Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #4

[Occam's Zebra]

So search dogs found the scent of the boys inside the house, but not outside.

But who says the items that the dogs were given (to pick up the scent in the first place) were actually from the boys?

The dogs could have been given clothing items from one of the other kids, right?

 

[Rachelj1]

I wonder about what was in the van that caused them to do the luminol test, and what caused Walker to suspect foul play. Must be something pretty significant to say that, and put the other 4 in protective custody. Why are they are not making a big fuss about any of this. Where are the recent pics that JW said was on their phones? Where are the desperate cries for Orrin, Orson, and the remaining 4, being a thorn in LE side? The silence is deafening. MOO

Do you think maybe the dog did hit on bodily fluid in the van And that’s why they did the luminol test? Yes I absolutely agree that it must’ve been something pretty weird to him for him to say foul play. TW was most likely lying about the pictures on his phone because he probably didn’t think he was going to get that phone back. There are probably not recent pictures of those boys, and their behavior is so bizarre and yes you are absolutely right they should be crying and pleading for those boys and they are not. They are doing nothing.
Moo

 

[JC40]

Re Pronouns.

"Do not let them go on the dirt in the backyard keep them close."

This statement is not assigned to anyone. Who was it who said.? If he doesn't tell us we can't say it for him. Indeed, was it said at all.?

 

[Dre]

I wonder about what was in the van that caused them to do the luminol test, and what caused Walker to suspect foul play. Must be something pretty significant to say that, and put the other 4 in protective custody. Why are they are not making a big fuss about any of this. Where are the recent pics that JW said was on their phones? Where are the desperate cries for Orrin, Orson, and the remaining 4, being a thorn in LE side? The silence is deafening. MOO

I disagree, I think the lack of evidence IS the evidence.
I think right off the bat the parents' demeanor, possibly conflicting wordy awkward changing story and the interviews from others have them thinking they were somehow involved.
I see the luminol being procedural as they had it taken in for evidence, if they took the car and didn't do luminol testing I would be pretty irritated.
I see the suspicion of foul play being just for the fact they can barely piece together if anyones seen the boys in months.
there is still ZERO evidence that they have been hurt, hence the quiet, hence the no named suspects, hence the lack of arrest. it seems they are working with nothing but circumstance at this point, and it takes mounds of circumstantial evidence to bring something like this to court, moo. they will be scouring anything and everything they can for one shred of physical evidence to be their cherry on top for that arrest. moo

Re Pronouns.

"Do not let them go on the dirt in the backyard keep them close."

This statement is not assigned to anyone. Who was it who said.? If he doesn't tell us we can't say it for him. Indeed, was it said at all.?

yes, adoptive dad said this in the interview, to make a show in my opinion what strict and "decent" parents they are. however it came off to me as weird and controlling. moo

 

[Rachelj1]

I disagree, I think the lack of evidence IS the evidence.
I think right off the bat the parents' demeanor, possibly conflicting wordy awkward changing story and the interviews from others have them thinking they were somehow involved.
I see the luminol being procedural as they had it taken in for evidence, if they took the car and didn't do luminol testing I would be pretty irritated.
I see the suspicion of foul play being just for the fact they can barely piece together if anyones seen the boys in months.
there is still ZERO evidence that they have been hurt, hence the quiet, hence the no named suspects, hence the lack of arrest. it seems they are working with nothing but circumstance at this point, and it takes mounds of circumstantial evidence to bring something like this to court, moo. they will be scouring anything and everything they can for one shred of physical evidence to be their cherry on top for that arrest. moo


yes, adoptive dad said this in the interview, to make a show in my opinion what strict and "decent" parents they are. however it came off to me as weird and controlling. moo[/QU

I disagree, I think the lack of evidence IS the evidence.
I think right off the bat the parents' demeanor, possibly conflicting wordy awkward changing story and the interviews from others have them thinking they were somehow involved.
I see the luminol being procedural as they had it taken in for evidence, if they took the car and didn't do luminol testing I would be pretty irritated.
I see the suspicion of foul play being just for the fact they can barely piece together if anyones seen the boys in months.
there is still ZERO evidence that they have been hurt, hence the quiet, hence the no named suspects, hence the lack of arrest. it seems they are working with nothing but circumstance at this point, and it takes mounds of circumstantial evidence to bring something like this to court, moo. they will be scouring anything and everything they can for one shred of physical evidence to be their cherry on top for that arrest. moo


yes, adoptive dad said this in the interview, to make a show in my opinion what strict and "decent" parents they are. however it came off to me as weird and controlling. moo

You make great points! I think they do have evidence though they’re just not saying what the evidence is. I think that they probably have a lot of video coverage from the neighbor surveillance that they’re not showing. Which would maybe show if the boys were ever there and then all of a sudden it’s never shown them walking out of the house again possibly? Or they could have surveillance from when they first moved in and it was only for kids the whole entire time. So there really is just no telling what all they have, but I do think they’re having a really hard time finding out where the boys are.

absolutely, there’s nothing decent in my opinion about not letting your kids play outside. It’s abuse in my opinion.

Moo

 

[JC40]

I disagree, I think the lack of evidence IS the evidence.
I think right off the bat the parents' demeanor, possibly conflicting wordy awkward changing story and the interviews from others have them thinking they were somehow involved.
I see the luminol being procedural as they had it taken in for evidence, if they took the car and didn't do luminol testing I would be pretty irritated.
I see the suspicion of foul play being just for the fact they can barely piece together if anyones seen the boys in months.
there is still ZERO evidence that they have been hurt, hence the quiet, hence the no named suspects, hence the lack of arrest. it seems they are working with nothing but circumstance at this point, and it takes mounds of circumstantial evidence to bring something like this to court, moo. they will be scouring anything and everything they can for one shred of physical evidence to be their cherry on top for that arrest. moo


yes, adoptive dad said this in the interview, to make a show in my opinion what strict and "decent" parents they are. however it came off to me as weird and controlling. moo

Yes adoptive dad said it in the interview. But he didn't say "I" said "Do not let them go on the dirt in the backyard keep them close." Or "she" (adoptive mum) said "Do not let them go on the dirt in the backyard keep them close." So we don't know who gave the "order!

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Child abuse is the physical or psychological/emotional mistreatment of children. In the United States, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) define child maltreatment as any act or series of acts of commission or omission by a parent or other caregiver that results in harm, potential for harm, or threat of harm to a child. Most child abuse occurs in a child's home...There are four major categories of child abuse: neglect, physical abuse, psychological/emotional abuse, and sexual abuse.

Abuse - Wikipedia
*neglect at the very least...

 

[Dre]

You make great points! I think they do have evidence though they’re just not saying what the evidence is. I think that they probably have a lot of video coverage from the neighbor surveillance that they’re not showing. Which would maybe show if the boys were ever there and then all of a sudden it’s never shown them walking out of the house again possibly? Or they could have surveillance from when they first moved in and it was only for kids the whole entire time. So there really is just no telling what all they have, but I do think they’re having a really hard time finding out where the boys are.

absolutely, there’s nothing decent in my opinion about not letting your kids play outside. It’s abuse in my opinion.

Moo

I totally agree! that's all still only circumstantial though, and what I meant by a "lack" of evidence being the actual evidence. lack of the boys on camera, lack of scent out of the house, lack of neighbors coming forward to have seen them, lack of photos of the boys, lack of pleas to the community, lack of a true search being performed by the parents before 911 call... it all builds up and shows a story but not one they can arrest on, yet.
hoping they get some solid physical evidence soon! moo

 

[Ontario Mom]

You make great points! I think they do have evidence though they’re just not saying what the evidence is. I think that they probably have a lot of video coverage from the neighbor surveillance that they’re not showing. Which would maybe show if the boys were ever there and then all of a sudden it’s never shown them walking out of the house again possibly? Or they could have surveillance from when they first moved in and it was only for kids the whole entire time. So there really is just no telling what all they have, but I do think they’re having a really hard time finding out where the boys are.

absolutely, there’s nothing decent in my opinion about not letting your kids play outside. It’s abuse in my opinion.

Moo

It came up early in the thread, for those of us with kids and who have lived in the soCal desert, you just do not let your kids go outside to play, unless you're right there with them, watching them the entire time. Especially kids the age of our missing boys Orrin and Orson.

Now while I actually don't believe the boys were ever in the back yard as has been reported, folks not familiar with the wildlife in the soCal desert need to realize it's full of scorpions, snakes, black widows, fire ants and all sorts of other creepy-crawlies, and that would be something a responsible parent would say, that they don't let their kids out back where the dirt is, and it would resonate with other locals, because they know too.

Having a fence doesn't matter. Having a concrete patio doesn't really matter either (so I'm not really sure why dad used that excuse, unless the dog pees and poops in the back yard and they don't bother to clean it up?) You just do not let little kids outside to play by themselves - because they're too little to protect themselves.

jmo

 

[PommyMommy]

Reviewing. Anything we can add to this dated Dec 22:

In the search for those answers, here's what authorities have done so far in the case, according to Walker.

• Excavated the parents backyard, to make sure the boys weren't buried underneath
• Used search dogs which found the scent of the boys inside the home, but not outside as they were reported to be before disappearing
• Used cadaver dogs inside the home -- no scent of human remains detected.
• Search warrant used to collect items from the home, including adoptive parents cell phones, ipads and other electronic devices. Phones have since been returned.
• Adoptive parents van tested with luminol - no indication of blood found.
• Spoke neighbors in the area. No positive ID of any of the Wests 6 children. Walker says the family only moved to California City in September. They previously lived in Bakersfield.
• Searched adoptive parents previous properties in Bakersfield
• Searched former Saddle Ranch Resort property

According to Walker, the last time the boys were seen by anyone other than the Wests was by their grandmother in Bakersfield. Walker was unable to comment on when that occurred.

Before that, Walker said someone other than family also saw the boys in Bakersfield. Walker was unable to comment on that date as well.
https://www.turnto23.com/news/local...-city-boys-adoptive-parents-officials-confirm

BBM Yes.

• The parents, extended family members, and others have been interviewed.
• The West's four other children were removed from the home.
• LE and volunteers searched a 5-mile radius in the desert.
• Unmarked police cars have surveilled/are surveilling the area.
• LE asked the parents and multiple others to take polygraphs.
• LE has reviewed/is still reviewing security video, body cam footage and interviews.
• LE has searched the homes of (12?) SO's in the area.
• Ongoing analysis of [potential] evidence is taking place in Bakersfield.
• The home has been searched multiple times including the shed, the attic, the chimney and the plumbing.
• Various agencies gathered "statistical" information of the home's perimeter while using drones from above for imaging.
• Measurements and photographs were taken from inside and outside the home and the gate was further examined.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

BBM Yes.

• The parents, extended family members, and others have been interviewed.
• The West's four other children were removed from the home.
• LE and volunteers searched a 5-mile radius in the desert.
• Unmarked police cars have surveilled/are surveilling the area.
• LE asked the parents and multiple others to take polygraphs.
• LE has reviewed/is still reviewing security video, body cam footage and interviews.
• LE has searched the homes of (12?) SO's in the area.
• Ongoing analysis of [potential] evidence is taking place in Bakersfield.
• The home has been searched multiple times including the shed, the attic, the chimney and the plumbing.
• Various agencies gathered "statistical" information of the home's perimeter while using drones from above for imaging.
• Measurements and photographs were taken from inside and outside the home and the gate was further examined.

Excellent! Yes. This is what we need. We are going to spin ourself crazy with theories unless we establish a solid base to study. Facts are so important. What is said is important. What isn’t said is important.

@PommyMommy
Your presence, contributions and participation makes you one of the top assets to WS. I say #1. Your loyalty and consistency has shown through here at WS over the past few years. Since the day I first saw you posting in early 2018. You are my WS rock. You give me the confidence to speak the voice inside my heart, be heard and listened to. Thank you for all you do for us and WS. We appreciate our pommy.

 

[AmandaReckonwith]

Thinking about "Chalk" the dog. I don't believe it even for a minute.

Trezell never says the boys names at the interview, refers to Jacqueline as "my wife", never says her name. Why would he refer to the dog by name.
No, he would say "the dog".

IMO, "chalk the dog" grew legs when it grew views. MOO.

 

[AmandaReckonwith]

Can we combine the fact sheets from imstilla.grandma and PommyMommy to make a complete list and pin it?

 

[PommyMommy]

Excellent! Yes. This is what we need. We are going to spin ourself crazy with theories unless we establish a solid base to study. Facts are so important. What is said is important. What isn’t said is important.

@PommyMommy
Your presence, contributions and participation makes you one of the top assets to WS. I say #1. Your loyalty and consistency has shown through here at WS over the past few years. Since the day I first saw you posting in early 2018. You are my WS rock. You give me the confidence to speak the voice inside my heart, be heard and listened to. Thank you for all you do for us and WS. We appreciate our pommy.

Thank you for your kindness. I appreciate you too!!!

Can we combine the fact sheets from imstilla.grandma and PommyMommy to make a complete list and pin it?

I like this idea. Stand by... MOO

 

[PommyMommy]

JANUARY 25, 2021

Here's what authorities have done so far in the case.

1. Excavated the parents backyard, to make sure the boys weren't buried underneath.
2. Used search dogs which found the scent of the boys inside the home, but not outside as they were reported to be before disappearing.
3. Used cadaver dogs inside the home -- no scent of human remains detected.
4. Search warrant used to collect items from the home, including adoptive parents cell phones, ipads and other electronic devices. Phones have since been returned.
5. Adoptive parents van tested with luminol - no indication of blood found.
6. Spoke neighbors in the area. No positive ID of any of the Wests 6 children. Walker says the family only moved to California City in September. They previously lived in Bakersfield.
7. The parents, extended family members, and others were interviewed.
8. The West's four other children were removed from the home.
9. LE and volunteers searched a 5-mile radius in the desert.
10. Unmarked police cars have surveilled/are surveilling the area.
11. LE asked the parents and multiple others to take polygraphs.
12. LE has reviewed/is still reviewing security video, body cam footage and interviews.
13. LE has searched the homes of (12?) SO's in the area.
14. Ongoing analysis of [potential] evidence is taking place in Bakersfield.
15. The home has been searched multiple times including the shed, the attic, the chimney and the plumbing.
16. Searched adoptive parents previous properties in Bakersfield
17. Searched former Saddle Ranch Resort property
18. Various agencies gathered "statistical" information of the home's perimeter while using drones from above for imaging.
19. Measurements and photographs were taken from inside and outside the home and the gate was further examined.
20. As of 12/29, LE's review of video has shown
    • No sign of the boys leaving by the side gate that TW said he left open
    • No sign of an animal or someone else going in to get the boys
    • Source: Bakersfield Now

According to Walker, the last time the boys were seen by anyone other than the Wests was by their grandmother in Bakersfield. Walker was unable to comment on when that occurred.

Before that, Walker said someone other than family also saw the boys in Bakersfield. Walker was unable to comment on that date as well.

Sources:

• https://www.turnto23.com/news/local...-city-boys-adoptive-parents-officials-confirm
• CA - CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), MEDIA, MAPS & TIMELINE - NO DISCUSSION (websleuths.com)

 

[imstilla.grandma]

This may or not be relevant to this case... I found an article this morning on the Christine Jessops case. LE made a statement that I wish would be said on all cases as gentle reminders. LE’s time is so valuable. I hate to see unnecessary hours spent with little results if any. One tip here, one tip there, do they make sense? I wonder how they vet these tips. I’m wondering how much of the Cal City and Bakersfield Police Departments time has been of no value following ignorant tips. Frustration? Anger? Irritation? How do they cope? They must stay focused on hope as it steadies the rope.

“Tips are great and we love every tip that comes in, but you really have to spend time to go through them to see if they’re worthy of a further followup … each tip is six to eight hours of work,” he said. “We were thinking there had to be a better way,”
'Fortuitous': Probe into Christine Jessop's killer Calvin Hoover went wrong until it went right

 

[momsof3]

This is great! I wish I could add one thing (or know if it happened). There were witnesses in the house, right? Four other kids. We know at some point they were with a grandparent, but they are older (does anyone know the exact ages?), they could say "Orson and Orrin where there when we left for grandma's but not there when we got back". Then LE could look at cellphone data, etc. see where adoptive parents were on that day. I would hope that LE has been able to interview them and they can at least say when they last saw the boys.

JANUARY 25, 2021

Here's what authorities have done so far in the case.

1. Excavated the parents backyard, to make sure the boys weren't buried underneath.
2. Used search dogs which found the scent of the boys inside the home, but not outside as they were reported to be before disappearing.
3. Used cadaver dogs inside the home -- no scent of human remains detected.
4. Search warrant used to collect items from the home, including adoptive parents cell phones, ipads and other electronic devices. Phones have since been returned.
5. Adoptive parents van tested with luminol - no indication of blood found.
6. Spoke neighbors in the area. No positive ID of any of the Wests 6 children. Walker says the family only moved to California City in September. They previously lived in Bakersfield.
7. The parents, extended family members, and others were interviewed.
8. The West's four other children were removed from the home.
9. LE and volunteers searched a 5-mile radius in the desert.
10. Unmarked police cars have surveilled/are surveilling the area.
11. LE asked the parents and multiple others to take polygraphs.
12. LE has reviewed/is still reviewing security video, body cam footage and interviews.
13. LE has searched the homes of (12?) SO's in the area.
14. Ongoing analysis of [potential] evidence is taking place in Bakersfield.
15. The home has been searched multiple times including the shed, the attic, the chimney and the plumbing.
16. Searched adoptive parents previous properties in Bakersfield
17. Searched former Saddle Ranch Resort property
18. Various agencies gathered "statistical" information of the home's perimeter while using drones from above for imaging.
19. Measurements and photographs were taken from inside and outside the home and the gate was further examined.
20. As of 12/29, LE's review of video has shown
    • No sign of the boys leaving by the side gate that TW said he left open
    • No sign of an animal or someone else going in to get the boys
    • Source: Bakersfield Now

According to Walker, the last time the boys were seen by anyone other than the Wests was by their grandmother in Bakersfield. Walker was unable to comment on when that occurred.

Before that, Walker said someone other than family also saw the boys in Bakersfield. Walker was unable to comment on that date as well.

Sources:

• https://www.turnto23.com/news/local...-city-boys-adoptive-parents-officials-confirm
• CA - CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), MEDIA, MAPS & TIMELINE - NO DISCUSSION (websleuths.com)

 

[Algo214]

This is great! I wish I could add one thing (or know if it happened). There were witnesses in the house, right? Four other kids. We know at some point they were with a grandparent, but they are older (does anyone know the exact ages?), they could say "Orson and Orrin where there when we left for grandma's but not there when we got back". Then LE could look at cellphone data, etc. see where adoptive parents were on that day. I would hope that LE has been able to interview them and they can at least say when they last saw the boys.

I would bet that has been done but is being kept close to the vest because in and of itself may not be enough to get an arrest warrant, for example

jmo

 

[NCHydrangea]

I’d be interested to know how many car seats were in the van, but I’m sure LE would never disclose that information. It really wouldn’t prove anything because there are parents who don’t use car seats, but I’m just curious.

 

[Knox]

Thinking about "Chalk" the dog. I don't believe it even for a minute.

Trezell never says the boys names at the interview, refers to Jacqueline as "my wife", never says her name. Why would he refer to the dog by name.
No, he would say "the dog".

IMO, "chalk the dog" grew legs when it grew views. MOO.

Yes!! I wish that silly rumor would quit receiving any playtime. If "chalk" was referring to their dog, he would have made reference to whether the "chalk" was also missing.