CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #4

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This is what I've always thought why they did the hike. It's something I would have done but not on such a hot day.

From the San Francisco Chronicle:
https://mobile.twitter.com/sfchronicle/status/1428582701544599552

“They probably went to just venture out, so it wouldn’t have been like an extreme hike of any sort,” a family friend said. “It was probably just kind of, since they lived near the trailhead, ‘Let’s take a look at these things.’”
 
MrsEmmaPeel said:
For all of us learning things here, paper maps show trail, terrain, elevation, topography in tangible form. There's no confusion about a trail name, because with the map you know where you are. Maps have context. I'm sure younger people will argue this is available in electronic form, but it simply isn't the same. My adult children cannot read a paper map! It's a skill, and I believe it's one that makes a hiker safer. Just my two cents!
Click to expand...
My name is Paul, and I'm a map-a-holic. Paper, electronic, they're both good, I have a printer and a scanner, so one can become the other. It's hard to come by a paper map these days, I download them or use mapping software to create one. I use Google Maps and Earth a lot, it's very cool to see what the landscape looks like, often I can see trails that are not on the map. I don't use a phone though, perhaps that's what you mean, too small. I'm so old I used to have a crush on Mrs Emma Peel.
 
SophieRose said:
This is what I've always thought why they did the hike. It's something I would have done but not on such a hot day.
Click to expand...

Here's *THE RUB*>>> LE (as well as all of us on this board) walks a fine line between trying to question what happened and crossing the *BLAME* line. I admit I crossed it several times, which violated the rules here. It's frustrating, but rules are rules. As far as LE>>> MOO>>> They probably distilled this mystery to a probable cause (HEAT STROKE), but they are compelled to rule out all other causes. It's not a cover up, but it's still frustrating because we all want CLOSURE. Will that ever come? I'm convinced there will never be a definitive resolution even if LE determines a *probable cause* of death. Stay tuned. This just my 2 cents worth and MOO.
 
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Lex Parsimoniae said:
My name is Paul, and I'm a map-a-holic. Paper, electronic, they're both good, I have a printer and a scanner, so one can become the other. It's hard to come by a paper map these days, I download them or use mapping software to create one. I use Google Maps and Earth a lot, it's very cool to see what the landscape looks like, often I can see trails that are not on the map. I don't use a phone though, perhaps that's what you mean, too small. I'm so old I used to have a crush on Mrs Emma Peel.
Click to expand...

Hi Paul, my name is Kit (named after Carson, the actual first non-native ‘discoverer’ of YValley in ‘46). I am Old Skool but I don’t want to know the 12 steps to wean me away from a paper Topo map (and compass). I have dozens. And I pore over them regularly, just because. (But sorry, every schoolboy back in the 60’s had a crush on Ms. Rigg).

And ya wanna know what else? When climbers and hikers get together they don’t share smiling photos on mountaintops in exotic locales. (And I only hope those that do pay attention to the challenges faced by their guides/porters or don’t confuse a VIP-glamping experience sponsored by Google as conquering the desert). Instead, they talk about what went wrong and, on rarer occasions, problems overcome and what actually went right for a welcome change.
 
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SophieRose said:
From the San Francisco Chronicle, picture of gate at Hite Cove OHV Trail. I believe sign says Closed for Maintenance. I wonder how much maintenance, if any, was done on the trail since it has been closed since the 2018 fire.

https://mobile.twitter.com/sfchronicle/status/1428582697425801218/photo/1
Click to expand...

When I was up there in April, I was interested in the trailhead off of the highway. It's across the hwy from the river. The part of the Hite Cove trail with the spectacular flowers. Anyway, I learned that there had been much work done on the trail, and in fact had only reopened this year, after being closed since the fires.
 
Recidivist said:
When I was up there in April, I was interested in the trailhead off of the highway. It's across the hwy from the river. The part of the Hite Cove trail with the spectacular flowers. Anyway, I learned that there had been much work done on the trail, and in fact had only reopened this year, after being closed since the fires.
Click to expand...

That trail is nowhere near where the family was purported to have started. MOO.
 
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SophieRose said:
No. They most likely chose that trail because it's right down the street from the new house they bought in July.
Click to expand...

There's a little problem with that assumption.

I looked into most popular hiking trail apps for android device (I"m assuming he had an android based smartphone because he worked as an engineer for Google android team,

there's NOT a single app (top 5 downloaded on the list) that lists Hite Cove trail, which is closest to their new house as you mentioned, in any search result, and Savage Lundy trail is even worse, a non-existing trail in probably all of trail apps.

Were they carrying a paper map and decided to take on a more adventurous hiking?
I wish there's some kind of evidence or proof to that supposition.
 
Question: are forensics able to determine time of death (hour) in a case like this?
To show, for example, that one individual’s physiological death occurred a few hours before another’s.
I’m not asking if this info would be released to the public, I’m asking if forensic specialists can determine time of death in a case such as this.
Since I’m not an expert, I don’t know if what factors may prevent a time of death assessment. Extreme heat/aridity, or length of time after death but before the individuals were found, for example.
I agree with those who said it’s hard to imagine all died of heat instantly, but I also agree that heat seems to have been a strong factor if not the principal factor.
If time of death were able to be assessed, it could contribute to a theory that all perished of heat but at different times/hours.
 
ItalyReader said:
Question: are forensics able to determine time of death (hour) in a case like this?
To show, for example, that one individual’s physiological death occurred a few hours before another’s.
I’m not asking if this info would be released to the public, I’m asking if forensic specialists can determine time of death in a case such as this.
Since I’m not an expert, I don’t know if what factors may prevent a time of death assessment. Extreme heat/aridity, or length of time after death but before the individuals were found, for example.
I agree with those who said it’s hard to imagine all died of heat instantly, but I also agree that heat seems to have been a strong factor if not the principal factor.
If time of death were able to be assessed, it could contribute to a theory that all perished of heat but at different times/hours.
Click to expand...
I don't think they can determine exact time of death, but they can establish the approximate time by looking at several factors. Rigor mortis, the rate of decomposition, blood pooling, stomach contents, and insect activity can all help to determine how long a person has been dead. I'm sure there is more but that's all I can think of, based on other cases I've followed.

They may not know for sure whether they all died together, but if there was a couple of hours difference or more, the ME might be able to tell. IMO
 
ItalyReader said:
Question: are forensics able to determine time of death (hour) in a case like this?
To show, for example, that one individual’s physiological death occurred a few hours before another’s.
I’m not asking if this info would be released to the public, I’m asking if forensic specialists can determine time of death in a case such as this.
Since I’m not an expert, I don’t know if what factors may prevent a time of death assessment. Extreme heat/aridity, or length of time after death but before the individuals were found, for example.
I agree with those who said it’s hard to imagine all died of heat instantly, but I also agree that heat seems to have been a strong factor if not the principal factor.
If time of death were able to be assessed, it could contribute to a theory that all perished of heat but at different times/hours.
Click to expand...
They lay there on the trail for nearly two days before they were found- from sometime Sunday, to 11am Tuesday. Then it said LE spent the night there to protect the bodies, so it must have been Wednesday before they were removed. It was very hot during those days... I'm sure that made determining a precise time of death very difficult. Surely subtle forensic signs would be difficult to determine too. If they are able to recover info from the phone, maybe that would narrow it down, but it seems unlikely they will be able to say one person died an hour before another. Purely my own opinion.
 
Lex Parsimoniae said:
They lay there on the trail for nearly two days before they were found- from sometime Sunday, to 11am Tuesday. Then it said LE spent the night there to protect the bodies, so it must have been Wednesday before they were removed. It was very hot during those days... I'm sure that made determining a precise time of death very difficult. Surely subtle forensic signs would be difficult to determine too. If they are able to recover info from the phone, maybe that would narrow it down, but it seems unlikely they will be able to say one person died an hour before another. Purely my own opinion.
Click to expand...

Ok, thank you. Definitely rough conditions and very sad.
I agree one hour difference would seem hard if not impossible to determine - again I am no expert. I had been considering instead the possibility of a greater difference in hours, 5 hours difference, 10 hours difference, etc.
Respectfully, ItalyReader
 
jonjon747 said:
There's a little problem with that assumption.

I looked into most popular hiking trail apps for android device (I"m assuming he had an android based smartphone because he worked as an engineer for Google android team,

there's NOT a single app (top 5 downloaded on the list) that lists Hite Cove trail, which is closest to their new house as you mentioned, in any search result, and Savage Lundy trail is even worse, a non-existing trail in probably all of trail apps.

Were they carrying a paper map and decided to take on a more adventurous hiking?
I wish there's some kind of evidence or proof to that supposition.
Click to expand...

Sorry if I'm repeating things but: https://www.alltrails.com/trail/us/california/hite-cove-road?u=m
 
Lex Parsimoniae said:
They lay there on the trail for nearly two days before they were found- from sometime Sunday, to 11am Tuesday. Then it said LE spent the night there to protect the bodies.
Click to expand...
Snipped for focused reply, and BBM.
Was LE wearing hazmat ventilators?
If not, then why didn't they succumb to hypothesized algae bloom fumes as well?

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
Absolute best article I've read on the real dangers of hiking -- "A DOZEN WAYS TO DIE: How do hikers meet their maker in the backcountry? The answers may surprise you" -- from Backpacker.com. With analysis and advice. 1. Falls 2. Drowning 3. Heart Attack 4. Hyperthermia 5. Heat Stress. 6. Lightning (in that order) My guess is that the odds of their deaths fall within these scenarios.

"Most of these victims made mistakes–the same kind we all get away with on a regular basis. And therein lies the point: We’re not replaying these tragedies to wallow in others’ misfortunes. In each tale, we see a bit of ourselves, plus a few lessons that may help you avoid a similar fate." A Dozen Ways to Die
 
ItalyReader said:
Question: are forensics able to determine time of death (hour) in a case like this?
To show, for example, that one individual’s physiological death occurred a few hours before another’s.
I’m not asking if this info would be released to the public, I’m asking if forensic specialists can determine time of death in a case such as this.
Since I’m not an expert, I don’t know if what factors may prevent a time of death assessment. Extreme heat/aridity, or length of time after death but before the individuals were found, for example.
I agree with those who said it’s hard to imagine all died of heat instantly, but I also agree that heat seems to have been a strong factor if not the principal factor.
If time of death were able to be assessed, it could contribute to a theory that all perished of heat but at different times/hours.
Click to expand...

Ms. Betsy above detailed how time of death can be concluded quite well. I will just add that it would be very difficult to pinpoint exact time due to many variables, but a good ME could get it to within a 6-8 hour window, based on the information that we currently have. I'm surprised an estimated time of death has not been released.
 
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