CA - Off Duty Police Officer shoots man and parents after altercation in Costco, Corona, June 2019

[RANCH]

Pushing a stranger?

Was he still pushing Sanchez after he knocked him to the ground?

Or did he only push him once? Was Sanchez initially pushed from behind? If so how would he know who pushed him?

It's still unclear to me what actually happened that day. JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

They're trained to stop crime and in the use of deadly weapons so I do see a case for them being treated somewhat differently. And I also see a case for there to be some level of panic given how many cops are randomly shot by civilians. It is a scary and dangerous job. But there are still rules and if he was just angry or used his gun while panicked and not thinking, he should be looking at voluntary or involuntary manslaughter, depending on which one.

I want to know what witnesses said and whether their statements were buried, too.

Yes I agree @gitana1 ! There has to be some level of difference because off duty cops are required to step in and protect civilians against crime, they can't just stand and do nothing or run away!

Witnesses yes, and there is actual surveillance camera footage that could be the "linch pin" and help justify or not justify the deadly force.

Studio City, CA

Off-Duty LAPD Officer's Costco Shooting Video To Stay Under Wraps

"...The Los Angeles Board of Police Commissioners voted not to release video of a fatal shooting by an off-duty LAPD officer at a Corona Costco
saying it has no intention of violating an order issued by a Riverside County judge.. ".

 

[gitana1]

Was he still pushing Sanchez after he knocked him to the ground?

Or did he only push him once? Was Sanchez initially pushed from behind? If so how would he know who pushed him?

It's still unclear to me what actually happened that day. JMO

I'm not clear either. Statements indicate he was knocked to the ground and was unconscious, awakening to find his son beside him. There are not statements by witnesses that the victim continued his attack. However, the statements from family that they had time to beg him not to shoot and were trying to explain that their son is ill could indicate the son was continuing to act in a threatening manner.

 

[Angleterre]

Video of LAPD officer shooting disabled man at Corona Costco sealed for 1 year

According to this article, Sanchez is on "desk duty". And they classify this as an "officer involved shooting". My issue is that an officer involved shooting, should be considered only when an officer is actually ON DUTY.

I agree 100%

 

[mickey2942]

I'm very troubled by the decision to delay release of the video for a year. The fact that other videos are released quickly does indicate to me that the LAPD is attempting to cover up some sort of wrongdoing. But not in the classic sense. They know it will come out eventually. But public sentiment can play a part in possible charges (whether and what) and possibly they hope a delay in releasing the info will result in less public interest. I do have a problem with that.

I think it's unlikely to be murder because they would have to prove malice aforethought for both first and second degree murder and I think it could have been more of a case of panic, due to the recent shooting of another off-duty officers standing in line to get food, or sudden rage.

To me, if the facts we are hearing are true, it sounds more like a case of voluntary or involuntary manslaughter:

4.2. Voluntary manslaughter
Penal Code 192(a) PC California's voluntary manslaughter law may be charged when the defendant kills another person during a sudden quarrel or in the heat of passion. This charge is very similar to first-degree murder. The difference is that voluntary manslaughter doesn't involve malice, since the killing is done spontaneously.43

If convicted of voluntary manslaughter, the defendant faces three, six, or eleven years in the state prison.

4.3. Involuntary manslaughter
Prosecutors can charge a defendant with Penal Code 192(b) PC California's involuntary manslaughter law when the defendant kills another person:

1. without malice,
2. without an intent to kill, but
3. with conscious disregard for human life.45

The difference between involuntary manslaughter and killing someone by excusable accident is that with involuntary manslaughter, the defendant at the time of the killing is necessarily involved in either:

1. an unlawful act (not amounting to a felony), or
2. a lawful act which involves a high degree of risk of death or great bodily injury (where the defendant fails to act with the proper caution).46

By contrast, when the defendant accidentally kills another person, he/she is not violating any laws or acting recklessly at the time of the killing.

If convicted of involuntary manslaughter, a defendant faces two, three, or four years in the state prison.48

Penal Code 187 PC - California Murder Laws (first and second degree)

The issue here is that Sanchez states he felt in fear of his life, and the life of his child. His attorney stated that Sanchez reacted after being "violently attacked and knocked to the ground by French. Sanchez was knocked unconscious, and when he came back to consciousness, fired on French.".

So, that puts a completely different direction on charges.

Of course, I have never seen anyone knocked unconscious who was able to jump up and start shooting...maybe the video will enlighten me about this remarkable feat.

 

[RANCH]

I'm not clear either. Statements indicate he was knocked to the ground and was unconscious, awakening to find his son beside him. There are not statements by witnesses that the victim continued his attack. However, the statements from family that they had time to beg him not to shoot and were trying to explain that their son is ill could indicate the son was continuing to act in a threatening manner.

French continuing to act aggressively is something I still feel is a possibility.

I guess it's also possible that French shoved Sanchez to the ground and then immediately switched to a passive demeanor.

I just don't know with the information we have at this point. JMO

 

[RANCH]

The issue here is that Sanchez states he felt in fear of his life, and the life of his child. His attorney stated that Sanchez reacted after being "violently attacked and knocked to the ground by French. Sanchez was knocked unconscious, and when he came back to consciousness, fired on French.".

So, that puts a completely different direction on charges.

Of course, I have never seen anyone knocked unconscious who was able to jump up and start shooting...maybe the video will enlighten me about this remarkable feat.

I'm sure that it's possible for a person who is knocked unconscious to be able to get up and fire a gun once they regain consciousness.

One thing to consider is how do we know that Sanchez actually lost consciousness after being shoved to the ground by French?

I'm sure witness accounts and the store video would help in verifying or refuting that claim. JMO.

 

[Lilibet]

If the parents were shot in the back, it sounds as if they were trying to hold (push) back their son from advancing on Sanchez, while begging Sanchez not to shoot. Sanchez must have already had his gun out if the Frenches told him they didn’t have a gun. We need to see the video, but I think Sanchez probably could have retreated and waited a moment longer before unloading his bullets. I expect his screaming baby messed with his judgement, unfortunately. And that is no excuse for this shooting IMO.

 

[mickey2942]

Family of Man Killed by Off-Duty Officer Wants Prosecution

"Another lawyer for Sanchez, David Winslow, said in June that French knocked the officer to the ground and he briefly lost consciousness.

When Sanchez came to, Winslow said, "he believed his life and his son's life was in immediate danger" and fired his handgun."

My personal opinion is that this officer completely over reacted. This was a rage induced reaction to being pushed. JMO.

 

[RANCH]

If the parents were shot in the back, it sounds as if they were trying to hold (push) back their son from advancing on Sanchez, while begging Sanchez not to shoot. Sanchez must have already had his gun out if the Frenches told him they didn’t have a gun. We need to see the video, but I think Sanchez probably could have retreated and waited a moment longer before unloading his bullets. I expect his screaming baby messed with his judgement, unfortunately. And that is no excuse for this shooting IMO.

I was hoping that the family press conference would give us the details, at least from their side, of what happened. We didn't get that for some reason.

So that leaves me still undecided on whether this was a justified self defense shooting or some form of homicide. JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

I was hoping that the family press conference would give us the details, at least from their side, of what happened. We didn't get that for some reason.

So that leaves me still undecided on whether this was a justified self defense shooting or some form of homicide. JMO

.....Just 2 Cents Only.....

Wouldn't shooting a warning shot or one shot be enough for self defense from an unarmed victim? Multiple shots were fired at the victim, so many that the 2 parents were shot. What was he doing? Laying on the floor and just shooting left and right?

They are not allowed to shoot like that unless the perp is shooting or advancing with a deadly weapon.

New California Law: Police Can Now Only Use Deadly Force When 'Necessary'

Police officers are now only allowed to use deadly force when “necessary” instead of “when reasonable.”



SAY WHAT????? THEY HAVEN'T BEEN DOING THIS ALL ALONG? "APPLES AND ORANGES. "

The new law, which takes effect January 1, 2020, also allows prosecutors to consider the actions of the officer leading up to any shooting and prohibits firing on fleeing felons unless they pose an immediate danger.

THEY ARE JUST NOW, IN 2020, FIGURING OUT THAT YOU DON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE BACK WHEN THEY ARE RUNNING AWAY AND ARE NOT EVEN NEAR ANYONE? NOT A THREAT TO ANYONE?

What on earth have they been doing through these past decades of protect and serve?....

 

[RANCH]

Wouldn't shooting a warning shot or one shot be enough for self defense? Multiple shots were fired at the victim, so many that the 2 parents were shot. What was he doing? Laying on the floor and just shooting left and right?

They are not allowed to shoot like that unless the perp is shooting or advancing with a deadly weapon.

New California Law: Police Can Now Only Use Deadly Force When 'Necessary'

Police officers are now only allowed to use deadly force when “necessary” instead of “when reasonable.”



SAY WHAT????? THEY HAVEN'T BEEN DOING THIS ALL ALONG? "APPLES AND ORANGES. "

The new law, which takes effect January 1, 2020, also allows prosecutors to consider the actions of the officer leading up to any shooting and prohibits firing on fleeing felons unless they pose an immediate danger.

THEY ARE JUST NOW, IN 2020, FIGURING OUT THAT YOU DON'T SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE BACK WHEN THEY ARE RUNNING AWAY AND ARE NOT EVEN NEAR ANYONE? NOT A THREAT TO ANYONE?I

What on earth have they been doing?

Firing "warning shots" is not a good idea IMO. That means there is not an immediate threat of great bodily harm or death if you have time to do that. How do you know it will stop the threat? Also where are these bullets going?

The number of shots are not how people are trained. They are trained to shoot until the threat is stopped. That could be one or it could be many more.

The new California law doesn't apply to this case and I'm not sure if it is different enough from the current standard to make much real world difference. We will see how it plays out in court in the future. JMO

 

[RANCH]

I was hoping that the family would explain in more detail how they got shot in the back.

If their son was not doing anything but standing still and being non-verbal, why was his parents facing him and not officer Sanchez?

The account they give has them pleading with Sanchez to not shoot while they had their backs to him. Why didn't they face him and communicate that way?

Were they actually trying to stop their son from assaulting Sanchez and his child when the shooting occurred ?

There's more to this story that we need to hear. JMO

 

[SoCalDavidS]

During the press conference, the parents said that they have still not been allowed to view the video footage. I feel so very sorry for them. They are not going to receive ANY justice in this matter, which is a sign of the way things are these days.

 

[RANCH]

During the press conference, the parents said that they have still not been allowed to view the video footage. I feel so very sorry for them. They are not going to receive ANY justice in this matter, which is a sign of the way things are these days.

I can understand why they would like to view the video of the shooting. At the same time they are probably the best witness's to the entire event.

Their son can't testify to what happened and officer Sanchez was apparently unconscious during part of this incident.

Why can't they give us the details of what happened since the video is being withheld from public view? JMO.

 

[Lilibet]

I can understand why they would like to view the video of the shooting. At the same time they are probably the best witness's to the entire event.

Their son can't testify to what happened and officer Sanchez was apparently unconscious during part of this incident.

Why can't they give us the details of what happened since the video is being withheld from public view? JMO.

I would imagine that the trauma of being shot in the back would make some details blurry. Everything happened so fast. Plus their recovery has been difficult, which could affect their memory. Maybe as they continue to recover, there will be more details.

 

[RANCH]

I would imagine that the trauma of being shot in the back would make some details blurry. Everything happened so fast. Plus their recovery has been difficult, which could affect their memory. Maybe as they continue to recover, there will be more details.

Those are some good points.

Maybe their memory of the event is subject to those things that you mention along with bias. JMO.

 

[jjenny]

If the parents were shot in the back, it sounds as if they were trying to hold (push) back their son from advancing on Sanchez, while begging Sanchez not to shoot. Sanchez must have already had his gun out if the Frenches told him they didn’t have a gun. We need to see the video, but I think Sanchez probably could have retreated and waited a moment longer before unloading his bullets. I expect his screaming baby messed with his judgement, unfortunately. And that is no excuse for this shooting IMO.

The son was also shot in the back, so I really doubt he was advancing on Sanchez. Perhaps they were trying all to run away?
"Kenneth French also had his back to the officer when he was struck multiple times, family attorney Dale Galipo said."
‘It Could Happen to Anyone’: Family of Man Fatally Shot by Off-Duty LAPD Officer at Corona Costco Speaks Out

 

[jjenny]

Those are some good points.

Maybe their memory of the event is subject to those things that you mention along with bias. JMO.

They want the video released, which certainly suggests they believe it will be in their favor. If it were showing an actual self-defense, I presume police wouldn't have minded to have it released.

 

[apricotpeach]

I listened to part of the press conference (the latter part). A few thoughts:

1) The father mentioned that someone (a man) stood over him after he had been shot and prayed for him. The father asked/said something about his son (Kenneth French) and the man told him that KF was "sleeping". I hope investigators are able to find this man and interview him - given his apparent proximity to the shooting, he may have been an eyewitness.

2) Kenneth French's brother stated that Sanchez went back to Costco the following day (Saturday) and watched the video BEFORE giving his statement. Not sure how the brother got this information, but if this is true, it seems unethical to me. Surely investigators don't show persons of interest or suspects the evidence before asking for their version of what happened? (Or do they? On cop shows, they do sometimes put a piece of physical evidence on the table and ask the perp to explain).

3) The family stated that Sanchez identified himself as a cop (I don't think they specified if he stated which agency he is with - probably doesn't matter). If he did, LAPD may have some liability for his actions. I know there are discussions about whether an off-duty cop is the same as an on-duty cop. Costco doesn't allow weapons unless the person is an off-duty LEO, so presumably Costco feels that an off-duty LEO is not the same as a civilian. Obviously, Costco policy is not law but the options when you go to Costco are either: 1) civilian + can't carry; or 2) LEO (on or off duty) + can carry. He can't mix and match (i.e., can carry but is "just" a civilian).