CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #2

[Auntie Cipation]

I'm now agreeing with you both that it was probably dad first. My earlier thinking of dog and baby first has too many problems with it (they would have removed Miju from the carrier to tend her, pour water on her, fan her, etc).

I guess we aren't certain about the dog being leashed or not, as the news articles have vague or unclear language on that, but if the dog fell ill to the point of not being able to keep up, they would have tried to carry him, at least as long as they thought he was alive or had a chance of being resuscitated. If the dog was leashed then that's a sign he was still mobile at the time dad sat down.

This is all so sad.

 

[EndoraXplorer]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

@rahod1 - going back to Burning Man, the recommendation is that each person needs to bring 1.5 gallons (5.7 liters) of water per day. The reality is that typically no one ever drinks that much. We have ended up with as much as 100 gallons of water left over at the end of our stay. So them bringing 3L of water on what was probably meant to be a day hike of a few hours does not seem "unreasonable" to me and probably didn't to them either (MOO). Descriptions of hikes can also be somewhat misleading. One of my favorite hikes is Purisima Creek -- while it's described as a pleasant stroll among redwoods, at one point you're hoofing it up a fully exposed, steep fire road and the trees are on the sides, not on the trail itself.

Anyway, I've been wondering whether they had any other items with them (as someone else posted a few posts back). A Nalgene bottle (those are usually 32oz / 1L), juice box for the baby, etc. Would be odd to not have some sort of snack or applesauce or something. All this just speculation.

 

[SophieRose]

FIRE DANGER
Fire danger at Hite Cove is extreme during summer months due to high temperatures, low humidity, low
elevation, evening winds and highly flammable vegetation.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Some posts have been removed.

Stop the back and forth bickering, snark, and combative nonsense in this thread or Thread Reply Bans or Time Outs will be issued.

Thanks.

ETA: Also, a reminder that ALL images require a link to the source.

 

[everybodhi]

Fair enough.

Here is a photo above the switchback where they recovered the bodies.
<modsnip: No link to image. All images require a link to the source>

Reposted with link:
Here’s where the Mariposa family was mysteriously found dead in the Sierra near Yosemite

 

[JustReading01]

That's exactly what I've been thinking too. I think perhaps they thought if they stopped, they could cool down. Perhaps their cognition was already being affected at that point. I think they may have sat down in the hopes of regrouping, & he fell unconscious. Some people have said, wouldn't Ellen have taken the baby, or the dog. But if she was truly desperate, perhaps she thought it was best to leave them so that she could go as fast as possible. The fact that she didn't take his phone used to seem weird to me, but now I've come to suspect they were far enough in a delirium that she might not have even thought of that. JMO.

Yes, cognition: the mental fuzzies. By the time she left, I think she was sick herself. Because of how soon she collapsed.

@Auntie Cipation I think the dog was left to guard the baby.

MOO

 

[Coquette]

Hey thanks for your thoughts. My responses follow.

Strikes me a dying even a couple of days apart is unlikely. Your loved one, maybe with a baby, is sick to the point they can't move suddenly - you move. You don't wait for a chopper. They were all found together. Maybe they decided not to, but if you're right on the trail, seems to me you move.

Heat stroke en masse? This was a wooded area or near one, as I recall. Dogs, babies, and folks shouldn't all drop off from heat stroke within moments or even hours of each other with water sources nearby capable of giving them algae bloom or whatever. Or at least it's waaaaaaay off the scale of likelihood.

I disagree with you relative to your thoughts about "zero evidence". You're incorrect on this point. You've got an entirely dead family here - plus the dog, on or near a trafficked trail. I've seen at least some speculation about murder. No third-party hangs around to murder the dog too, unless the dog's a problem. Not a mark on the dog. No.

You take out the dog because it's best for the dog, so it won't suffer in your absence.

I'm a lawyer, licensed in two states, 25 years now in practice. I deal in evidence daily. And you're staring at a ton of admissible evidence. Probative value? I agree, there's more to do here before drawing conclusions. I'm just sayin', I've got a fair sense of where this is heading.

Happy to be wrong, by the way. Maybe.

I said something very similar in the last thread about the dog. And yes, happy to be wrong.

 

[woods]

I'm a couple of pages behind still but I strongly feel that we need to explore the term "attached" as it's used in reference to what most seem to assume is the dog being "attached" to the dad. I feel that this is a miscommunication, misinterpretation, or just a simple typo that happened earlier in the first thread (possibly around page 31 or 32). The only source I've found for this info so far (and I have spent well over an hour going back and rereading links from the first thread now) is this one from the Mirror in the UK that is cited here as well. I feel like the Sheriff's post cited a few pages ago in this thread #2 may actually clarify that. In that post the verbiage states that: "The sheriff said Miju was “in a kangaroo bag close to her father, but not tied to her father, and Hellen was located about 30 meters away". In the statement cited in the Mirror article, it states, "Mr Briese said the baby was in a backpack carrier with the dog near her father but attached to him, while her mum was 30 yards away". These seem to be very very similar statements. I believe they may well have both originated from the same statement but were perhaps more clearly interpreted in the second citation. The verbiage initially used was "not tied to". That has bothered me ever since I first read it. I would not use the term "tied to" to describe a dog on a leash. But I could see an English tabloid making that translation. I would be even MORE quick to believe that tabloid might use the term "tied to" if they were interpreting a statement meant to indicate that a baby in a sling type of carrier were not "attached" to the person the babybwas found beside.

And the reason I think we need to reevaluate that information is due to some of the other discussion from the first thread that centered around the dog being thoight to have been "leashed" ("attached") to dad. IIRC someone mentioned that they thought the dog could have more of an attachment to mom. And that they believed they had seen evidence to indicate that the dog often accompanied the family off-leash on their walks. So they then wondered why the dog may have been found near dad & the baby - rather than nearer mom.

<deep breath> bear with me, I know this is a long post but...I'll try to wrap it up.

So, if we reset and consider that perhaps the "attached" comment pertained to the baby & the dad, then we're back to not knowing if the dog was on a leash. And that reopens the question of why was the dog near dad & not mom. And to that point, I will go back to a comment I made earlier (possibly last thread) about my belief that the dog encountered difficulties first. This most likely would have slowed their hike and could have resulted in mom carrying the baby rather than dad ...as I'm guessing they could likely have refused to leave their beloved pet behind and decided to try to carry it out. I'm sure that scenario would have led to multiple delays and mom likely carrying the baby while dad had the dog. And, as I've said earlier, possibly to an end scenario where dad is overcome with heat & exertion and if forced to put the dog down and sit to rest. I would guess that mom would try to render aide as best she could but likely finally realized that she needed to go on ahead on her own. ***but here's the important part***: in this scenario, she must realize that she needs to leave the baby behind so she removes the carrier and places the baby beside dad. So where would she put the baby?! ...I'm thinking she'd put the baby in dad's shade. So dad is still coherent enough to realize this and props himself in a stabile enough position to maintain that shade as long as he can.

And if you've hung with me this long, perhaps you're already guessing my next thought: I wonder if the position of dad & baby's bodies might indicate where the shade might have been at the time they ended up there. If so? That could help LE establish a time of day when they found themselves in the positions they were found.

Or perhaps I'm just way too long winded and am grasping at straws and should find my way to bed for the night. ?? I dunno. Of course this is MOO.

In all of the pictures I’ve seen, the dad was the one carrying the baby.

 

[Officer Dibble]

I agree with this. Also, my mother grew up in East Africa and every time we would go for holidays, she made us drink a small glass of orange juice with salt and sugar every morning with breakfast. I know there are better drinks now but I often think on how many people who exercise a lot don’t realise how salt can leech out their systems and needs to be replaced (I myself had problems with this when I used to run). I’m definitely not judging but a family like this looks very health conscious to me and I’m just wondering if salt reduction was a focus of theirs. Saying that, however, they were expert hikers so I’m sure they knew this. I’m mentioning it though for others to consider just in light of our increasingly hotter summers.

Very good point re salt intake. I used to get heat sick a lot until I started consuming salt everyday in hot countries - problem solved ever since.

 

[GatorFL]

Evaporative cooling won't work in Florida humidity, you would need the frozen inserts

Too heavy then, no thanks.

 

[GatorFL]

I have to admit, when I first heard about this that was my initial take. But after having done a bit of *research* , I've completely ruled out that scenario. You can read through some of my posts as to why. Many assume they all died *at once* when that probably isn't the case at all. Heat slowly attacked each victim and just because they were all found in close proximity to each other doesn't mean they perished simultaneously. I won't elaborate....but many scenarios have been posted here on that subject. Bottom line the simplest explanation is often the best
AKA OCCAM'S RAZOR>>>HEAT STROKE<< They simply weren't prepared and I have suggested they were woefully short on water for the KNOWN CONDITIONS at the time. MOO

BBM: They had water still so they weren't short. You'll suck your bladder dry and still have plenty of hydration in your body to do a 1.5 mile hike with 1,500 feet of elevation gain. It'll suck but be completely possible.

 

[GatorFL]

I understand why some tissue samples etc. might take weeks to test, but the water should have been tested by now - you might not be able to determine what it was tainted with, immediately, but you should be able to discern a binary tainted/not tainted result.

It’s also potentially a matter of public health and safety if their demise is tied to the algae blooms and they were drinking “filtered” water from the river that wasn’t really filtered. If the water came back clean, they should tell the public that, too.

Great point.

We had a Cyanobacteria outbreak in a neighboring city's (West Palm Beach) water supply recently. Lots of media coverage and specific warnings that filtering and even boiling water would not remove the cyanotoxin from the water supply. It ended up being pretty easy to treat at the water treatment plant but was difficult to detect.

 

[GatorFL]

I read that the temp that day was 109 degrees. That is a brutal temperature. It is like a couple hiking in — 20 below zero frigid temps. Both could probably succumb to that severe temp too.

It is an unusual and unbelievably tragic case. I hope we get some answers on the cause. I’m just speculating.

I haven't seen 109 degrees anywhere except this post. Did you make a typo?

 

[GatorFL]

The fact that only ONE Camel Back bladder was reported (with residual water still in it) is very telling in and of itself. That's not nearly enough for two adults on a four hour hike in hot weather with a 3Mile return hike uphill, Child and Dog not withstanding.

Where has it been reported they only had residual water? LEO has stated that they had water. That's different than residual water. Misinformation.

 

[Countem]

Where has it been reported they only had residual water? LEO has stated that they had water. That's different than residual water. Misinformation.

“The family also had a backpack with a bladder that held a small amount of water, the sheriff said. They sent the water for testing.”

'Not one clue': The mystery is only deepening around the family found dead on a Sierra trail

 

[RickshawFan]

Where has it been reported they only had residual water? LEO has stated that they had water. That's different than residual water. Misinformation.

The amount cited is “small amount of water”. Since it is assumed the family started with a full bladder, “small” represents the amount remaining, namely “residual”.

The bizarre deaths of the Gerrish family in Devil’s Gulch — StrangeOutdoors.com

 

[RickshawFan]

BBM: They had water still so they weren't short. You'll suck your bladder dry and still have plenty of hydration in your body to do a 1.5 mile hike with 1,500 feet of elevation gain. It'll suck but be completely possible.

It’s very likely that although they had a small amount of water remaining, if they had been out any length of time in those conditions, and they only had the one bladder, they hadn’t drunk enough.

 

[alibrarian]

I didn't start thinking about this until yesterday. I'm not familiar with poisons (intentional). Nor natural contaminants that could be present in the water supply of their home, and not necessarily from the river (unintentional).

I don't suppose their house has been searched for any clues?

MOO.

I have been wondering about the water source from the home as well. Was it bottled water? From the tap? What is the water source in a home that far out from towns and cities? Just curious as I grew up on a small farm and our water source was a well. There were times we couldn't use the well water and had to buy water due to a variety of factors including dry conditions.

 

[d4i5y]

Article in today’s Daily Mail about a second hiker having died in Death Valley. Heatstroke is suspected. Out of interest, I looked up the temperature for Saturday, August 21st (when he succumbed) and it was 109 which, according to the park’s Facebook entry (Death Valley National Park) is BELOW the average of 115 for this time of year. Age and fitness variations aside, this does seem to suggest temperatures in this region (100+) are definitely risky in terms of heatstroke (and again given these people will presumably be well hydrated and carrying water otherwise).

The article also includes a summary of the Gerrish/Chung fatalities and reports and quotes a few things that may be of possible interest (I have made bold the most salient points):

a) It quotes the sheriff as saying the baby was found near but not on her father. The quote is: “... Briese said, Miju was ‘in a backpack carrier near the dad, but not on the dad,' and Chung was found about 30 yards away”. It’s worth pointing out the DM has sourced this quote from the Times which I would consider a very reliable source.

b) It mentions the state is re-testing river water (which suggests to me they are still focusing on this). The quote is “... California State Water Resources Control Board and Mariposa County are now re-testing the river water for cyanobacterial toxins...”.

The link to the DM article is here: Two hikers die on same Death Valley trail just days apart as temperatures in California rocket | Daily Mail Online

 

[jonjon747]

Devil's Gulch, that place is cursed man.
Wonder no one hikes there even on weekends.
IDK what they were thinking going there with their baby and dog.

Not trying to freak out anyone here but
Here's the image of a face of devil and Devil's Gulch sits right between its horns.

Capture [/IMG]