GUILTY CA - Leila Fowler, 8, murdered, 12yo charged, Valley Springs, 27 Apr 2013 - #4

[TheDuchess]

Hearing how the 15 year old in Utah who just killed his two adopted siblings was an honor student, in school sports and running marathons with the family, I can't say some kids are easy to read when they're able to kill. The father wants him to get help from mental problems, my question would be, then if you knew that, why was he left alone with kids?

Hearing the news lately you can't look at the age, the external involvement of the community or school, that's the scary part. Was there something going on in IF's head that noone knew how deeply he was troubled or capable of, if he's guilty? Were there so many kids it was overlooked or so much going on in family circumstances noone imagined this could be possible?

I hope they do have the evidence that he's guilty and not just he was the one in the home. I can look at my kids eyes and know when they're sick or when they were little if one wasn't being honest about taking that cookie. I can't imagine a parent not being able to read their child in something huge. Also how a child can be able to deal with everything that's going on with them, what they've seen or did and be able to still say they're innocent. I keep thinking about his demeanor in this last court hearing, he acted like this wasn't affecting him, strange.

BBM-In this case, the parents are saying he is innocent. So perhaps they see something we don't?

 

[TheDuchess]

IMO. The juvenile system does more harm than good, as demonstrated in this case, this child although guilty is being encouraged And supported to lie. Delaying treatment for a child that so desperately needs it if there is to be any hope of rehabilitation.

This case will drag on for two years... During which time he loses valuable time better spent. He needs treatment right now, not two years from now.

Parents know consequences should be immediate, not delayed indefinitely. So what is it these parents hope to accomplish? Are they merely satisfying their own denial?

All IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I must have missed the link where IF was found guilty. I realize you say IMO at the end of your post, but you seem to have information that he is, in fact guilty.

So you are saying the juvenile system encourages the kids to lie. Hmmm....it seems to me that both systems encourage people to defend themselves. If you say it encourages lying, then that kind of turns everything on its head, then doesn't it? At least as far as the system goes, right? I mean, if everyone who is accused denies it, they must be lying, right?

So are you saying that we should just get rid of the juvenile system as it is? Just, if a juvenile is accused, they shouldn't be allowed a defense? It seems like you feel the case is open and shut right? Why bother with 2 years of this clogging up the system and delaying counseling?

 

[winterrose]

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130529/A_NEWS/305290325

Defense attorney Mark Reichel said sentencing limitations represent another important distinction in the juvenile court system.

"The biggest difference is that he's not going to go to a prison setting," Reichel said. "If he was an adult, these kinds of charges could result in a very long prison sentence. Other than that, you have the same rules of evidence, the same burden of proof by the prosecutor, and all the same pretrial motions are available."

Reichel and co-defense attorney Steve Plesser have indicated they might file a motion to dismiss the charges, saying their client could be unfit to stand trial because of his age.

 

[winterrose]

On Monday night, Reichel said the answer is no.

"I don't think there are many circumstances where it is appropriate to put a 12-year-old on trial where there is a lot at stake," Reichel said. "You have to agree with me that we wouldn't want to try a 6-year-old. We wouldn't want to try an 8-year-old. At what point do we draw that line? We only try individuals who are competent enough to actively participate and understand what's going on, and, in all honesty, I don't think many 12-year-olds have that maturity."
______________
Reading between the lines, I guess he's not saying he's innocent, just he's young, not asking public help for finding another suspect, not speaking against LE's arrest and family isn't speaking out. The court hearings just seem a formality.

 

[Scottndianner]

Court appearance today @ 1:15

http://www.calaveras.courts.ca.gov/online-services/calendars/dept-1


* 3.* 1:15 PM Case: 13JW5445** MATTER OF ISIAH F.
*** Event: CONTINUED DETENTION-ORIGINAL 602 W&I

 

[menmo]

Snipped and BBM for space

Yes, well he also told his mom

Not to be rude, but Dad's girlfriend. Sorry but after seeing her FB post and after knowing that the dad has a 2 year old son with someone else I'm thinking she doesn't deserve the title of Mom. At least to me. PR is IF's mom at least and unless she's had her parental rights removed. (Not saying she has or will, just saying she is IF and LF's mom)

BBM-In this case, the parents are saying he is innocent. So perhaps they see something we don't?

I so want IF to be innocent. I want a lot of things for this family. I want the family as a whole, including PR, to get the help they need to be a strong, loving and responsible family. I want the best for all of them but sometimes love really is blind.

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130529/A_NEWS/305290325
"The biggest difference is that he's not going to go to a prison setting," Reichel said.

I really don't know but isn't the juvenile justice system, being locked down, like a prison only for kids?

ETA: For me having the title of Mom doesn't mean you are any less of an influence, love the child any less, or mean you don't take care of a child. There's also something special about being in the role of caretaker for a child or a special friend, there is a special bond there that happens sometimes, too. I just wish more people would realize you don't have to be the "mom" or the "dad" of any child to make a positive difference in their life.

MOO

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Snipped and BBM for space
Not to be rude, but Dad's girlfriend. Sorry but after seeing her FB post and after knowing that the dad has a 2 year old son with someone else I'm thinking she doesn't deserve the title of Mom. At least to me. PR is IF's mom at least and unless she's had her parental rights removed. (Not saying she has or will, just saying she is IF and LF's mom)

ETA: For me having the title of Mom doesn't mean you are any less of an influence, love the child any less, or mean you don't take care of a child. There's also something special about being in the role of caretaker for a child or a special friend, there is a special bond there that happens sometimes, too. I just wish more people would realize you don't have to be the "mom" or the "dad" of any child to make a positive difference in their life.

MOO

You're quite right, my blunder! And if I could still edit that post, I'd go back and change that to 'he told CW'--because I feel strongly about that, too. He was with his bio mom for at least 4x the length of time he was with his dad's g/f, and her saying off the bat that she wanted to be "considered the mom" doesn't make it so, especially in the mind of a boy who isn't getting to see his bio mom much, if at all. And it's a bit of a slap to the woman who bore him and fought a bitter battle for custodial rights. :cow:

 

[TheDuchess]

You're quite right, my blunder! And if I could still edit that post, I'd go back and change that to 'he told CW'--because I feel strongly about that, too. He was with his bio mom for at least 4x the length of time he was with his dad's g/f, and her saying off the bat that she wanted to be "considered the mom" doesn't make it so, especially in the mind of a boy who isn't getting to see his bio mom much, if at all. And it's a slap to the woman who bore him and fought a bitter battle for custodial rights. :cow:

To take this one step further, to be precise, CW never said she wanted to be considered IF's mother, just LF's mother. Not saying that she didn't want to be nor was she considered by IF to be "mom" but no one actually stated that she wanted to be considered IF's mom. FWIW

 

[Octopus' Garden]

I actually didn't hear him say that in the call. What was said in the 911 call was what Crystal told the dispatcher-she said "they said they are ok." Keep in mind that she is relaying what she is hearing from her daughter and her boyfriend who are actually on the call with IF. There could have likely been a lot of confusion during the call. For example: The boyfriend asked IF "are YOU ok?" This could mean you singular or plural. The boy could have thought it meant just him and responded "yes." Then the boyfriend said-"they're ok."

DoubleDog thank you to Duchess for making this point!

 

[blue22]

I have not heard this before. I wonder if it's accurate?

"The defense team has announced it will argue the minor is unfit to stand trial because of his age."

http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_133dae04-c878-11e2-8cca-0019bb2963f4.html

**Edited to remove minor's name. Sorry about that.

 

[TheDuchess]

I have not heard this before. I wonder if it's accurate?

"The defense team has announced it will argue I is unfit to stand trial because of his age."

http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_133dae04-c878-11e2-8cca-0019bb2963f4.html

I did see this elsewhere that they were considering it, but not that they necessarily intended it.

FYI-I deleted the full name of the minor in your post. You may want to go back and edit yours as well.

 

[tlcya]

To take this one step further, to be precise, CW never said she wanted to be considered IF's mother, just LF's mother. Not saying that she didn't want to be nor was she considered by IF to be "mom" but no one actually stated that she wanted to be considered IF's mom. FWIW

[video=youtube;uEWndBDRsbc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEWndBDRsbc&list=UUZdj-ugjab2U3xm25tT-IpA&index=34[/video]

Link to presser in which the LEO states he thinks CW would like to be considered/referred to as LF's mother. As you say, CW did not say that directly.

 

[mysteriew]

Snipped and BBM for space
Not to be rude, but Dad's girlfriend. Sorry but after seeing her FB post and after knowing that the dad has a 2 year old son with someone else I'm thinking she doesn't deserve the title of Mom. At least to me. PR is IF's mom at least and unless she's had her parental rights removed. (Not saying she has or will, just saying she is IF and LF's mom)


I so want IF to be innocent. I want a lot of things for this family. I want the family as a whole, including PR, to get the help they need to be a strong, loving and responsible family. I want the best for all of them but sometimes love really is blind.


I really don't know but isn't the juvenile justice system, being locked down, like a prison only for kids?

ETA: For me having the title of Mom doesn't mean you are any less of an influence, love the child any less, or mean you don't take care of a child. There's also something special about being in the role of caretaker for a child or a special friend, there is a special bond there that happens sometimes, too. I just wish more people would realize you don't have to be the "mom" or the "dad" of any child to make a positive difference in their life.

MOO

I can agree with much of what you say about Mom. My DD has a three year old and is not with the bio Dad. Bio Dad has a GF. GF talks to DD about GS, what he is doing, issues and how they are handling them. She makes suggestions and she listens to what works for us. She is good with him. But she never tries to supplant my DD. She will tell you DD is his Mom. In return both DD and I have told her and bio Dad how much we appreciate her being in GS's life.

I cannot see her ever telling anyone (esp media) that "she" wants to be considered his "Mom." Though we do consider her his "Mom" away from Mom.
(LOL we were at a fundraiser a while back and I was playing Bingo. The three of them came in and asked me if I would watch him for a minute. When I said no I got a lot of looks. Cause I said no there are three parents here, there should be no need for me to watch him. They laughed and went away.)
Point being, though she stands in for Mom, she doesn't try to replace Mom. And that is what I am seeing here. A GF (apparently a short time GF at that) seems to be trying to replace Mom. I don't know if that was her idea or the Dad's. But it could cause a lot of pain and confusion for the kids.

 

[winterrose]

I think it's pretty obvious with the lawyer trying to get the charges dismissed, because of age, there's enough evidence to convict him. He's had an opportunity to review all the evidence now and he's not saying IF is innocent anymore. He's just trying to get him off, because of his age.

 

[CountryGirl]

I have not heard this before. I wonder if it's accurate?

"The defense team has announced it will argue Isaiah is unfit to stand trial because of his age."

http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_133dae04-c878-11e2-8cca-0019bb2963f4.html

If that was the case, no juvenile would ever be charged or go to trial if they were 12.

 

[mysteriew]

If that was the case, no juvenile would ever be charged or go to trial if they were 12.

IMO that is a pretty common defense for a young minor. And some times it works. There are 12 year old's and there are 12 year olds. And they aren't always the same. They will try to prove that this 12 year old was emotionally and maybe intellectually immature. That he had problems with understanding intent, or the results of his actions.

 

[Kaliste]

IMO that is a pretty common defense for a young minor. And some times it works. There are 12 year old's and there are 12 year olds. And they aren't always the same. They will try to prove that this 12 year old was emotionally and maybe intellectually immature. That he had problems with understanding intent, or the results of his actions.

I have a what-if question someone might be able to answer (paging Gitana!):

WHAT IF: that defense worked? WHAT IF charges are dismissed due to his age or immaturity? Then what happens? If charges get dismissed he is as free as he was before correct? Would he just go back him with CW and BF? Back to school?

Just curious!

 

[mysteriew]

I have a what-if question someone might be able to answer (paging Gitana!):

WHAT IF: that defense worked? WHAT IF charges are dismissed due to his age or immaturity? Then what happens? If charges get dismissed he is as free as he was before correct? Would he just go back him with CW and BF? Back to school?

Just curious!

It depends. Not an attorney here.

But if he is determined too immature to stand trial, the judge could order him into counseling. Could be residential or outpatient.

Or if it goes to trial and the judge believes he didn't understand his actions, he could be determined "not guilty" due to his age, and yes he would go back to parents.

 

[Octopus' Garden]

I have not heard this before. I wonder if it's accurate?

"The defense team has announced it will argue Isaiah is unfit to stand trial because of his age."

http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_133dae04-c878-11e2-8cca-0019bb2963f4.html

The article is from today and I don't see any other press anywhere about this "announcement". Was it a private announcement made to the "wild-emotional- roller-coaster-ride" young Calaveras Enterprise reporter sensation? Was it announced via remote legal venue? Anybody know?

 

[winterrose]

The article is from today and I don't see any other press anywhere about this "announcement". Was it a private announcement made to the "wild-emotional- roller-coaster-ride" young Calaveras Enterprise reporter sensation? Was it announced via remote legal venue? Anybody know?

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130529/A_NEWS/305290325
This one I posted earlier today says the same thing...
Reichel and co-defense attorney Steve Plesser have indicated they might file a motion to dismiss the charges, saying their client could be unfit to stand trial because of his age.

We'll probably find out more in about an hour or so, but he's seen the evidence by now, so maybe he feels this is the only thing he can do.