CA - Off Duty Police Officer shoots man and parents after altercation in Costco, Corona, June 2019

[PrairieWind]

When I was frequently being put in danger when the *** I had a protective order on kept breaking into my home and stalking on my property, I was encouraged to use self defense if I could when needed. I was explained in detail on multiple occasions by state police what would justify shooting in self defense, and it was explained that if that happened I would be temporarily arrested until it was determined by the Prosecutor that it was self defense and released. In multiple conversations with multiple LE it was explained to me that there has to be an arrest whenever a shooting occurred. Even though they all knew me and my kids were in danger. Maybe my state is different than there but my situation would seem to be more obviously self defense than in this situation.

That is simply not true about an arrest having to be made when there is a shooting.

 

[RANCH]

That is simply not true about an arrest having to be made when there is a shooting.

If a person is arrested with no probable cause that a crime has been committed can that person sue LE for false arrest?

Or are they out of luck?

 

[Jax49]

That is simply not true about an arrest having to be made when there is a shooting.

Thank you. I was hoping for hear from one of our attorneys.

 

[Sunshine95]

That is simply not true about an arrest having to be made when there is a shooting.

Well that’s interesting- I don’t know why they’d lie to me about it? I’ll have to ask the prosecutor next time I see him about it, as I’m now curious. I had plans in place for my kids in case that happened (I called 911 14 times because of him sneaking around in the middle of the night on my property, stealing things, etc) I’ll let y’all know if/ when I talk to him.

 

[wary]

Well that’s interesting- I don’t know why they’d lie to me about it? I’ll have to ask the prosecutor next time I see him about it, as I’m now curious. I had plans in place for my kids in case that happened (I called 911 14 times because of him sneaking around in the middle of the night on my property, stealing things, etc) I’ll let y’all know if/ when I talk to him.

Unless you know that @PrairieWind is in the same state you live in, I don’t think you can know that they lied to you. (I don’t think the details of arrests are covered by the Constitution to that extent, right?)

All this my speculation only.

Might not even be a state issue. Individual police departments can vary widely in their policies.

 

[kaen]

When I was frequently being put in danger when the *** I had a protective order on kept breaking into my home and stalking on my property, I was encouraged to use self defense if I could when needed. I was explained in detail on multiple occasions by state police what would justify shooting in self defense, and it was explained that if that happened I would be temporarily arrested until it was determined by the Prosecutor that it was self defense and released. In multiple conversations with multiple LE it was explained to me that there has to be an arrest whenever a shooting occurred. Even though they all knew me and my kids were in danger. Maybe my state is different than there but my situation would seem to be more obviously self defense than in this situation.

I don't think an immediate arrest is the case in all situations. Your situation is particular to this person, where there has been involvement by police/legal system. I could see that in an ongoing situation where a death or serious injury occurs that you should expect to be taken into custody. They would have to ascertain if you lured the dead or injured person, whether it was a shoot that was determined to be in self defense, etc given the nature of the relationship/assertions by you of needing a protective order.

Outside of you as a private citizen, I think very few LEO are arrested on the spot. Usually, they are given the benefit of the doubt, the opportunity to call their delegate if they have one/lawyer if not, and taken to the hospital for marking of injuries/blood alcohol level, etc.

 

[RANCH]

Unless you know that @PrairieWind is in the same state you live in, I don’t think you can know that they lied to you. (I don’t think the details of arrests are covered by the Constitution to that extent, right?)

All this my speculation only.

Might not even be a state issue. Individual police departments can vary widely in their policies.

All police have to have probable cause to arrest someone. It's covered in the Fourth Amendment.

"Probable cause" generally refers to the requirement in criminal law that police have adequate reason to arrest someone, conduct a search, or seize property relating to an alleged crime. This requirement comes from the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

Probable cause for arrest exists when facts and circumstances within the police officer's knowledge would lead a reasonable person to believe that the suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. Probable cause must come from specific facts and circumstances, rather than simply from the officer's hunch or suspicion.

If a person acted within the law in defending themselves there would be no probable cause to arrest them. JMO

Probable Cause - FindLaw

 

[wary]

All police have to have probable cause to arrest someone. It's covered in the Fourth Amendment.



If a person acted within the law in defending themselves there would be no probable cause to arrest them. JMO

Probable Cause - FindLaw

Good point, but do they have to assume that it’s self defense, or can the ‘probable cause’ be that you’ve killed someone, and then they’ll investigate?

Also, are all police departments totally scrupulous about people's constitutional rights?

 

[RANCH]

Good point, but do they have to assume that it’s self defense, or can the ‘probable cause’ be that you’ve killed someone, and then they’ll investigate?

Also, are all police departments totally scrupulous about people's constitutional rights?

My link shows us the police have to have facts that a crime has been committed before they can arrest someone. The fact that someone got shot doesn't mean that a crime was committed by the shooter.

The police can't arrest you and then try to find evidence that makes the arrest legitimate. They can temporally detain you and prevent you from leaving while they investigate but that's not the same as arresting someone. JMO

"Detentions" short of arrest do not require probable cause. Such temporary detentions require only "reasonable suspicion." This includes car stops, pedestrian stops and detention of occupants while officers execute a search warrant. "Reasonable suspicion" means specific facts which would lead a reasonable person to believe criminal activity was at hand and further investigation was required.

Probable Cause - FindLaw

 

[RANCH]

Good point, but do they have to assume that it’s self defense, or can the ‘probable cause’ be that you’ve killed someone, and then they’ll investigate?

Also, are all police departments totally scrupulous about people's constitutional rights?

I have no idea how many police departments disregard peoples constitutional rights and IMO it's beyond the topic of this thread since we have not seen anything to suggest it applies to this case.

 

[SoCalDavidS]

I'm still wondering, if another citizen in Costco saw the Killer start firing, and decided since they too were armed, to take out the person who was shooting at 3 unarmed individuals. If that person shot and killed the shooter, would he be charged with anything?

 

[PrairieWind]

Typically the police will not have witnessed the shooting, like in this case. So they have to investigate it to find out what happened. That can take time, especially if a key witness is in the hospital like this case again. Then the police will need to get an arrest warrant. Sometimes the police may move as quick as possible, especially if they think their suspect may take off. But in this case, they know who this guy is and that he isn't going anywhere, so there isn't as much of a rush.
I don't know why this is taking so long but it could be that the mother and father still haven't been interviewed, not sure. Or that they are enhancing the video or trying to get other witnesses at the store tracked down. I have been holding off making any comments on this case since we really don't know many facts yet. I have an opinion on what should happen, but we will see.

 

[mickey2942]

If you google "CCW" and "self defense", there are many websites that discuss exactly what to do if you are involved in a self defense situation.

No, an arrest is not automatic after an altercation involving self defense. But you definitely are not going home right away.

 

[SeesSeas]

If a person is arrested with no probable cause that a crime has been committed can that person sue LE for false arrest?

Or are they out of luck?

Yes, they can sue LE. Here's a recent case near me.
Per COMPLAINT: "without probable cause, falsely arrested the Plaintiff". . . .
The latest court action was last week - LE settlement proposal.
07/03/2019 NOT. OF SERV. OF PROPOSAL FOR SETTLEMENT
https://ccmspa.pinellascounty.org/PublicAccess/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=18081163

Pinellas sheriff facing false arrest lawsuit in stand your ground case
November 27 2018
ST. PETERSBURG — A woman who spent five months behind bars before charges against her were dropped in the death of her husband has sued Pinellas County Sheriff Bob Gualtieri.

Mary Georgia Michielson, 53, said deputies arrested her even though she said she acted in self defense when she stabbed her husband Bruce to death in July 2017.

A prosecutor, citing the state’s stand your ground law, later concluded that the state couldn’t disprove Michielson’s contention and charges against her were dropped in December. Meantime, Michielson said, she lost her apartment, car and possessions, and has been forced to stay with friends. Doctors said she experienced a stroke and seizures after the attack, Michielson said, and she has been dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder — from the stabbing, years living as a victim of domestic violence and the way she was treated by the Sheriff’s Office.
[...]

 

[RANCH]

Yes, they can sue LE. Here's a recent case near me.
Per COMPLAINT: "without probable cause, falsely arrested the Plaintiff". . . .
The latest court action was last week - LE settlement proposal.
07/03/2019 NOT. OF SERV. OF PROPOSAL FOR SETTLEMENT
https://ccmspa.pinellascounty.org/PublicAccess/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=18081163

Pinellas sheriff facing false arrest lawsuit in stand your ground case
November 27 2018
ST. PETERSBURG — A woman who spent five months behind bars before charges against her were dropped in the death of her husband has sued Pinellas County Sheriff Bob Gualtieri.

Mary Georgia Michielson, 53, said deputies arrested her even though she said she acted in self defense when she stabbed her husband Bruce to death in July 2017.

A prosecutor, citing the state’s stand your ground law, later concluded that the state couldn’t disprove Michielson’s contention and charges against her were dropped in December. Meantime, Michielson said, she lost her apartment, car and possessions, and has been forced to stay with friends. Doctors said she experienced a stroke and seizures after the attack, Michielson said, and she has been dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder — from the stabbing, years living as a victim of domestic violence and the way she was treated by the Sheriff’s Office.
[...]

Thank you for posting this SeesSeas.

It's so sad that this woman was victimized by LE for defending herself against an attack.

I hope this lawsuit helps people in the future who are exercising their right to defend themselves by putting LE on notice to obey the Fourth Amendment. JMO

 

[PrairieWind]

That Florida case is a little different because it centers around their "stand your ground" law. Typically those type of laws say such a person cannot be charged. So LE has to come up with evidence to disprove the shooters story in order to make an arrest. So self defense type cases can be handled quite differently in states that have "stand your ground" and those that do not. I would say she has a good case. California does not have a stand your ground law of course.

 

[mickey2942]

We have not yet seen any evidence, but I would like to know what the justification is for use of lethal force, in response to be knocked down.

Unless this officer was in imminent threat to his life, I am not seeing it. The situation seems like French knocked Sanchez down. Sanchez gets up, and shoots him, that fast. Based on what little we know, it seems that French was at least five feet away, with his Father in front of him.

Trying to understand the response with lethal force here.

 

[SuziQ]

Yes, they can sue LE. Here's a recent case near me.
Per COMPLAINT: "without probable cause, falsely arrested the Plaintiff". . . .
The latest court action was last week - LE settlement proposal.
07/03/2019 NOT. OF SERV. OF PROPOSAL FOR SETTLEMENT
https://ccmspa.pinellascounty.org/PublicAccess/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=18081163

Pinellas sheriff facing false arrest lawsuit in stand your ground case
November 27 2018
ST. PETERSBURG — A woman who spent five months behind bars before charges against her were dropped in the death of her husband has sued Pinellas County Sheriff Bob Gualtieri.

Mary Georgia Michielson, 53, said deputies arrested her even though she said she acted in self defense when she stabbed her husband Bruce to death in July 2017.

A prosecutor, citing the state’s stand your ground law, later concluded that the state couldn’t disprove Michielson’s contention and charges against her were dropped in December. Meantime, Michielson said, she lost her apartment, car and possessions, and has been forced to stay with friends. Doctors said she experienced a stroke and seizures after the attack, Michielson said, and she has been dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder — from the stabbing, years living as a victim of domestic violence and the way she was treated by the Sheriff’s Office.
[...]

Again Apple's and oranges. There were no witnesses. It was her word only. She made conflicting statements.

 

[SuziQ]

We have not yet seen any evidence, but I would like to know what the justification is for use of lethal force, in response to be knocked down.

Unless this officer was in imminent threat to his life, I am not seeing it. The situation seems like French knocked Sanchez down. Sanchez gets up, and shoots him, that fast. Based on what little we know, it seems that French was at least five feet away, with his Father in front of him.

Trying to understand the response with lethal force here.

We don't know how far away French was. We don't know what was happening. Or who was where. If someone knocked me out, I'm certainly not going to give them a second chance to do it again.

 

[wary]

We don't know how far away French was. We don't know what was happening. Or who was where. If someone knocked me out, I'm certainly not going to give them a second chance to do it again.

I’m pretty sure that, for self defense, you don’t have a legal requirement to let the other person incapacitate you, before you defend yourself.

One question we don’t have the answer to, at all—what started this all? We haven’t, as far as I know, gotten any hint of a preliminary altercation—just that Mr French hit or shoved SS violently enough to send SS to the ground.

Assuming for the moment that this was unprovoked violence. Did the parents really not know that their son was capable of that? My speculation is that they may have been in denial—the evidence for that being that no relatives seem to know what the son’s problem really was—indicating that the parents didn’t talk about it.

All this purely my speculation.