Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #5

[MsBetsy]

Thanks, Moe. I noted an interesting statement by the Chief while he was discussing investigative tools - dogs, polygraphs, etc.

He said that dogs are not always 100% accurate and that night that the dogs alerted inside the house but didn’t alert outside doesn’t mean anything.

Then at the 9:12 mark he says, “Just like uh, um, people keep asking about a polygraph; polygraph is not admissible in court. Is it a tool? Sure. Can, can I believe at some point that maybe that you are being deceptive by the results of the test? Sure. But it’s only a tool. It’s only a tool to help us go in a certain direction. But right now um, um, we don’t have any of that. Unfortunately.”

Was that a slip? I think Perla caught it too because she immediately followed up by asking if the adoptive parents took polygraphs. He answered, “I can’t comment on that.”

A few other things I noted:

About 17:09, Perla asks about the last time the adoptive parents were interviewed. The Chief says, “Uh, I think formally interviewed it’s been, it’s been, several weeks.”

Perla then asks if the members of the birth family have been cooperative. The Chief says, “Uhhhh, they’ve, yes.” The last time he spoke with RD was on a conference call the day after the boys went missing. He said other people have been in contact with her but he has not.

17:59 - Perla asks him if anyone has been instructed not to talk to the media. The Chief said, “Not by us.”

When asked about evidence taken from the home, he mentioned electronics, clothes, bedding, and things from the back yard.

MOO

I really would have liked to know if LE has solid evidence that the boys had lived in the house in Cal City. If they have their clothes and bedding, I would think they would know.

 

[Spartygirl]

This is just one of those cases that captures everyone's attention. Dunno why.

Because it is little children !!! JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

No polygraph?? Wonder if someone refused it or were never asked to take it? My opinion only.

I thought he said they were offered polygraphs. Anyone remember?

 

[Spartygirl]

I thought he said they were offered polygraphs. Anyone remember?

They were offered
Authorities asked adoptive parents of California City boys to take lie detector test (turnto23.com)

 

[MoeInVA]

It sounds to me like they don't know much more than they did in the first few weeks. Last time the chief was asked specifics about who last saw the boys he wouldn't comment. I'm sure they have a timeline but they are not going to reveal that information. He did say the other children said they last saw the boys on the 19th.

This case may not be solved for a long time. Either someone needs to talk or the boys need to be found. Imo

BBM
Yes but interesting that he refused to repeat the date of siblings’ last sighting and reconfirm that in this interview. Might be meaningful, might not. He might have just been trying to avoid follow up questions about the kids’ statements. My guess is those kids had a lot to share. JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

BBM
Yes but interesting that he refused to repeat the date of siblings’ last sighting and reconfirm that in this interview. Might be meaningful, might not. He might have just been trying to avoid follow up questions about the kids’ statements. My guess is those kids had a lot to share. JMO

Oh really? I haven't listened to the whole thing yet. So he was asked when the other kids last saw them and this time he said he wasn't going to comment? That is interesting, since he didn't hesitate before.

 

[MoeInVA]

Oh really? I haven't listened to the whole thing yet. So he was asked when the other kids last saw them and this time he said he wasn't going to comment? That is interesting, since he didn't hesitate before.

Yup. When asked when the siblings last saw them this time the Chief said he couldn’t comment on any of the interviews with the other kids. (16:25 ish)

 

[MoeInVA]

BBM RSBM
Does this mean that there are newer pics of the boys?

Not necessarily. The wording was not specific. He said there were photos on the phone but he did not specify that they were of O and O or that they were recent.

JM amateur O- I believe that LE would have released any recent photos of the boys that they felt could be helpful to finding them. It’s possible they would withhold recent photos if they felt they weren’t clear enough to help at all or if they showed clear signs of abuse or neglect and law enforcement was not yet wanting to press charges.

As I noted upthread, the FBI very quickly released a photo of the missing Amish girl Linda Stoltzfoos mocked up to show her with her hair down and more typical street clothes.

FBI has all the images on the Wests tech. They could release them or ask NCMEC to do an age progression on existing photos if desired (typically done for photos that are two years old, but in the case of these youngsters could be valuable now). JMO there must be reasons that neither of those things has happened.

 

[musemoon]

Not necessarily. The wording was not specific. He said there were photos on the phone but he did not specify that they were of O and O or that they were recent.

JM amateur O- I believe that LE would have released any recent photos of the boys that they felt could be helpful to finding them. It’s possible they would withhold recent photos if they felt they weren’t clear enough to help at all or if they showed clear signs of abuse or neglect and law enforcement was not yet wanting to press charges.

As I noted upthread, the FBI very quickly released a photo of the missing Amish girl Linda Stoltzfoos mocked up to show her with her hair down and more typical street clothes.

FBI has all the images on the Wests tech. They could release them or ask NCMEC to do an age progression on existing photos if desired (typically done for photos that are two years old, but in the case of these youngsters could be valuable now). JMO there must be reasons that neither of those things has happened.

When my mom was murdered, they took her tech as evidence. They copied everything on her phone and still have it in evidence storage. We asked for pictures from it, (recent photos as we were missing her, the murder was sudden and violent) and they refused to give us access to her phone. They have had it for 2.5 years (trial has not started yet) and said when tech is part of the evidence it usually will not be returned until after sentencing. It is probably different with the Wests as they weren't murdered and maybe their phones aren't evidence, but they might be and if that is the case I think unless LE thought the photos were useful, they'd keep them with the evidence, especially if they showed something that would help their investigation.

 

[Number8]

When my mom was murdered, they took her tech as evidence. They copied everything on her phone and still have it in evidence storage. We asked for pictures from it, (recent photos as we were missing her, the murder was sudden and violent) and they refused to give us access to her phone. They have had it for 2.5 years (trial has not started yet) and said when tech is part of the evidence it usually will not be returned until after sentencing. It is probably different with the Wests as they weren't murdered and maybe their phones aren't evidence, but they might be and if that is the case I think unless LE thought the photos were useful, they'd keep them with the evidence, especially if they showed something that would help their investigation.

I'm so sorry for your loss @musemoon ... how awful. Wishing you strength (and justice) for the trial ahead. <3

 

[Bbybluz]

edited within timeframe to respond to MsBetsy because I got oops lol

I really would have liked to know if LE has solid evidence that the boys had lived in the house in Cal City. If they have their clothes and bedding, I would think they would know.

Remember IMOO I don’t believe Chief Jon Walker’s words were their clothes their bedding I think he said it in general like ...clothing & bedding. Might have been told they belonged to the boys or maybe LE took ALL bedding & an assortment of clothing to go to the lab.

No polygraph?? Wonder if someone refused it or were never asked to take it? My opinion only.

MOO would be a refusal due to advice from a lawyer. Chief Jon Walker said at one time in an interview that everyone close to the boys were ask to take a polygraph.

 

[Bbybluz]

When my mom was murdered, they took her tech as evidence. They copied everything on her phone and still have it in evidence storage. We asked for pictures from it, (recent photos as we were missing her, the murder was sudden and violent) and they refused to give us access to her phone. They have had it for 2.5 years (trial has not started yet) and said when tech is part of the evidence it usually will not be returned until after sentencing. It is probably different with the Wests as they weren't murdered and maybe their phones aren't evidence, but they might be and if that is the case I think unless LE thought the photos were useful, they'd keep them with the evidence, especially if they showed something that would help their investigation.

@musemoon I am so so sorry something so mean had to happen to your mom, you & your family!! I hope justice will be swift & harsh on those involved!! You are in my prayers.

Thank you for the insight & first hand knowledge of the evidence processing.

 

[Limecat]

When my mom was murdered, they took her tech as evidence. They copied everything on her phone and still have it in evidence storage. We asked for pictures from it, (recent photos as we were missing her, the murder was sudden and violent) and they refused to give us access to her phone. They have had it for 2.5 years (trial has not started yet) and said when tech is part of the evidence it usually will not be returned until after sentencing. It is probably different with the Wests as they weren't murdered and maybe their phones aren't evidence, but they might be and if that is the case I think unless LE thought the photos were useful, they'd keep them with the evidence, especially if they showed something that would help their investigation.

God Bless your Mother and all of you who love her. Offering prayers for strength and comfort while going through this awful time. I had no idea that they would keep tech that long if they’d already gotten everything off of it.

 

[rosesfromangels]

When my mom was murdered, they took her tech as evidence. They copied everything on her phone and still have it in evidence storage. We asked for pictures from it, (recent photos as we were missing her, the murder was sudden and violent) and they refused to give us access to her phone. They have had it for 2.5 years (trial has not started yet) and said when tech is part of the evidence it usually will not be returned until after sentencing. It is probably different with the Wests as they weren't murdered and maybe their phones aren't evidence, but they might be and if that is the case I think unless LE thought the photos were useful, they'd keep them with the evidence, especially if they showed something that would help their investigation.

Thank you so much for being here and sharing knowledge that only someone who has gone through what you have would know, and understand. You helping offer up ideas on these cases is a wonderful way to honor your dear mother. God Bless You.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[papixee]

So is this going to be another case that never gets solved and whoever is responsible (cough cough) gets away with it? I hope not. It seems like the law is more and more on the side of the criminal and I am tired of it.

 

[rosesfromangels]

So is this going to be another case that never gets solved and whoever is responsible (cough cough) gets away with it? I hope not. It seems like the law is more and more on the side of the criminal and I am tired of it.

Not a chance. Stay tuned.

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[MsBetsy]

So is this going to be another case that never gets solved and whoever is responsible (cough cough) gets away with it? I hope not. It seems like the law is more and more on the side of the criminal and I am tired of it.

I don't think the law is on the side of criminals. Ensuring the defendant gets a fair trial is the best way to ensure justice for the victims and family. There's no point in making an arrest too soon only to allow the criminals to be released because there is not enough evidence against them.

 

[katydid23]

Anyone else getting the vibe that they have absolute (as my grandmother would say) “bubkis”? What I took from the interview:
- no reason to believe the kids aren’t alive = aka no real clues
- his “opinion” is that they didn’t leave the area without an adult making it happen but emphasizes it’s only his opinion = again, no clues
- “no specific suspects”
- IMO he seemed fuzzy on who the last people were (NOT the APs) that saw O&O... he thought it was grandparents but “I don’t know the exact dates”... if you’re working a missing children case isn’t this kind of timeline the FIRST thing you’d establish?? How does he not know these details?
- haven’t interviewed the APs in several weeks... so strange

MOO but I’m starting to lose a bit of faith in LE on this one. The Cal City police at least. Would love to hear from the FBI. I hope I’m wrong. The more time passes statistically the chances get worse.

You may be right, but in his defense, he might be speaking in vague terms, purposely.

It might be better for him to be vague about how much he knows, and if there are specific suspects---so not to give the suspects any solid information.

--It is possible that he does know the exact timeline and he does have specific suspects in mind, but does not want to share that with the public, just yet.

--the statement ='no reason to believe the kids aren’t alive' is a standard and commonly used LE statement, when there is no solid evidence of death

--Probably the reason he hasn't formally interviewed the AP's is because they lawyered up and shut down. That is not the sheriff's fault.

-- his “opinion” is that they didn’t leave the area without an adult making it happen but emphasizes it’s only his opinion==I think that is his way at taking a swing at the AP's, but saying it is his opinion takes him off the hook, legally

 

[katydid23]

God Bless your Mother and all of you who love her. Offering prayers for strength and comfort while going through this awful time. I had no idea that they would keep tech that long if they’d already gotten everything off of it.

I think that they have to keep the devices because otherwise, the defense could claim the pictures were incomplete, or altered, etc, etc.

But if the state still has the phone or the laptop or the camera, it is easier to verify that the data has not been altered or tampered with.

 

[PommyMommy]

FEB 26, 2021
Cal City gives informants more incentive | News | avpress.com
A new policy for reward money has been adopted by the City to encourage residents to come forward with information that could lead to the arrest and conviction of those who have committed crimes.

[...]

The policy for the reward money was spurred after Orson West, three, and Orrin West, four, were reported missing on Dec. 21.

[...]

The California City Police Department is still actively investigating their disappearance with the assistance of the Bakersfield Police Department, Kern County Sheriff’s Department and the FBI.

[...]