CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death remote hiking area, Aug 2021

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RickshawFan said:
That map seems to have been produced by the Chronicle. Are we certain that's where the car was parked? How do we know the family was doing a loop and not out-and-back?
Upthread, at least one poster said something about gates and parking. Where are the gates and parking areas on this map?
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I recall seeing photos of the gate that blocks vehicle traffic. I don’t fully understand the trail, but the SFC reporter said he made that map, with the suspected hike route, with the assistance of the Mariposa sheriff.

https://twitter.com/mgafni/status/1428907517019516928?s=20
 
whirrledpeas said:
There are some test results that can be done quickly, but with chain of custody and potential backlog, it is reasonable that they have not yet been released. Since this is a suspicious death scenario, they may not release any initial findings until the rest of the results come in.

There are many different types of reports and sampling that take place at the time of autopsy, based on the suspected cause. For example, a common thing to test in suspected homicides is bile/contents of stomach, but they do not generally test for that in suspected suicides. They are undoubtedly testing for absolutely everything that is known that fits in the possible realm of this case though, which could be another reason no initial findings have been released.
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RBBM

Respectfully, based on my experience (in my former province of Ontario) a sudden unexpected death is examined by the coroner’s office in the same way whether it’s a suspected suicide/homicide/or natural death. They do a complete examination during the autopsy, including stomach contents. Even if a suicide seems most likely.

ETA: “The inspection of the contents of the stomach must be part of every postmortem examination because it may provide qualitative information concerning the nature of the last meal and the presence of abnormal constituents.” Stomach contents and the time of death. Reexamination of a persistent question - PubMed
 
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I have read that they were found approx. 1 1/2 miles from the car, but, assuming they went around the loop and were on their way back to the car, is there any info. on how many miles the full loop is?
 
To me, the heat stroke possibility does not seem very likely.

Though the day was hot (97 Degrees) and the trail steep, it was not hiking advisory type hot relative to outdoor hiking performed by physically fit people.

As related by a triathelete member, heat stroke can impact even endurance athletes. Even still, the victims were not engaged in an endurance event and had only been out one day.

My guess is if acclimatized and generally fit, the victims could have either went back down to shade and water, or continued to the top (as to whether they could find immediate help there would be another matter).

In short, I think the most likely heat stroke scenario would be: One adult starts to falter ( I think babies do better than adults in extreme heat and cold). The other make moves the victim to the best shade. They then wait.

If the victim does not recover, the adult in better condition takes the baby and goes either back down the trail for water, or up the trail for help.

As given the overall conditions and fitness of the victims would seem to make dual heat stroke fatalities unlikely, the person seeking help eventually contacts other hikers or 4 wheelers at the top by the second day. Sadly, it is too late for the person left behind.
 
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Cryptic said:
To me, the heat stroke possibility does not seem very likely.

Though the day was hot (97 Degrees) and the trail steep, it was not hiking advisory type hot relative to outdoor hiking performed by physically fit people.

As related by a triathelete member, heat stroke can impact even endurance athletes. Even still, the victims were not engaged in an endurance event and had only been out one day.

My guess is if acclimatized and generally fit, the victims could have either went back down to shade and water, or continued to the top (as to whether they could find immediate help there would be another matter).

In short, I think the most likely heat stroke scenario would be: One adult starts to falter ( I think babies do better than adults in extreme heat and cold). The other make moves the victim to the best shade. They then wait.

If the victim does not recover, the adult in better condition takes the baby and goes either back down the trail for water, or up the trail for help.

As given the overall conditions and fitness of the victims would seem to make dual heat stroke fatalities unlikely, the person seeking help eventually contacts other hikers or 4 wheelers at the top by the second day. Sadly, it is too late for the person left behind.
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Someone who personally works in the area says the trail doesn’t have much in the way of shade. Maybe some 3-4' tall manzanita bushes if you're lucky, or a lone, sad looking pine tree if you're exceptionally lucky. Most of the shade in this area will come from rocky outcroppings; there's more of them than there are trees, (many of the trees being burnt from the fires) but there's still not many.

Also, SF Chronicles reports that it was 105-107 degrees that day, not 97.
 
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Cryptic said:
To me, the heat stroke possibility does not seem very likely.

Though the day was hot (97 Degrees) and the trail steep, it was not hiking advisory type hot relative to outdoor hiking performed by physically fit people.

As related by a triathelete member, heat stroke can impact even endurance athletes. Even still, the victims were not engaged in an endurance event and had only been out one day.

My guess is if acclimatized and generally fit, the victims could have either went back down to shade and water, or continued to the top (as to whether they could find immediate help there would be another matter).

In short, I think the most likely heat stroke scenario would be: One adult starts to falter ( I think babies do better than adults in extreme heat and cold). The other make moves the victim to the best shade. They then wait.

If the victim does not recover, the adult in better condition takes the baby and goes either back down the trail for water, or up the trail for help.

As given the overall conditions and fitness of the victims would seem to make dual heat stroke fatalities unlikely, the person seeking help eventually contacts other hikers or 4 wheelers at the top by the second day. Sadly, it is too late for the person left behind.
Click to expand...
I saw article saying it was 102 to 107 on that mountain that afternoon. That is VERY hot for a one year old.

I think it is incorrect to say that babies do better than adults in extreme heat or cold. It is the exact opposite. We have linked articles in this thread showing that babies and the elderly are much more vulnerable to heat and cold than adults are.

I think the baby became distressed while they were far into their hike. So they used most of their water trying to cool her down. They began moving quickly to try and get back to vehicle, which put them into heat exhaustion as well. There is very little shade on that mountain because of the recent fire.

And there was probably smoke in the air from the many current fires in the general area. So breathing would be impacted as they became more distressed.

I think their sweet baby probably passed at some point and they just fell apart. JMO
 
Cell phones! I wish that more information was provided to people that cell phones are absolutely useless hiking in many National Parks. (And many areas in Montana, South Dakota and North Dakota, Utah, Nevada) probably more...I know for a fact in Montana once you leave the main grid I-15/I-90 and you are away from town, cell phones, no bars. It is hit and miss.

I wonder if these folks were not used to hiking in places without cell service?

No signal. In Glacier and YNP, you practically have to be on the edge of the park for any bars at all.
 
2015 article
Dog dies on Russian River, tests positive for toxic algae

Sonoma County (Calif) public health officials are weighing the extraordinary step of urging people and their pets to avoid the Russian River after a dog that died moments after swimming in the water last Saturday preliminarily tested positive for a lethal toxin produced by blue-green algae.
 
katydid23 said:
I saw article saying it was 102 to 107 on that mountain that afternoon. That is VERY hot for a one year old.

I think it is incorrect to say that babies do better than adults in extreme heat or cold. It is the exact opposite. We have linked articles in this thread showing that babies and the elderly are much more vulnerable to heat and cold than adults are.

I think the baby became distressed while they were far into their hike. So they used most of their water trying to cool her down. They began moving quickly to try and get back to vehicle, which put them into heat exhaustion as well. There is very little shade on that mountain because of the recent fire.

And there was probably smoke in the air from the many current fires in the general area. So breathing would be impacted as they became more distressed.

I think their sweet baby probably passed at some point and they just fell apart. JMO
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The main issue I have, and I’ve thought of it in relationship to other cases, too: aren’t they going to be in denial? “Their baby can’t be dead, she’s just unconscious, and they need to get her to the ER, and she’ll be fine.” So instead of sitting down to grieve, I’d think they’d make every effort to get her back to the car. But I could visualize one adult, possibly the man, becoming ill from the heat. The woman stays with him, thinking that they’ll go on together as soon as he’s ‘rested and gotten better.’ Of course, he’s far beyond the stage where resting will help; the woman, suffering more and more from the heat, herself, decides that she must hurry up the hill to get phone reception, back to the car to get help, but collapses a short distance away. She doesn’t take her child with her because she knows that she couldn’t possibly go far enough to get help for them all, with that sort of a burden.

Just yesterday, the discussion here assumed that only the man had a phone. Today, the news reports are referring to ‘phones’ in the plural. If that’s true, yesterday’s argument that the woman couldn’t have been going to get help, or she’d have taken her husband’s phone—that argument falls apart.
 
wary said:
The main issue I have, and I’ve thought of it in relationship to other cases, too: aren’t they going to be in denial? “Their baby can’t be dead, she’s just unconscious, and they need to get her to the ER, and she’ll be fine.” So instead of sitting down to grieve, I’d think they’d make every effort to get her back to the car. But I could visualize one adult, possibly the man, becoming ill from the heat. The woman stays with him, thinking that they’ll go on together as soon as he’s ‘rested and gotten better.’ Of course, he’s far beyond the stage where resting will help; the woman, suffering more and more from the heat, herself, decides that she must hurry up the hill to get phone reception, back to the car to get help, but collapses a short distance away. She doesn’t take her child with her because she knows that she couldn’t possibly go far enough to get help for them all, with that sort of a burden.

Just yesterday, the discussion here assumed that only the man had a phone. Today, the news reports are referring to ‘phones’ in the plural. If that’s true, yesterday’s argument that the woman couldn’t have been going to get help, or she’d have taken her husband’s phone—that argument falls apart.
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It’s strange that the dog didn’t go with Ellen if she was indeed walking away from them and especially if he saw her collapse, unless the dog was already incapacitated at that point.
 
Has time of death been determined yet? This will be a key factor in determining if it was heat stroke or something else. If they were last confirmed alive 6:45 AM (posting a photo) and the Hites Cove Trail is only 6.5 miles, that's a pretty short day hike - closer to 3-4 hours instead of 8-9. It should not have been 100+ degrees at the time they were hiking if they went out at 7 AM.

Additionally, Jonathan and Ellen were burners - they went to Burningman. This leads me to believe they would have an understanding of heat stroke and the importance of safety and hydration in high heat situations.
 
katydid23 said:
I saw article saying it was 102 to 107 on that mountain that afternoon. That is VERY hot for a one year old.

I think it is incorrect to say that babies do better than adults in extreme heat or cold. It is the exact opposite. We have linked articles in this thread showing that babies and the elderly are much more vulnerable to heat and cold than adults are.

I think the baby became distressed while they were far into their hike. So they used most of their water trying to cool her down. They began moving quickly to try and get back to vehicle, which put them into heat exhaustion as well. There is very little shade on that mountain because of the recent fire.

And there was probably smoke in the air from the many current fires in the general area. So breathing would be impacted as they became more distressed.

I think their sweet baby probably passed at some point and they just fell apart. JMO
Click to expand...
Do you know the exact date the fire occurred?
 
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