CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #4

[NSamuelle]

Ms. Betsy above detailed how time of death can be concluded quite well. I will just add that it would be very difficult to pinpoint exact time due to many variables, but a good ME could get it to within a 6-8 hour window, based on the information that we currently have. I'm surprised an estimated time of death has not been released.

Even if the ME could not determine a time of death, could they determine an approximate delta between TOD for different people, e.g., if Ellen died 5 hours after JG, or “some time after?” Such questions can become legally important when dealing with wills and intestate dispositions.

 

[Curious_in_NC]

Absolute best article I've read on the real dangers of hiking -- "A DOZEN WAYS TO DIE: How do hikers meet their maker in the backcountry? The answers may surprise you" -- from Backpacker.com. With analysis and advice. 1. Falls 2. Drowning 3. Heart Attack 4. Hyperthermia 5. Heat Stress. 6. Lightning (in that order) My guess is that the odds of their deaths fall within these scenarios.

"Most of these victims made mistakes–the same kind we all get away with on a regular basis. And therein lies the point: We’re not replaying these tragedies to wallow in others’ misfortunes. In each tale, we see a bit of ourselves, plus a few lessons that may help you avoid a similar fate." A Dozen Ways to Die

Great article. Thanks for sharing! Number 3 was especially tragic. "Within minutes, an ER nurse from Chicago happened by, then an ICU nurse from Stanford. “You couldn’t get that kind of expertise on a sidewalk outside a hospital,” says Gibson. “But it was no use.”
Just one minor correction. #4 is Hypothermia.

 

[Pseudonymph]

With regard to who succumbed first…if the baby was in danger, she would not be in her carrier. They would have taken her out and cooled her off via any means available. I don’t think she was the first to go. My guess it was the dog, then dad passed out. But a mother who was going for help would have tried to take the baby, so even though it appears she was headed back that way, she would only have left her baby if she was absolutely desperate.

Or maybe she did go to the car, leaving dad conscious and watching the baby/dog under a tree, and she brought extra water from the car. Maybe she got there and realized she had no keys. Perhaps when she got back, everyone was incapacitated and she herself succumbed. There are many possible sequences.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Great article. Thanks for sharing! Number 3 was especially tragic. "Within minutes, an ER nurse from Chicago happened by, then an ICU nurse from Stanford. “You couldn’t get that kind of expertise on a sidewalk outside a hospital,” says Gibson. “But it was no use.”
Just one minor correction. #4 is Hypothermia.

Yes, hypothermia is too cold, hyperthermia is too hot. Regarding heart attack, I mentioned earlier that a dear friend had a heart attack and died on one of my hikes. Her husband said he was told that 95% of heart attacks like that (blood clot blockage in an artery of the heart) would be fatal even in the hospital. There just isn't enough time to diagnose and remove the blockage before the heart is permanently damaged.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

If that trail isn't listed on Alltrails, I can see why they wouldn't know how strenuous the hike was going to be. Once they reached the switchbacks, it really does sound as if they were trapped.

But looking down or going down either trail into a very steep canyon would have given a sense of how steep the climb up out of it would be, on either trail, a more visceral sense than an app. They may have hoped the switchbacks might make it feel easier, dunno. There is a review on AT about people who looked at how deep the canyon is and noped out before heading down, that was in the spring.

 

[NSamuelle]

Even if the ME could not determine a time of death, could they determine an approximate delta between TOD for different people, e.g., if Ellen died 5 hours after JG, or “some time after?” Such questions can become legally important when dealing with wills and intestate dispositions.

Sorry to reply to my own post; state law differs so I looked up CA law. In CA, the “survivorship period” is 120 hours, i.e., a person must outlive you by 120 hours in order to be an intestate (no will) beneficiary. So it’s inapplicable here. If they died intestate, their property would go to their parents.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

With regard to who succumbed first…if the baby was in danger, she would not be in her carrier. They would have taken her out and cooled her off via any means available. I don’t think she was the first to go. My guess it was the dog, then dad passed out. But a mother who was going for help would have tried to take the baby, so even though it appears she was headed back that way, she would only have left her baby if she was absolutely desperate.

Or maybe she did go to the car, leaving dad conscious and watching the baby/dog under a tree, and she brought extra water from the car. Maybe she got there and realized she had no keys. Perhaps when she got back, everyone was incapacitated and she herself succumbed. There are many possible sequences.

Look up "babies and heat". Enough said.

 

[Pseudonymph]

Look up "babies and heat". Enough said.

I know all about heat and babies. But I also know parents. I am one. If that baby was in danger in any way, and the parents were alert, she was coming out of the carrier to be held, comforted, cooled, resuscitated, etc.

 

[lotus777]

I know all about heat and babies. But I also know parents. I am one. If that baby was in danger in any way, and the parents were alert, she was coming out of the carrier to be held, comforted, cooled, resuscitated, etc.

And under a specific tragic circumstance she could have been put back in the carrier.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Thank you @Lex Parsimoniae and @Curious_in_NC for the correction! Hello, Lex, fellow map lover. My point, besides the scope of paper and topo maps, is that they provide a fuller context of an area. To go from screen to screen following a dot or in the case of AllTrails, to trust location data from multiple digital sources feels less accurate. To my knowledge, location data is not based on cartography but on aggregate location data; hence, the number of times Google maps steer you wrong. In my experience, very localized maps are invaluable for driving backroads and finding places (not towns.) Even the clunky driving atlas I have of California, I think, shows the trail and Devil's Gulch. I was surprised.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

And under a specific tragic circumstance she could have been put back in the carrier.

Or not held or ministered to because a parent was under the influence of heat or overcome by grief. I simply cannot imagine anything more horrible as a mother than finding my baby dead.

 

[Newsjunkiejen]

Sorry to reply to my own post; state law differs so I looked up CA law. In CA, the “survivorship period” is 120 hours, i.e., a person must outlive you by 120 hours in order to be an intestate (no will) beneficiary. So it’s inapplicable here. If they died intestate, their property would go to their parents.

It's an interesting point that you've raised though, and one that I didn't even consider: in theory which side of the family the inheritance would now be with, depending on who died last.

It's sad that those seemingly fickle and immaterial things will have to be considered at some point down the line. Money and inheritance seem almost inconsequential when four lovely lives have been lost.

 

[Newsjunkiejen]

But looking down or going down either trail into a very steep canyon would have given a sense of how steep the climb up out of it would be, on either trail, a more visceral sense than an app. They may have hoped the switchbacks might make it feel easier, dunno. There is a review on AT about people who looked at how deep the canyon is and noped out before heading down, that was in the spring.

I know if I'm planning a hike, and one that is a loop, I will always try to plan it so that I start out on the uphill, so that I'm returning to the car at the end of the walk on a downhill.

I completely get that this isn't always possible though, especially in super remote locations where you don't have the opportunity to park at different areas along the route.

 

[Pseudonymph]

Or not held or ministered to because a parent was under the influence of heat or overcome by grief. I simply cannot imagine anything more horrible as a mother than finding my baby dead.[/]

Shock plus heat would not be a good combination.

 

[Rocky Mountain Hi]

I know if I'm planning a hike, and one that is a loop, I will always try to plan it so that I start out on the uphill, so that I'm returning to the car at the end of the walk on a downhill.

I completely get that this isn't always possible though, especially in super remote locations where you don't have the opportunity to park at different areas along the route.

There was no option on this one, to take the uphill part first. It wasn't a good choice of a hike for a hot day with a dog and baby; there's no way around that fact.

 

[al66pine]

Times/Order of Deaths? Disposition of Property?

Even if the ME could not determine a time of death, could they determine an approximate delta between TOD for different people, e.g., if Ellen died 5 hours after JG, or “some time after?” Such questions can become legally important when dealing with wills and intestate dispositions.

Also from @NSamuelle. "Sorry to reply to my own post; state law differs so I looked up CA law. In CA, the “survivorship period” is 120 hours, i.e., a person must outlive you by 120 hours in order to be an intestate (no will) beneficiary. So it’s inapplicable here. If they died intestate, their property would go to their parents."

@NSamuelle Yes, gen'ly the varying order of deaths may result in differing distributions, depending on estate planning done (or not done), whether the decedents died testate or intestate, and the way their properties were titled or registered.

Some assets may be titled or registered so they are not subject to probate, as described on the CA. Courts website:*
".... some ways that do not involve going to probate court.... some common examples:
If a particular asset (like a retirement plan, life insurance policy, or a bank account) already has a named beneficiary, that asset goes to the beneficiary (or beneficiaries, if there are more than one) without going to court....
Real estate sometimes can be transferred without court with a transfer-on-death deed (also called a beneficiary deed).
Property in living trusts can be transferred without going to court." bbm sbm

Whether Jonathon and Ellen both died testate or intestate, most or all of their assets may not necessarily be administered/distributed thru probate court, so may not be subject to the 120 hour “survivorship period.” For ex, if they held most of their assets in a living trust, then on their deaths, those trust assets would not go thru probate, but would be distributed per terms of the trust document. imo my2ct

Welcoming comment, clarification, correction, esp'ly from our legal professionals.

Someone like Jonathon developing software for years may have substantial holdings in employer stock, life ins. death benefit, and/or retirement a/c such as a 401k. Iirc Ellen was employed at a non-profit organization and was younger, so not likely to have accumulated similar corporate benefits. Didn't someone post that they also held residential rental properties in the state?

Sad, sad, sad for both of them and their adorable baby. RIP.
_________________________________________
* Wills, Estates, and Probate - probate_selfhelp

 

[Newsjunkiejen]

There was no option on this one, to take the uphill part first. It wasn't a good choice of a hike for a hot day with a dog and baby; there's no way around that fact.

Oh I totally get that. I believe the canyon drops down to the Merced river so impossible for them to have started from bottom to top instead of vice versa.

My comment was more me just sharing something that could help someone who's new to hiking if they were planning a hike. Sometimes the little things like that are often overlooked, but you never know when it could make all the difference.

 

[jonjon747]

For those who may want a closeup view of where they were found,

this image is Bing map 3D showing SL trail from the opposite view.
It looks to be satellite images taken around 2019 or 2020 (well after the july/2018 Ferguson fire)

SLreverseview


this one is SL trail from Google earth 3D right around the time Ferguson fire was contained.
As you can see, it's obviously burnt as charcoal black and not very pleasant looking but shows well where they were coming from.

SLfrontview

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

I know all about heat and babies. But I also know parents. I am one. If that baby was in danger in any way, and the parents were alert, she was coming out of the carrier to be held, comforted, cooled, resuscitated, etc.

In my opinion, it's likely that DID happen- down at the river. I believe the most likely motivation for heading up that 3 mile, 2000 foot climb to the safety of their truck was to get their baby out of danger. By that point the baby would have experienced several hours of temperatures far beyond the maximum recommended for babies, and I'm sure the parents were distraught and panicking. They did their best, but they died half way to the truck. Look up "heat stroke" to see what the their last minutes were like. By that point they were not capable of doing those things you suggest. The obvious way to keep cool in that situation is to use the river water. Immerse in it, soak your clothes and let evaporation work its magic. Stay in the shade, or in the water, ideally both. In an emergency like this, I wouldn't think twice about drinking it as necessary, just choosing the cleanest water. Either no one, or maybe just a few humans have died in the USA from toxic algae. I like those odds a lot better than those for heat stroke. Then wait for it to cool off, even until the next morning if necessary, then climb out. All this in my opinion, based on many years of hiking, leading hundreds of hikes, and experiencing the effects of heat, sun, and steep climbs. Oh yeah, and being a grandfather.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

For those who may want a closeup view of where they were found,

this image is Bing map 3D showing SL trail from the opposite view.
It looks to be satellite images taken around 2019 or 2020 (well after the july/2018 Ferguson fire)

SLreverseview


this one is SL trail from Google earth 3D right around the time Ferguson fire was contained.
As you can see, it's obviously burnt as charcoal black and not very pleasant looking but shows well where they were coming from.

SLfrontview

That's very good. Really shows the situation they faced, how barren and lifeless that trail is.