CA - Off Duty Police Officer shoots man and parents after altercation in Costco, Corona, June 2019

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RANCH said:
If French reached into his pocket, quickly pulled something out and pointed it at the officer, he may have justifiably feared for his life and fired his weapon in self defense. JMO
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At least I was "guessing" based on available information. As far as I know, nobody reported anything of the sort you are speculating about.
 
Reasonable & Just said:
This is just speculation on your part, correct? I didn't see an indication of this in any reports, but I may have missed something.
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I used the the word "if" in my post.

I was asked for an example of what would be a situation that would allow for the officer to fire his weapon in self defense. That's all my post was. It's not a factual statement of what actually happened.
 
jjenny said:
So it's o'key to speculate without any basis around here? At least I was "guessing" based on available information. As far as I know, nobody reported anything of the sort you are suggesting.
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Why can't I "guess" or speculate on a possible scenario?

I'm not saying it happened and I'm not using it to conclude that the officer acted legally in self defense. I'm on the fence in this case.
 
RANCH said:
Why can't I "guess" or speculate on a possible scenario?

I'm not saying it happened and I'm not using it to conclude that the officer acted legally in self defense. I'm on the fence in this case.
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I would like to see something that actually is a rational defense for firing a gun, shooting a man, and his parents, in response to being pushed, and falling on the ground.
 
mickey2942 said:
If this had been a car accident, and Mr. French had hit SS's car, with his wife and child in the car, potentially harming his family, by your "logic", it would have been an acceptable response to get out of the car, and shoot Mr. French and his parents for endangering SS's family.

I believe that SS's response to being shoved, pushed, whatever was a relex of anger and rage.
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I hope we never find out, but I wondered about the legal aspects of this hypothetical scenario: Person fires 6-7 "self-defense/baby defense" shots in Costco. Someone nearby with their baby and their gun is frightened for their lives, and fires back 6-7 shots in original shooter's direction, and original shooter's child is harmed anyway as collateral damage. Would the original shooter be okay with no legal consequences for the person who fired back, because, hey, we're all armed and terrified here?

Where on earth does any of this end? I wish this was me being ridiculous, but obviously the odds of this increases whenever you have a lot of people in a given area.

I think we all believe in the right to self-defense, and I have no issue with legally owned firearms in hands of trained, stable people. I just can't get past the number of shots fired in this particular setting and circumstance (as you can tell) :(
 
Reasonable & Just said:
I hope we never find out, but I wondered about the legal aspects of this hypothetical scenario: Person fires 6-7 "self-defense/baby defense" shots in Costco. Someone nearby with their baby and their gun is frightened for their lives, and fires back 6-7 shots in original shooter's direction, and original shooter's child is harmed anyway as collateral damage. Would the original shooter be okay with no legal consequences for the person who fired back, because, hey, we're all armed and terrified here?

Where on earth does any of this end? I wish this was me being ridiculous, but obviously the odds of this increases whenever you have a lot of people in a given area. :(
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WOW! You raise such an amazing point. What if there was another person with a gun, saw an unarmed family was being fired upon, and he did a quick diagnosis of the situation, and came to the conclusion that SS was an overall threat to others, so he fired towards him? Perhaps hitting the baby, or more likely, hitting and killing the shooter. I'm not sure how any blame would be placed on the 2nd shooter in this situation, since by all accounts an unarmed family was being fired upon, and I think the conclusion, especially with the 1st shooter dead, would be that he was the one most to blame for this whole incident blowing up.
 
Reasonable & Just said:
I hope we never find out, but I wondered about the legal aspects of this hypothetical scenario: Person fires 6-7 "self-defense/baby defense" shots in Costco. Someone nearby with their baby and their gun is frightened for their lives, and fires back 6-7 shots in original shooter's direction, and original shooter's child is harmed anyway as collateral damage. Would the original shooter be okay with no legal consequences for the person who fired back, because, hey, we're all armed and terrified here?

Where on earth does any of this end? I wish this was me being ridiculous, but obviously the odds of this increases whenever you have a lot of people in a given area.

I think we all believe in the right to self-defense, and I have no issue with legally owned firearms in hands of trained, stable people. I just can't get past the number of shots fired in this particular setting and circumstance (as you can tell) :(
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6 to 7 shots seems excessive to me. Like I've posted before I feel that LE needs their officers to train to a higher level of marksmanship so that the number of shots used to stop the threat is kept to a minimum and the intended target is the only one struck. JMO

Crossfire danger is also something that some officers lack training on. I watched a video where the police had encircled a knife wielding man with their guns drawn.

They where pointing their guns at each other! When the man charged at them they opened fire striking him along with one of the officers.

Not the right way to handle the situation IMO.
 
RANCH said:
6 to 7 shots seems excessive to me. Like I've posted before I feel that LE needs their officers to train to a higher level of marksmanship so that the number of shots used to stop the threat is kept to a minimum and the intended target is the only one struck. JMO
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This, but really for anyone. I will never forget hunter safety and the number of people who never hit the paper target once but still walked away with a card. There has to be more training and respect for what a firearm can do.

RANCH said:
Crossfire danger is also something that some officers lack training on. I watched a video where the police had encircled a knife wielding man with their guns drawn.

They where pointing their guns at each other! When the man charged at them they opened fire striking him along with one of the officers.

Not the right way to handle the situation IMO.
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Just...yikes.
 
Jessthinkin said:
I wonder what meds he was "off of" then.... there is no medicine for autism, so that couldn't have been the condition the meds were for...
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Again, this is not his diagnosis. The family member was describing his behavior. It doesn't mean his diagnosis is autism. Family members (other than the parents) don't seem to know his exact condition. I don't think his parents were discussing his exact condition with other family members. Presumably parents would have to know, but his mother is in a coma and father is in a very serious condition.
 
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And by the way, it's not accurate that those with autism aren't being prescribed medications to treat their symptoms.

"In fact, while the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has approved two drugs for treating irritability associated with the autism (risperidone and aripiprazole), it has yet to approve a medicine for treating autism’s three core characteristics. Nonetheless, medicines such as risperidone and aripiprazole can be beneficial in ways that can ease these core symptoms, because relieving irritability often improves sociability while reducing tantrums, aggressive outbursts and self-injurious behaviors."
Medicines for Treating Autism's Core Symptoms | Autism Speaks
 
We don't know exactly how the officer was attacked. I've read pushed or shoved. Some even likened it to a blind person accidentally bumping into someone or a disabled child for that matter. I'm more inclined to think it was more like a bum rush, something that might knock a man off of his feet. In other words, not an accidental bump. IMO
 
RANCH said:
Why can't I "guess" or speculate on a possible scenario?

I'm not saying it happened and I'm not using it to conclude that the officer acted legally in self defense. I'm on the fence in this case.
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Okay—what about this scenario? Off-duty officer receives an unprovoked, unexpected blow that sends him to the ground. As he gets to his feet, he draws his gun and yells something along the lines of “I’m a police officer—stand back.”

Now, what does he do if the ‘giant’ who knocked him down starts to advance on him? He can’t let his gun be taken away from him by someone who is capriciously violent. His training doesn’t cover the possibility of turning and running. Besides, if he ran, he’d be leaving his wife and baby in the reach of someone who is violent. (Remember the man who tossed the child off the upper-story railing at the Mall. If I had a little child, that story would be living in my mind even more vividly than it does.)

So, if he drew his gun reflexively, what does he then do?

Note that this is all speculation on my part. I have absolutely no idea what happened.
 
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BayouBelle_LA said:
We don't know exactly how the officer was attacked. I've read pushed or shoved. Some even likened it to a blind person accidentally bumping into someone or a disabled child for that matter. I'm more inclined to think it was more like a bum rush, something that might knock a man off of his feet. In other words, not an accidental bump. IMO
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So, it is a reasonable response to shoot someone, who knocks you down, when you are holding your child? And shoot his parents?
 
BayouBelle_LA said:
We don't know exactly how the officer was attacked. I've read pushed or shoved. Some even likened it to a blind person accidentally bumping into someone or a disabled child for that matter. I'm more inclined to think it was more like a bum rush, something that might knock a man off of his feet. In other words, not an accidental bump. IMO
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Maybe I’ve just been lucky, but in my life, I’ve never even had someone bump into me in a way that seriously startled me, let alone knocked me off my feet. Just how common is it?
 
wary said:
Maybe I’ve just been lucky, but in my life, I’ve never even had someone bump into me in a way that seriously startled me, let alone knocked me off my feet. Just how common is it?
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Moreover, his lawyer claims he lost consciousness. Then eventually got up and started shooting (this is according to witness).
 
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