GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #2

[PoirotryInMotion]

no new updates?

No. *sigh* :waiting:

 

[Jersey*Girl]

I do not believe that California has an actual law that I can find, but generally speaking, 12 and up can babysit, depending upon the circumstances. I think, in this case, it appears as though it would be quite acceptable for a 12 year old to be home alone during the day with an 8 year old.

I think I was 14 when I started babysitting, however I remember being left alone at the age of 9 (after my mom died). That's why I ask, bc I took a CPR course and was taught basic childcare skills. That's when I found out about the legalities of leaving a child in another minor's care...but that was many years ago (I'll be 47 this July) so the law could have changed, plus I live in NJ (which could quite possibly have different rules than CA). Thank you Duchess for your response.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

BBM - You never know:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/nyregion/07slay.html?ref=petitfamily&_r=0

"They were both serial burglars with drug habits, having racked up numerous convictions for stealing car keys and pocketbooks.

This time, they took something far more precious.

The men, the authorities say, had already strangled Dr. Petit’s wife, Jennifer Hawke-Petit, 48, and in short order would also kill the couple’s two daughters, Hayley, 17, and Michaela, 11. The elder suspect, Steven J. Hayes, 44, had poured gasoline on the girls and their mother, according to a lawyer and a law enforcement official involved in the case, in hopes of concealing DNA evidence of sexual assault. He had raped Ms. Hawke-Petit, and his partner, Joshua Komisarjevsky, 26, had sexually assaulted Michaela."

I remember people thinking the dad did it-that there was no way he could have escaped when the others lived.

Woah! Wild story from 2007...(which also involved hostage-taking and prolonged family contact in an attempt to get $15K from the bank account of a well-to-do doctor, it appears). Ugh, and such a tragic case, too.

There are exceptions to the norm, for sure.

 

[TheDuchess]

I think I was 14 when I started babysitting, however I remember being left alone at the age of 9 (after my mom died). That's why I ask, bc I took a CPR course and was taught basic childcare skills. That's when I found out about the legalities of leaving a child in another minor's care...but that was many years ago (I'll be 47 this July) so the law could have changed, plus I live in NJ (which could quite possibly have different rules than CA). Thank you Duchess for your response.

I leave my 12 year old home to watch his 10 year old brother and his 8 year old sister from time to time for short periods of time. Sure hope I'm not breaking the law! It's actually a nice passage to finally be able to leave the house to go out somewhere without all of them tagging along all the time. Makes grocery shopping so much simpler!

 

[katydid23]

Is there a minimum age in CA for a minor person to legally be able to babysit?

I am not sure if it is legal or not but I was under the impression that 12 yr olds could watch siblings at home, according to CPS standards. I used to work at an elementary school and middle schoolers used to wait after school to meet their younger sibs and walk them home, and babysit until parents came home, and CPS had no problem with that situation. [ as long as the older kids were reliable/responsible.]

 

[Cherry]

Things are starting to get convoluted for me in this case? I guess it's the timeline of the parents, the game, the sequence of calls etc. Has any one done a timeline yet?

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I was wondering about the neighbor saying that BF had blood on him (linked and quoted by others previously).

Unless I missed something, we've seen no reports as to whether or not the brother had blood on him. If he tried to help his sister, I presume he would have gotten bloody. Is it possible that his father then hugged him after arriving home, and that's where the blood on Dad came from?

:cow:

The neighbor in that account mentioned it seemed the imprint on his t-shirt was as though the dad had hugged or cradled L in his arms. Of course, that's her impression. No way of knowing more, for us in here. And haven't heard any word as to whether or not the boy had bloody clothing, though it'd be my first guess he'd freak out and not want to get near (different than a parent's response). JMO.
http://www.uniondemocrat.com/News/Local-News/Neighborhood-leery-after-Leila-Fowler-killing

 

[wwc02]

•Seems an intruder intent on burglary would likely hit the TV or electronics

Intruders taking on this much risk might have sought something of a higher value/weight ratio than a television. The FBI interest in the television and furniture may be aimed at investigating motive as much as aimed at collecting evidence. A botched kidnapping perhaps. Hopefully, the perpetrator(s) are in custody. Admittedly, highly speculative.

 

[Jersey*Girl]

I leave my 12 year old home to watch his 10 year old brother and his 8 year old sister from time to time for short periods of time. Sure hope I'm not breaking the law! It's actually a nice passage to finally be able to leave the house to go out somewhere without all of them tagging along all the time. Makes grocery shopping so much simpler!

I am not sure if it is legal or not but I was under the impression that 12 yr olds could watch siblings at home, according to CPS standards. I used to work at an elementary school and middle schoolers used to wait after school to meet their younger sibs and walk them home, and babysit until parents came home, and CPS had no problem with that situation. [ as long as the older kids were reliable/responsible.]

Awww, I feel bad... I wasn't asking about a minimum age law bc I think its wrong, as I don't imo bc I know many 12 y/os that are very responsible. I was only asking based on my experience and when I started babysitting. I just did a quick search and several states are 12, whereas some state above 12. I'd think it would be based on their maturity and how they'd handle an emergency situation. My son is in 5th grade, he just turned 11, and I literally can't tell you how many kids in his school are latch key. Several kids have been latch key since 2nd grade. There's a law about how many hours a minor under the age of 14 can be home alone (w/o an adult), so that paired with my babysitting experience made me wonder if there is a minimum age in CA.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Things are starting to get convoluted for me in this case? I guess it's the timeline of the parents, the game, the sequence of calls etc. Has any one done a timeline yet?

I've done a long one, with articles and new developments in the case--but the important one, the one for that Saturday, is pretty limited due to limited info. It's small, but here you go:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - ACTIVE SEARCH CA - Leila Fowler, 8, Fatally Stabbed in Valley Springs #2 --Manhunt Underway!

 

[Jersey*Girl]

Intruders taking on this much risk might have sought something of a higher value/weight ratio than a television. The FBI interest in the television and furniture may be aimed at investigating motive as much as aimed at collecting evidence. A botched kidnapping perhaps. Hopefully, the perpetrator(s) are in custody. Admittedly, highly speculative.

Did they say what room the TV was taken from?

 

[mom2four717]

Perhaps the TV was also used as a monitor for Internet access via a gaming system? Our wii has access to the wide open Internet. Another wee "box"'we have for Netflix and Hulu allows easy access to Facebook.

I hope for resolution in this case. As important as it is to me in PA, I can only imagine how important it is to Leila's Family and community.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Intruders taking on this much risk might have sought something of a higher value/weight ratio than a television. The FBI interest in the television and furniture may be aimed at investigating motive as much as aimed at collecting evidence. A botched kidnapping perhaps. Hopefully, the perpetrator(s) are in custody. Admittedly, highly speculative.

JMO, but I don't think your typical robber/burglar would even target this rental house unless he knew for sure there was something valuable in there--(and it doesn't appear he did, as nothing was reported stolen. Unless it was something the parents didn't want to report stolen, of course.) And if he knew that kind of inside info, seems he'd also know the # of people living there, and case the place more carefully before attempting to burgle in broad daylight on a Saturday afternoon when people are out mowing yards, riding bikes, etc. *Not to mention, the neighbor across the street out in his front yard with the wolf-dog at that time. A burglar would be much more apt to burgle during the weekdays if during daytime hours, when most occupants would be likely to be at work or at school. Also, with no getaway car in sight, it seems unlikely, in this particular case, that a robber would want to run through the woods carrying electronics. Just not a credible scenario, all in all, to me, that this was initially a burglary gone bad. (And LE seems to agree, which adds to my leanings, here.)

Botched kidnapping,...personally, I don't think so. He'd just have to hold the knife or other weapon to this little girl and escort her out. Like in the Northridge, CA case, or that one in Utah. Instead, he stabbed her 21 times. Most botched or interrupted kidnappers would just bolt, rather than stick around for that kind of overkill.

But yeah, I do think it was a crime of passion. :cow:

ETA: "County sheriff says the stabbing appears to have been intentional—and not part of a botched robbery or other crime"...

http://www.newser.com/story/167114/stabbing-of-calif-girl-8-looks-intentional-sheriff.html

Also: See also at: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/... usatoday-NewsTopStories (News - Top Stories)

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

JMO, but I don't think the your typical robber/burglar would target this rental house unless he knew for sure there was something valuable in there--(and it doesn't appear he did, as nothing was reported stolen. Unless it was something the parents didn't want to report stolen, of course.) And if he knew that kind of inside info, seems he'd also know the # of people living there, and case the place more carefully before attempting to burgle in broad daylight on a Saturday afternoon when people are out mowing yards, riding bikes, etc. A burglar would be much more apt to burgle during the weekdays if during daytime hours, when most occupants would be likely to be at work or at school. Also, with no getaway car in sight, it seems unlikely, in this particular case, that a robber would want to run through the woods carrying electronics. Just not a credible scenario, all in all, to me, that this was initially a burglary gone bad. (And LE seems to agree, which adds to my leanings, here.)

Botched kidnapping,...personally, I don't think so. He'd just have to hold the knife or other weapon to this little girl and escort her out. Like in the Northridge, CA case, or that one in Utah. Instead, he stabbed her 21 times. Most botched or interrupted kidnappers would just bolt, rather than stick around for that kind of overkill.

But yeah, I do think it was a crime of passion. :cow:

Does someone have more information on the car that was reported to the police during the time of the murder? It's the first I'm hearing about it, but that should offer some level of information since whoever called it in would have stated make, color etc.

Some questions I have, that I'm sure LE has been asking are:

Who were the previous tenants? Was Leila being harassed by anyone recently? Did family have any interactions with shady people? Was there any other trouble at their home that might be suspicious? Any sign of break in?

I have a lot more but I realize they won't get answered to the public yet.

As for babysitting, I was 10 and left home alone with my newborn brother and another brother that was 7. I think my parents just needed to 'get out.' But I was responsible and we lived in a tiny town in upstate NY. I just wasn't allowed to turn the stove on, until I was at least 11.

 

[wwc02]

I believe LE has ruled out burglary or robbery as intent/motive, though. There is no evidence of break-in or anything having been taken. <snip>

Perhaps something was sought/taken that would never be missed by the current occupants. This was suggested by the message you quoted. If the house was a rental, it might be relevant to know if it was furnished. Doubtful that a television was furnished but it would be helpful to know. Did someone, a handyman maybe, trusted by the occupants, do a little extra? A safety deposit box between the studs perhaps.

 

[believe09]

I was wondering about the neighbor saying that BF had blood on him (linked and quoted by others previously).

Unless I missed something, we've seen no reports as to whether or not the brother had blood on him. If he tried to help his sister, I presume he would have gotten bloody. Is it possible that his father then hugged him after arriving home, and that's where the blood on Dad came from?

:cow:

IIRC, the neighbor actually described the blood on his shirt as an outline of the little girl. Because obviously Dad had been holding her/hugging her. I will find the link...

ETA: LINK HERE

Lawson said a man who she believed to be Barney Fowler, Leila&#8217;s father, came to the edge of her driveway.
&#8220;He was white as a ghost,&#8221; she said. &#8220;He had blood on his shirt, her body imprint was on his shirt, like you could tell he was cradling that little girl.&#8221;
&#8220;He said, &#8216;Have you seen anything?&#8217; I said, &#8216;No.&#8217; I said, &#8216;Is she OK? Is she OK?&#8217;&#8221; Lawson recalled. &#8220;He said, &#8216;No. She&#8217;s not OK.&#8217;&#8221;

 

[believe09]

Perhaps something was sought/taken that would never be missed by the current occupants. This was suggested by the message you quoted. If the house was a rental, it might be relevant to know if it was furnished. Doubtful that a television was furnished but it would be helpful to know. Did someone, a handyman maybe, trusted by the occupants, do a little extra? A safety deposit box between the studs perhaps.

my thoughts strayed there as well. The room I would pick to demolish first would be the one that Leila was found in.

 

[wwc02]

I just wasn't allowed to turn the stove on, until I was at least 11.

You're kidding. I was serving my parents breakfast coffee in bed at eight years of age. That was my chore before leaving for the bus stop. Child labor laws were ignored by my parents.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Zuckerschnecke, the only questions you asked that I think I remember reading about are two of them; here is what MSM info I've got:

1) Investigators have looked into other "calls for service or emergency calls" from the Fowler house:

"The FBI has reviewed many aspects of the case and offered its resources, including sophisticated equipment for evidence collection, Hewitt said. Investigators are still searching Leila&#8217;s home for evidence.
Hewitt said investigators are also looking into whether there have been other calls for service or emergency calls from the Fowler residence."
http://www.uniondemocrat.com/News/Local-News/Suspects-ruled-out-in-slaying


2) MSM has reported that LE has said there were no "signs that the homicide happened" during the commission of a robbery or burglary. That I take to mean, no items stolen, and/or no signs of forced entry. Of course, in this neighborhood it's been said that people commonly left their doors unlocked. (But, JMO, I'd think if the Fowlers had something in the house that they knew was valuable, they'd have taken care to lock the house, anyway. But there was no sign of 'break in.')

www.uniondemocrat.com/News/Local-News/Hundreds-mourn

www.modbee.com/2013/04/29/2692480/police-guard-calif-school-during.html

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Perhaps something was sought/taken that would never be missed by the current occupants. This was suggested by the message you quoted. If the house was a rental, it might be relevant to know if it was furnished. Doubtful that a television was furnished but it would be helpful to know. Did someone, a handyman maybe, trusted by the occupants, do a little extra? A safety deposit box between the studs perhaps.

But nothing was evidently taken; no walls demolished. Foiled (discovered) robbery means robber flees, not that he sticks around to stab a little 8 yr old 21 times, running off to leave the babysitter to describe his height, weight, clothing, etc.

And if he successfully took the item, there would be no reason to kill anyone.