CA - Nicole Lorraine Linton, 37, speeds through intersection kills 6, including pregnant woman in fiery crash, Los Angeles, 4 Aug. '22

[Marysmith]

To me it sounds more like a NL blaming others for her decisions... "I stopped my medication because the online therapist said I merely suffer from anxiety". The same way she blamed her deceased grandmother for possessing her, or her co-workers for acting weird, or her family for stealing from her. NL is a "blamer", imo.
It wouldn't surprise me if she sues Mercedes Benz next for their high-speed cars... or the Los Angeles Department of Transportation for malfunctioning traffic signal lights.

MOO JMO

I hear you.

 

[PatLaurel]

I understand. Not taking needed medications is her responsibility and her responsibility alone.

Exactly. And NL's lawyers know the "mental illness" card won't work in this case... hence now saying she suffered "an apparent lapse of consciousness". "Apparent" because this is something he can't prove, so it won't work either.
MOO JMO

 

[PrairieWind]

Exactly. And NL's lawyers know the "mental illness" card won't work in this case... hence now saying she suffered "an apparent lapse of consciousness". "Apparent" because this is something he can't prove, so it won't work either.
MOO JMO

Oh I think it could be a big factor. If her attorneys can produce some evidence to support the claims it could whittle away the intent element. Its not a get out of jail free card, but it could go a ways to getting manslaughter charges instead of 1st degree murder.

 

[PatLaurel]

Oh I think it could be a big factor. If her attorneys can produce some evidence to support the claims it could whittle away the intent element. Its not a get out of jail free card, but it could go a ways to getting manslaughter charges instead of 1st degree murder.

BBM
That's what I think NL's lawyers are trying to do, but the "lapse of consciousness" won't work, imo. First, they have no way to prove it. And second, they will have to explain what the black thing sticking out of the driver's window is. Because an unconscious person is not able to hold whatever thing outside a car window speeding at 100 mph.

MOO JMO

 

[PrairieWind]

BBM
That's what I think NL's lawyers are trying to do, but the "lapse of consciousness" won't work, imo. First, they have no way to prove it. And second, they will have to explain what the black thing sticking out of the driver's window is. Because an unconscious person is not able to hold whatever thing outside a car window speeding at 100 mph.

MOO JMO

Agree. I don't think there is any way she not conscious. I think they will eventually claim she was in a state where she just wasn't aware of what she was doing; her conscious self wasn't in control. I'm just guessing.

 

[mewmew]

How was Dr. William Winter able to diagnose NL with BPD in such a short period of time? Was it the fact she didn't recall the events that led to the accident? That is called retrograde amnesia, imo, and it doesn't mean she suffered a "lapse of consciousness".

RSBM.

Dr Winter didn’t make the diagnosis. She was previously diagnosed in 2018. She stopped her medication after a therapist told her she just had anxiety.

I was diagnosed as bipolar and put on medications. A few months later, I was told by a different doctor that I was misdiagnosed, and that I just had anxiety and should stop my bipolar medications….so I did. Just like NL did. I’m not necessarily trying to defend her, but when a doctor tells you to stop your medication, it’s not that unheard of to actually do it.

The only difference is, mine was a true misdiagnosis and I’m fine without the meds. NL obviously was not.

JMO/JME

 

[mewmew]

I understand. Not taking needed medications is her responsibility and her responsibility alone.

I posted about my experience with this above - when someone tells you to stop your medications though (like her therapist told her to), why is the blame fully on NL for stopping? She was told to stop them, so she did. Add in the fact that she already wasn’t mentally sound to begin with, and I don’t think it’s entirely fair to say she should’ve known well enough to ignore what the therapist said and trust her own judgment. MANY people with mental illness don’t take their medication properly or at all, and it’s not usually to be malicious, it’s because they’re mentally ill and don’t understand the possible consequences.

 

[PatLaurel]

RSBM.

Dr Winter didn’t make the diagnosis. She was previously diagnosed in 2018. She stopped her medication after a therapist told her she just had anxiety.

I was diagnosed as bipolar and put on medications. A few months later, I was told by a different doctor that I was misdiagnosed, and that I just had anxiety and should stop my bipolar medications….so I did. Just like NL did. I’m not necessarily trying to defend her, but when a doctor tells you to stop your medication, it’s not that unheard of to actually do it.

The only difference is, mine was a true misdiagnosis and I’m fine without the meds. NL obviously was not.

JMO/JME

BBM

According to the article: "Winter wrote that Linton has bipolar disorder and suffered an "apparent lapse of consciousness" at the time of the crash, according to the heavily redacted medical records."

So, if he didn't make the diagnosis, it was NL who told Dr. Winter she "has bipolar disorder" then? If she did, this only worsens her case. She was aware of her mental issues, and yet she decided to stop her medication, knowing she was a threat to the public and herself.
And now, the family and lawyers say "she was in the throes of a frightening mental health crisis in the days, hours and minutes before the crash"? And the family did nothing to help her?
IMO these are all excuses to gain sympathy and reasonable doubt.

I'm sorry about your misdiagnosis and I'm glad you are doing fine without the meds! X


MOO JMO

 

[mewmew]

BBM

According to the article: "Winter wrote that Linton has bipolar disorder and suffered an "apparent lapse of consciousness" at the time of the crash, according to the heavily redacted medical records."

So, if he didn't make the diagnosis, it was NL who told Dr. Winter she "has bipolar disorder" then? If she did, this only worsens her case. She was aware of her mental issues, and yet she decided to stop her medication, knowing she was a threat to the public and herself.
And now, the family and lawyers say "she was in the throes of a frightening mental health crisis in the days, hours and minutes before the crash"? And the family did nothing to help her?
IMO these are all excuses to gain sympathy and reasonable doubt.

I'm sorry about your misdiagnosis and I'm glad you are doing fine without the meds! X


MOO JMO

I’m thinking he was probably able to see her medical records. Most healthcare systems are connected now thanks to electronic medical records.

I agree it’s very concerning that family didn’t do more, but it sounds like mom is out of the country and sister is out of the state, so maybe there wasn’t much they could do.

Thank you by the way!!!

JMO

 

[PatLaurel]

I’m thinking he was probably able to see her medical records. Most healthcare systems are connected now thanks to electronic medical records.

I agree it’s very concerning that family didn’t do more, but it sounds like mom is out of the country and sister is out of the state, so maybe there wasn’t much they could do.

Thank you by the way!!!

JMO

BBM

It makes me even more suspicious about the "frightening mental health crisis in the days, hours and minutes before the crash" statement. A welfare check is only a phone call away.

MOO JMO

 

[PrairieWind]

I posted about my experience with this above - when someone tells you to stop your medications though (like her therapist told her to), why is the blame fully on NL for stopping? She was told to stop them, so she did. Add in the fact that she already wasn’t mentally sound to begin with, and I don’t think it’s entirely fair to say she should’ve known well enough to ignore what the therapist said and trust her own judgment. MANY people with mental illness don’t take their medication properly or at all, and it’s not usually to be malicious, it’s because they’re mentally ill and don’t understand the possible consequences.

As far as I have seen, she claimed the therapist said she had anxiety. I haven't seen a claim that the therapist told her to stop her meds. Stopping those types of medications cold turkey can be extremely dangerous. So I would be surprised if a therapist (who probably shouldn't be making those decisions anyway) would tell her to stop immediately. I wonder if she just made that decision herself.
Certainly this Dr. Winter would have had access to her records and seen the prior BP diagnosis. I don't have much experience with BP so I can't say if this is behavior that is associated with that or not. I am certain that there is enough question now that the Court will order an evaluation for her.

 

[Charlot123]

How was Dr. William Winter able to diagnose NL with BPD in such a short period of time? Was it the fact she didn't recall the events that led to the accident? That is called retrograde amnesia, imo, and it doesn't mean she suffered a "lapse of consciousness".

Quoting NL's sister, Kimberly: “Nicole is about saving lives and she always has both empathy and sympathy for any life that’s loss and the family no matter how many time one can see that sort of thing in that field,”. A very different Nicole Linton than the one we saw in court, who cried when denied bail but didn't shed a tear for the 6 innocent lives she took. NL remained emotionless, listening to the prosecutor.

I'm not a doctor but, during those 16 minutes in court and reading all these articles, I believe NL also has the traits of a sociopath. MOO based on personal experience with sociopaths.


I don't want to offend anyone but, I have zero sympathy for Nicole Linton. MOO JMO

I don’t believe he diagnosed her with BPD, or am I missing something in the article? He said, bipolar disorder. Even if NL had certain personality traits, mania is such an acute condition, that it would obscure whatever personality disorder the person might have.
We can only assume and guess what NL had, but neither of us saw her. Perhaps, the stories of her relatives and the diagnoses of the providers treating her during prior mental health crises, as well as clinical evaluation of Dr. Winter, might be something to stem from. They saw her, we didn’t. JMO. I might be wrong.

Since the defense is clearly going to be “insanity plea”, which means that “the defendant is not responsible for their actions due to an episodic or persistent psychiatric disease at the time of the criminal act”, but the same defendant worked well in the ICU 30 minutes prior to this horrific accident, it will be an interesting case. I am ambivalent about the outcome.

Mostly, it becomes the issue of: “how much is a person with mental illness that is serious, but treatable in our time, a medical professional, with closer access to specialists, given that her condition is amenable to treatment with medications, responsible for keeping herself sane?”

What comes to my mind is epilepsy, where a patient with established diagnosis, is supposed to voluntarily forfeit their driving privileges, until they are seizure-free for six months. This clause, too, has many “ifs”. “If” they honestly stop driving; “if” they are seizure-free, “if” they are compliant with reports and do not lie to their doctor. And seizures might still happen, but apparently, this proviso - 6 months of being seizure-free - serves well to reduce public risk.

So what exists, or should exist, to reduce public risk of people with bipolar one disorder? Given that people might be exceptionally high-functioning, but end up like NL?

 

[mewmew]

As far as I have seen, she claimed the therapist said she had anxiety. I haven't seen a claim that the therapist told her to stop her meds. Stopping those types of medications cold turkey can be extremely dangerous. So I would be surprised if a therapist (who probably shouldn't be making those decisions anyway) would tell her to stop immediately. I wonder if she just made that decision herself.
Certainly this Dr. Winter would have had access to her records and seen the prior BP diagnosis. I don't have much experience with BP so I can't say if this is behavior that is associated with that or not. I am certain that there is enough question now that the Court will order an evaluation for her.

That’s true, it hasn’t been explicitly stated that she was told to stop her meds. But personally I wouldn’t be that surprised. An actual MD had me stop mine cold turkey, so it’s not unheard of. I’m sure we will find out!

 

[mewmew]

BBM

It makes me even more suspicious about the "frightening mental health crisis in the days, hours and minutes before the crash" statement. A welfare check is only a phone call away.

MOO JMO

True, but NL wasn’t just sitting stationary at home where cops could come check on her. Who knows, maybe family did call, and maybe cops did come, but she wasn’t at home.

Idk. I just have trouble believing that she acted the way she did for years and had herself involuntarily committed on the off-chance that maybe some day if she got in trouble, she could use her past behavior as an insanity plea. People don’t act like that for no reason. Mental illness is often faked in court cases, but in this situation I personally believe, based off what I know, that her mental illness is quite real.

All JMO

(And thanks for the good discussion; it’s so nice to have cordial conversations with an internet stranger even when we have differing thoughts!!)

 

[PrairieWind]

True, but NL wasn’t just sitting stationary at home where cops could come check on her. Who knows, maybe family did call, and maybe cops did come, but she wasn’t at home.

Idk. I just have trouble believing that she acted the way she did for years and had herself involuntarily committed on the off-chance that maybe some day if she got in trouble, she could use her past behavior as an insanity plea. People don’t act like that for no reason. Mental illness is often faked in court cases, but in this situation I personally believe, based off what I know, that her mental illness is quite real.

All JMO

(And thanks for the good discussion; it’s so nice to have cordial conversations with an internet stranger even when we have differing thoughts!!)

I agree. Her history, diagnosis and previously being committed would indicate her mental health issues are very real. Did they play a significant roll in the crash? We will see. But I think her attorneys have at least gotten it teed up early.

 

[Charlot123]

As far as I have seen, she claimed the therapist said she had anxiety. I haven't seen a claim that the therapist told her to stop her meds. Stopping those types of medications cold turkey can be extremely dangerous. So I would be surprised if a therapist (who probably shouldn't be making those decisions anyway) would tell her to stop immediately. I wonder if she just made that decision herself.
Certainly this Dr. Winter would have had access to her records and seen the prior BP diagnosis. I don't have much experience with BP so I can't say if this is behavior that is associated with that or not. I am certain that there is enough question now that the Court will order an evaluation for her.

JMO - there are many good medications to treat mental illness, drug companies are competing about meds with fewer side effects, but in general, they are good and variable. So it just comes to taking them. But I can imagine that NL, a smart, fast, accomplished young woman, who saw the therapist online, looked so well, that the therapist who never saw how NL could be off meds - could say, “are you positive it is bipolar? You don’t look bipolar at all”. It is not an uncommon mistake. (The same as seeing someone with MS today and saying, “oh, I’d never say”, but the person is on Copaxone, and without it, they’d be paralyzed. Only no one will probably recommend to get off Copaxone, although I did see healers telling people with autoimmune conditions to get off “horrible” drugs).

But here is the difference between some therapist and NL. A therapist has no medical background. NL has a nurse’s license, works in ICU, and should know better than stop meds.

 

[PatLaurel]

I don’t believe he diagnosed her with BPD, or am I missing something in the article? He said, bipolar disorder.

You didn't miss anything. I mistakenly wrote BPD instead of Bipolar Disorder, and didn't notice until you mentioned it... My mind was somewhere else. My apologies.

MOO JMO

 

[Tower]

I don’t believe he diagnosed her with BPD, or am I missing something in the article? He said, bipolar disorder. Even if NL had certain personality traits, mania is such an acute condition, that it would obscure whatever personality disorder the person might have.
We can only assume and guess what NL had, but neither of us saw her. Perhaps, the stories of her relatives and the diagnoses of the providers treating her during prior mental health crises, as well as clinical evaluation of Dr. Winter, might be something to stem from. They saw her, we didn’t. JMO. I might be wrong.

Since the defense is clearly going to be “insanity plea”, which means that “the defendant is not responsible for their actions due to an episodic or persistent psychiatric disease at the time of the criminal act”, but the same defendant worked well in the ICU 30 minutes prior to this horrific accident, it will be an interesting case. I am ambivalent about the outcome.

Mostly, it becomes the issue of: “how much is a person with mental illness that is serious, but treatable in our time, a medical professional, with closer access to specialists, given that her condition is amenable to treatment with medications, responsible for keeping herself sane?”

What comes to my mind is epilepsy, where a patient with established diagnosis, is supposed to voluntarily forfeit their driving privileges, until they are seizure-free for six months. This clause, too, has many “ifs”. “If” they honestly stop driving; “if” they are seizure-free, “if” they are compliant with reports and do not lie to their doctor. And seizures might still happen, but apparently, this proviso - 6 months of being seizure-free - serves well to reduce public risk.

So what exists, or should exist, to reduce public risk of people with bipolar one disorder? Given that people might be exceptionally high-functioning, but end up like NL?

Regarding epilepsy and psychiatric disorders, a physician can file with the DMV in Texas and California (not sure about all US states, but those two are relevant to this case) to immediately revoke a driver’s license. It can be reinstated with medical clearance. So it’s not always voluntary.

I don’t believe any psychiatrist treating NL would suspend or revoke her license based on what we know of her psychiatric history, but the legal system could have revoked it due to 3 car accidents in which she was at fault (by her attorney’s report).

From all of what I’ve read here and in other MSM sources, no one thought she was dangerous enough to revoke her license before this happened, but both her driver’s and nursing licenses could have been involuntarily revoked, if her actions were deemed dangerous enough.

 

[Charlot123]

You didn't miss anything. I mistakenly wrote BPD instead of Bipolar Disorder, and didn't notice until you mentioned it... My mind was somewhere else. My apologies.

MOO JMO

That is OK, BPD is also a common diagnosis

 

[caradana]

I believe she is bipolar.
I believe she is borderline.
I believe she went off her meds because someone online told her what she wanted to hear.
I believe she liked a drink, in certain circumstances.
I believe she liked recreational drugs, in certain circumstances.
I believe she picked awful men, with alarming consistency!
I believe she was probably a pretty decent nurse!
I believe she had family and friends who love her but were aware of fragility,
I believe they are fearful of liability now.
I believe her friends are not all that surprised that this happened.

I believe society is best off with her making license plates and managing the prison law library for forever. She is not able or willing to control her mental illness. Better that taxpayers take the blow of feeding her three squares than she’s out with car keys.

My $0.02.