CA - Off Duty Police Officer shoots man and parents after altercation in Costco, Corona, June 2019

[Blondie in Spokane]

Yes. At that point, was he able to simply hold the man at gunpoint? Instead of coming up shooting?

Yes, you would think holding the man at gunpoint would have been the off duty cop’s first reaction. Not to start shooting.

I don’t know why this case has me so riled up today.

 

[EGirl]

When people carry, they have a heightened sense of danger. And more anxiety in general, IMO.

I carry and I find quite the opposite to be true. I'm trained and have been around fire arms my entire life. I feel less danger and anxiety when I know I can defend myself.

And regardless of the whole story here, there was no reason to shoot multiple times if the parents and son weren't in the act of attacking him while all bullets were being fired. You stop the threat...... you don't go on a shooting spree. JMO

 

[gitana1]

So a witness says he STOOD UP and started shooting 6-7 shots.

That does not match the "narrative" that the lawyer has put out.

It certainly doesn't portray the "fight for his life" that his lawyer and the police were earlier trying to tell us happened:

“He fell pretty hard because I heard a pretty big thump on the ground,” Ms. Bawit said. “He looked like he had a heart attack.”

Ms. Bawit said she initially went to help the officer, but retreated as the altercation escalated.

“He stood up by himself. He pulled out his handgun and starts triggering five to seven shots,” Ms. Bawit said, adding that she was within 10 feet of the men and then took cover. “I was hiding in between the meat aisle, behind the freezer section. I thought I was going to be dead, too.”

I guess we'll see what the video says. I can only imagine that the officer and his baby were on the ground and a huge man was coming at them in a menacing manner. But, that's just in my imagination at this point.

So now we know: a) He wasn't in a "fight for his life" when he "came to" and got up, un-holstered his weapon and began firing, and; b) He wasn't on the ground with his baby in his arms or nearby as a man came at him. He was able to regain consciousness (if he ever was actually unconscious to begin with), stand up on his own, take his weapon out and fire it several times.

Still reading/catching up. If another parent was there- that would eliminate the only protection of the child thoughts I had. Sometimes I think police officers/people with guns panic when someone is coming at them/in the act of overpowering them because they fear the gun will be taken from them and used against them.

That's a good point. If the man was close enough to him to grab for his weapon I can see how that would be a real fear. Enough to shoot off 6-7 bullets? I don;t know.

First off, I truly hope there’s some surveillance video of this....

Secondly, it did occur to me that if what the off duty police officer’s lawyer said today (that his client had been struck in the back of the head prior to the shooting) is true, it could have ‘triggered’ him to react in a way he normally wouldn’t. Possible context: days earlier, another off duty LA area police officer was waiting for food at the counter of a fast food restaurant when a man approached from behind and shot him in the head.

There’s got to be more to this tragedy than what meets the eye at this point...

That's also a good point to make. I think we would all do well to walk a mile.

While I am firmly against abuse of power, corruption, cover ups, police brutality, etc., to actually be an officer is dangerous and has to be very scary and vulnerable at times. That was a good find. If the knowledge that a fellow officer had just been shot in the head as he stood there off-duty trying to get food, being hit in the back of the head as he's doing the same thing, and with his wife and small infant in tow, could have indeed triggered panic.

 

[Wagtales10]

Maybe the officer comes to, after being knocked out, with the man and his parents on him. It’s possible the parents were trying to control their son. We just don’t know.

Literally no one has stated that. Not LE, not MSM, not witnesses not the family.
Not one thing has ever said the parents were "on him"

BUT it HAS been reported by witnesses that the man got up and started shooting 6-7 shots.

 

[gitana1]

I carry and I find quite the opposite to be true. I'm trained and have been around fire arms my entire life. I feel less danger and anxiety when I know I can defend myself.

And regardless of the whole story here, there was no reason to shoot multiple times if the parents and son weren't in the act of attacking him while all bullets were being fired. You stop the threat...... you don't go on a shooting spree. JMO

I don't think he was purposefully shooting the parents. I have a feeling they got in the way trying to protect their son.

 

[Wagtales10]

And in between those two extremes, there is a lot of middle ground:

- How hard was the man shoved to the ground? Was he debilitated by the impact?
- Was say, the "gentle giant" advancing towards him to continue the attack?
- Does the man have a child with him who might also be subject to an attack?
- Was the attacker with mental problems acting erratic to the extent that he may also attack the child?

One witness stated that the officer was shoved to the ground extremely hard and the officer did have a child with him. Though those facts probably don't justify firing at all three people, and may not even justify firing at the attacker, those apparent facts also demonstrate that the use of lethal force did not occur in a vacuam and with any potential justification.

Dont leave out the same witness said the cop GOT UP and while the Father was trying to explain his sons condition, 6-7 shots were shot.
That is very important and shouldnt be left out.

 

[gitana1]

Maybe the officer comes to, after being knocked out, with the man and his parents on him. It’s possible the parents were trying to control their son. We just don’t know.

Nope. We do know. He stood up on his own, took out his gun and began firing.

 

[Cryptic]

I agree. IMHO the **** cop had a cowboy wild west mindset and BECAUSE he's a cop he felt he has the excuse to go to gun first. ANY normal citizen who did this would have been locked up immediatly, drug tested and identity and mug shot released.

I don't know. There are plenty of examples of normal citizens being given the initial benefit of the doubt if they can prove they were attacked.

In this case, the officer was not only attacked, but knocked to the ground hard. Though this may not justify lethal force, there is evidence that the use of lethal force might potentially be justified. Therefore, it is common practice to release the individual while the investigation continues.

 

[Cryptic]

Dont leave out the same witness said the cop GOT UP and while the Father was trying to explain his sons condition, 6-7 shots were shot.
That is very important and shouldnt be left out.

The fact that the father was trying to explain his son's condition does not mean that the son was not continuing to advance towards the officer or that the son had no demonstrated inclination to attack the child. Nor does it establish that the officer was not debilitated by the shove to the ground.

Rather, more detailed testimony is needed from the witness and footage. At the end of the day, the fact that the deceased had mental problems neither negates the self defense right of the officer anymore than being shoved to the ground automatically justifies lethal force (and especially against three people).

 

[Wagtales10]

I don't know. There are plenty of examples of normal citizens being given the initial benefit of the doubt if they can prove they were attacked.

In this case, the officer was not only attacked, but knocked to the ground hard. Though this may not justify lethal force, there is evidence that the use of lethal force might potentially be justified. Therefore, it is common practice to release the individual while the investigation continues.

I respectfully disagree. Anyone who fires 6-7 shots in a public place that isnt a cop would be taken in and investigated. Not released immediately.

 

[gitana1]

I don't know. There are plenty of examples of normal citizens being given the initial benefit of the doubt if they can prove they were attacked.

In this case, the officer was not only attacked, but knocked to the ground hard. Though this may not justify lethal force, there is evidence that the use of lethal force might potentially be justified. Therefore, it is common practice to release the individual while the investigation continues.

When a person dies from a civilian shooting, and there's tape of it, the civilian may be released upon review but typically not until they've been arrested and processed at least.

 

[Wagtales10]

The fact that the father was trying to explain his son's condition does not mean that the son was not continuing to advance towards the officer or that the son had no demonstrated inclination to attack the child. Nor does it establish that the officer was not debilitated by the shove to the ground.

It establishes the cop didnt have a reasonable threat of lethal violence against him IMO. French was not on top of him, he wasnt slamming something on him, he didnt have a weapon.

 

[jjenny]

And in between those two extremes, there is a lot of middle ground:

- How hard was the man shoved to the ground? Was he debilitated by the impact?
- Was say, the "gentle giant" advancing towards him to continue the attack?
- Does the man have a child with him who might also be subject to an attack?
- Was the attacker with mental problems acting erratic to the extent that he may also attack the child?

One witness stated that the officer was shoved to the ground extremely hard and the officer did have a child with him. Though those facts probably don't justify firing at all three people, and may not even justify firing at the attacker, those apparent facts also demonstrate that the use of lethal force did not occur in a vacuam and with any potential justification.

Witness didn't say she saw him being shoved to the ground extremely hard. She said she saw him fall, she believed he was having a heart attack.

 

[Cryptic]

Witness didn't say she saw him being shoved to the ground extremely hard. She said she saw him fall, she believed he was having a heart attack.

OK, she said "pretty hard" and not extremely hard. At the same time, he fell because he was shoved.

"He fell pretty hard because I heard a pretty big thump on the ground,” Ms. Bawit said. “He looked like he had a heart attack.”

 

[jjenny]

OK, she said "pretty hard" and not extremely hard. At the same time, he fell because he was shoved.

"He fell pretty hard because I heard a pretty big thump on the ground,” Ms. Bawit said. “He looked like he had a heart attack.”

She saw him fall, she didn't see him being shoved. That's a big difference.

 

[Cryptic]

She saw him fell, she didn't see him being shoved. That's a big difference.

Have the parents claimed that the police officer was never shoved to the ground? If the officer was never attacked by the deceased, one would think this fact needs to be raised quickly.

 

[jjenny]

The fact that the father was trying to explain his son's condition does not mean that the son was not continuing to advance towards the officer or that the son had no demonstrated inclination to attack the child. Nor does it establish that the officer was not debilitated by the shove to the ground.

Rather, more detailed testimony is needed from the witness and footage. At the end of the day, the fact that the deceased had mental problems neither negates the self defense right of the officer anymore than being shoved to the ground automatically justifies lethal force (and especially against three people).

Or the son could have been eating the darn teriyaki chicken samples for all we know. Nobody so far reported that son was doing anything threatening after he reportedly shoved or pushed the cop.

 

[jjenny]

Have the parents contested that the police officer was shoved to the ground?

They don't seem to be in a position to contest anything, considering they are in critical condition and mother is in such bad shape she might not survive.

 

[Wagtales10]

Have the parents claimed that the police officer was shoved to the ground? If the officer was never attacked by the deceased, one would think this fact needs to be raised quickly.

That is the narrative given by the cops lawyer, days after the murder and attempted murders.
Witness statements do not corroborate anything the cops lawyers claim.

 

[Keefer]

Didn’t they claim that the shooter was knocked out? I don’t know how anyone just coming to could assess the situation well enough to see that they were in danger of imminent death or grave bodily harm, especially if no one else was armed with a weapon.