chase told him.

It's quite likely IMO that Joey did not figure this all out the QB aspect until he got home, even if he did figure it out before he died.

So the idea he should have done X, Y, Z that afternoon is with benefit of hindsight after work by investigators and not based on Joey's knowledge

 

[asyousay]

So the checks are really the thing. OK. That makes sense. Not quite sure I get the "brute force" part, but the checks I understand.

The victims were killed in a over kill way so to me that points to somebody who knew them.

We know he hated Summer and he didn’t seem impressed by how she was raising the kids either. He couldn’t hide his disdain for Summer even when it would of been better to shut up and Play nice to the cops about what a wonderful woman Summer was.

This is also why I am not convinced Chase even raped her. Could he of lowered himself to such a level with a women he despised so much?!