CA - Massive fire at Oakland warehouse party, 36 dead, 2 Dec 2016 #2

[LinasK]

Yes, but the owner doesn't have to repair a warehouse up to residential standards.

No, but aren't warehouses still required to have sprinkler systems and fire extinguishers, even if they were built as far back as 1930? Seems like basic common sense fire safety. Also seems the owner -Chor Ng never set foot inside his/her property.

 

[LinasK]

it is entirely possible the tenants didn't throw that crap there (at least not all) international blvd is very bad area. it is not uncommon to see mattresses and sofas just thrown there. they charge an assload to haul them off, ppl are poor so they chuck them.

That may be true on the outside of the warehouse, but doesn't account for the pigpen of the inside- that's all on Derick and his tenants.

 

[MsMarple]

MM - thank you but I can't take credit for posting that photo, I just replied with quote cause I had zoomed in on some pix someone else posted and I took a closer look and noticed some things.

On the daily mail video link if you click the start button on lower left you can stop, start and pause. At least I could. When I clicked the link ON the video it didn't have that capability. Maybe you can watch again and report more. Hth. Also, I believe you are right about the fridge. I see it maybe at 253 or 255, two white appliances maybe? Thanks for everyone's insight.

Gitana1 words are not good enough to express my extreme sadness. Sending love and hugs to you and your brother, your family, and Jennifer ' s parents, friends and classmates. Anything at all to try and help I am available in the Midwest.

Went back and looked the amazing CARIIS is the original picture poster. Thank you.

Thanks for clarifying, and thanks to CARIIS! The problem I have with the video is if I pause it (either way) then it defaults to a screen showing pics of other DM videos. On YT I can pause and the screen freezes but not on DM. At least not on my laptop. I did do some print screens to see if I can untangle some of these areas - wow, what a mess of rooms and stuff!

As for the fridge I guess there's no guarantee that any appliance seen in that video is still in the building. Also, the suspected fridge could have been a recent addition, so I guess it's impossible to actually pinpoint specifics. Still, it's interesting to see the decline of the "artist spaces."

I've been looking at Mrs. Ion's FB and I have to say while I understand her dad is protective of her, all I see is another selfish, self-centered, clueless "taker" who basks in the glory of dedicated admirers, just like Derick I/A. Sorry dad. Take a look at her 2014 posts - very interesting. In one post from Feb. 2016 someone commented on a party invite (paraphrasing) that she might come if she thinks she can negotiate "those steps." Gosh, that made me so sad for some reason.

 

[LinasK]

I'd venture a guess that it doesn't not say that he was allowed to sublet. Most landlords frown on that. I've read that his landlord is out of the country. How true that is, I do not know.

It was only zoned for a warehouse, not residential, and certainly not for a rave club!! He was illegally subletting. He was NOT Ng's "property manager" as he's billed himself in the news. He was all about making as much money for himself as he could. Cash only- and he didn't use his name on the rental agreement. Rent money plus cover charges and charging bands for the use of the space. Putting on the shows was all up to them.

 

[wannabeasupersleuth]

lol we do our own repairs (replaced the sink disposer, both pumps in the toilets after a lovely 500 water bill from them running, among other things) and all that gets us is our newest lease was an increase of 200 the first year and another 200 the second. if you bug the landlord in this area, they price you out. the owner could get 3500 for my house rn if they got rid of us. we pay 2800. I don't even bring home that much. oh and most landlords require you to make 3x the rent and have excellent credit, neither of which we have.

cvaldez- I KNOW what you're going through. We pay $4k/month for a 2 bedroom house in SF. The house is gorgeous, but is severely neglected and has inadequate heat (plaster walls, no insulation, furnace red tagged by PGE). We try to not rock the boat with minor repairs as we fear the rent increase. We need the yard for our dogs. As you know, we're absolutely FREEZING this week...the Bay Area is a scary place to live right now..

 

[mom2four717]

It's been reported the warehouse was 10,000 sq feet and the rent was $5000
Per month.
50 cents per square foot???!!!
Even if the actual foot print of the building was 5000 sq feet it would only be a buck per square foot?
Is that typical pricing for a similar space in Fruitvale?
Was the owner just happy to rent the building at all?

 

[kaen]

I couldn't ever do that personally. I would relocate out of state if necessary. I don't get suffering for a town/state. This country is HUGE!!

Yes, America is a big country with lots of space. Unfortunately for gay or trans people, the size and opportunity of this country is not their first concern. They can be targets of violence and far less safe living in a town where there is housing but little tolerance. So, they wind up having to make an awful choice-----housing but potentially hated or no housing but living in a community that is welcoming. America is not a tolerant place for those who feel that they are on the margins.

I don’t pretend to have the answer. But, if I recall correctly, migrations of people to areas already settled don’t always work seamlessly and equitably. Many people of color found this out after World War 2 and at lots of points along the way.

Edited to add: The issue is not just for the gay/transgender community but also for those in low income brackets who may not have the money needed to pick up and go but the potential dangers of alienation and safety would be different depending on their race and ethnicity or economic level.

Like it or not, many gay and/or trans people live in fear for their lives. I wish that wasn’t the case. It should not be the case but it is.

 

[LinasK]

I have been looking for the answer to this, but haven’t found anything online yet. Has the city of Oakland given any money yet to the families of the victims? Funeral compensation or anything like that? Even a funeral without disposition of remains could be a low of about $3000 each.

I would guess eventually the city of Oakland will be on the hook for about $6 million per victim, or about $216 million (whether Oakland decides to pay it pre-emptively, or is sued for it.)

There is a lot of blame to go around in this situation.

I'm not aware of funeral compensation. Gitana needs that information, but things like travel expenses for the families, yes.

 

[flourish]

I couldn't ever do that personally. I would relocate out of state if necessary. I don't get suffering for a town/state. This country is HUGE!!

I'm likely way behind. However, I'm not sure why folks think it's an option for people to move? I'm well educated with a great job but still had to have help when I recently moved. Paying first month's rent, deposits, and utility hook up fees about left me with about $20 for groceries, cigarettes (I know) and toiletries etc for two weeks and that was with help from family and moving to a place with a pretty low cost of living. I would be homeless right now if my family hadn't been able to offer me loans. And I've been homeless before. It's super humiliating walking into work carrying all your clothes and stuff trying to pretend that's totally not what you're doing. Yes my situation was not this situation. However, moving is easier said than done. Also, moving can be very isolating. I don't know anyone in my new town except coworkers and I'm so glad my sister drives the hour to see me every Saturday so I can see a familiar comforting face. (I have the best siblings ever)

 

[human]

The landlord has no right to enter the property you rent. They can come once a year maybe? With an appointment.

Isn't is said somewhere that he told everyone to get rid of their living stuff when the landlord came so it would not look like anyone was living there?

They wanted to play their alternative more enlightened lifestyle. There are many people now who are paying for those choices.

 

[FindHG]

https://definitions.uslegal.com/s/slumlord/

 

[mom2four717]

I am holding you and yours quietly in the light, Gitana

 

[DexterMorgan]

He made them pay cash. Did he declare his income? I doubt it.

He tried to sue a woman in court for back rent and intimidation.

So he obviously acted as he owned the building or at least managed it.

Jmo.

So he was the spokesperson for the building and its residents.

So he is responsible as well as others.

But I'm surprised that most renters stayed away from the party that night.

 

[rsd1200]

That is disgusting as those with lower incomes probably have car issues. In MN, we paid $32 a month for recycling and once a month pick up. My kids pay $76 a month with weekly pickup and monthly recycling.

Furniture, etc is an extra price and you haul to the dump.

Garbage is one of my big concerns for many reasons. But for this case, the blight it causes is something that adds to the undesirability and unlivablity of a neighborhood.

It would be cheaper to simply have paid garbage for everyone via property taxes or some other means. Then there would not have to be the money spent on staff, paperwork to deal with it. And then maybe there would be time to address the death spaces

.
The cities have it built into their water bill. Rural areas, most times, no. I can't say it's disgusting b/c there's just no real monies for it at the local level here. The rural areas here have difficulty w/transportation just getting to a doctor many times. Especially for the elderly and very sick and/or poor.

I don't like garbage on the sides of the road, nor littering, either, but, just what little I've learned about the Oakland area, from reading about it, after this horrible tragedy, is that, like our region, it's got a lot of stuff going on besides garbage on the side of the street. There's a lot of juggling going on when your trying to weigh assistance to those in poverty, rising fentanyl deaths, and/or funds for a decent animal shelter, against some mattresses on the side of the road. There's usually folks who do clean up crews in the county a couple of times each year to get the mattresses and recliners or the county will come get them if someone calls.

 

[rsd1200]

In big cities, immigrants. In smaller areas, a variety of people. I know some teachers who are waitresses as it pays more than teaching, I know a guy with a degree from a prestigous college who is a truck driver.

Some people have given up lucrative jobs to have B and B's so they are cleaning toilets.

Some people LOVE to clean. They really do. Not me.

Not if they are priced out of the rent in the area.

 

[CARIIS]

This is a difficult post.It feels selfish

. Like I am saying if the same thing happened to another family system, it would be less.

It would not be. BUT, this has been horrid. There is both anger, frustration, and just profound sorrow.

I am going to do this.

Why, at the end of the day, did it have to turn out that Jennifer ends up like the last one. The longest family system to find an answer? The longest one?

The hardest one for them? We all have some connection here - but why could it not be on the first round of identification??

This feels so selfish, let it be what it is.

But I still wish , it did not turn out this way, sorry.

I am not saying it is "better" if this happened to some other family than ours- I am not.

But I cannot feel how messed up is this?


I hope I do not offend any of others who are in great anguish, but I got it out............


And yes I suppose it is selfish-- and I guess that is what it is- but that is how I feel

 

[MsMarple]

It's in the Dailymail photos in the article where they interviewed Shelley Mack. It's not exactly pallets, more like 2x4's.

I've been trying to figure out if maybe those stairs are the back stairs - the ones that would be blocked off during parties so extension cords could be run down them to the first floor. All the residents who have described the stairs have said the stairs were pallets stacked on top of each other and not really stairs. The steps in the DM pic looks like the kind of stairway that goes down to a basement or up to an attic - rough, but still evenly placed. Residents made a point of saying the steps were treacherous because of the different heights and the weird ramp with pegs.

I know it's not rational but I'm so dang angry at the stairs. I keep thinking that if they had been real stairs maybe a few more people would have made it down and out of the building. The survivor who posted his experience on Reddit was able to make his way down so I think more may have followed if the stairs were properly constructed.

 

[Rallibella]

It was only zoned for a warehouse, not residential, and certainly not for a rave club!! He was illegally subletting. He was NOT Ng's "property manager" as he's billed himself in the news. He was all about making as much money for himself as he could. Cash only- and he didn't use his name on the rental agreement. Rent money plus cover charges and charging bands for the use of the space. Putting on the shows was all up to them.

If the 2003 Station Fire is anything to use as an example, both the owner and the person responsible for the "event" (in this case DA because of what he had going on) will be charged.

 

[Spellbound]

@ 1:51, describes the stairwell as being a spiral that only one person at a time could access, single file

[video]https://youtu.be/37K51oLNIrU[/video]

 

[Rallibella]

The landlord has no right to enter the property you rent. They can come once a year maybe? With an appointment.

Isn't is said somewhere that he told everyone to get rid of their living stuff when the landlord came so it would not look like anyone was living there?

They wanted to play their alternative more enlightened lifestyle. There are many people now who are paying for those choices.

That depends on state law actually- some states require you do get preapproval BUT that's only for certain types of leases. Not sure a warehouse would fit in that. A residence would in CA.